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03-16-2010, 05:21 PM | #1 |
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Methanol injection: cure-all, or cancer?
Now for some further information on the G-Power failures.
First car: The kit was sold as an SK I and then upgraded as an SK II during the install. G-POWER shipped this supercharger with the indication that the car should only get 100 AKI octane gas. It seems that this indication wasn’t clear enough or well communicated because the information never given to the end customer. The customer was driving with 91 AKI octane, the engine was knocking, the software couldn’t correct the ignition enough which had a bad consequence, the engine blew up… Anyway G-POWER helped the customer. Second car: The second kit was sold as an SK II with the setting for 91 AKI octane but was installed with Methanol injection. This was installed without permission. Methanol injection didn’t allow to measure the knocking correctly (because of the type of knock detection system these cars come with) so the engine blew up on the dyno…As with the first kit, customer was helped with the engine. Lesson to be learnt for buyers of any supercharger kits - don't use Methanol! 1st Lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - don't listen to anyone and always supply a tune for worst case scenario! 2nd lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - If people use methanol or anything that is not authorised don't replace the engine - why? Once you replace an engine you have in some way accepted responsibility and you get blamed for the failure instead! The first supercharger kit from the above is still on a car and the tune is for 100 AKI octance only yet owner was still running 91 Octane!! I'm sure the above will cause some controversy but I can assure you, a few of us have done quite alot of research on this topic and aquired information from many sources. Explains why no other engine around the world blew because of knocking! I hope this is finally put to bed and I sincerely hope ESS and Gintani don't have the same problems. However, this is likely as it is rumoured that a few people are trying to add methanol to their kits also and the inevitable WILL happen. If this happens then it's likely your tune will blamed! |
03-16-2010, 07:15 PM | #2 |
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Well all I can say is I don't over heat!
however if the cutting was less I'd be happier but I can live with it. I mean you going to get a supercharger not an intake system. thanks for the information on everything !
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03-17-2010, 12:02 AM | #3 | |
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Methanol injection: cure-all, or cancer?
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03-17-2010, 01:20 AM | #4 |
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Last edited by tightie; 03-17-2010 at 01:32 AM.. |
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03-17-2010, 01:34 AM | #6 | |
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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03-17-2010, 01:41 AM | #7 | |
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Again I am no expert, I know what I know from researching since I bought an ESS VT2 575 kit for my DCT. I think the G Power kit looks the best, but I suppose you just get a feeling from the people you work with. ESS, Gintani and G Power have kits that work, its unfortunate that GPower had an initial setback, but hey if the kit works and clients are happy then all good. I would love to see a dyno done on the same day between G Power Gintani and ESS all with same boost of 6PSI and same RON fuel. I would like to see operating temps of oil, coolant and all other data. Also db readings of sound of blower. We can all agree that the following is best: 1. High whp 2. Quiet operation 3. Low Temps 4. Safe Tune iro fuel/air rations etc This will be the final chapter in ending speculation of who the best is. HOWEVER you will probably find that where one is higher HP, it will be hotter and noisier or vice versa. Its a zero sum gae and I highly doubt one kit will excel in all three categories, but I would love to be proved wrong There are forum members here with a kit from all three companies, why not coordinate this properly once and for all. Any one up to the job, it would make for the most popular thread of all time. I am thrilled to be receiving my ESS kit, it ships in two days Sexy times its nice!!!! |
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03-17-2010, 03:18 AM | #8 |
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Oh I see! You're an ESS customer! No wonder you're having a pop at the G-Power!.....just kidding
The main point is that your joining the supercharger club and you will basically have one hell of a fast M3! With regards to the individual brands, it's important that facts are made clear and any one brand is not given an unfair disadvantage. As for testing them both against each other - that would be interesting! Until then, you can do some testing of your own against my results once your charger is fitted. In 24+ degC I did over 20 consecutive dyno pulls with no breaks. Oil temperature remained under 100 degC and coolant was no hotter than if I did the same thing on a NA setup. Also, the power remained consistent. On the road (Private) - 6th gear pulls reaching the very top of the rpm range (yes, this is going very very fast) - no issues. Last edited by Sales@Evolve; 03-17-2010 at 03:31 AM.. |
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03-17-2010, 03:25 AM | #9 | |
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Other brands do not give permission to run methanol also. I guarantee you though, people will use it and you will hear more stories of motors blowing. |
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03-17-2010, 07:54 AM | #10 | |
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Drew, Sal does not have you questioning your decision to use WM on your Gintani SC does it? |
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03-17-2010, 09:42 AM | #11 | |
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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03-17-2010, 09:45 AM | #12 |
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No, but Sal seems like a smart/reasonable guy, the claim he is making is based on one car, that motor may have blown for other reasons. I have NEVER heard of a car blowing up because it was running Meth, but if there's something about this cars KD that turns off when WM is used, then that needs to be explained further, IMHO.
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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03-17-2010, 03:40 PM | #13 |
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What makes sense to me and what makes sense to you all depends on our understanding of how the MSS6x ECU's work.
We are not in the business of simply 'making things up'. Feel free to go and look into the technicalities yourself. You cannot argue with the ECU strategy and how the sensors work. The v8 engine of the M3 uses a very sophisticated method to detect knock. Whilst the conmen method is to use a probe operation like, in plain speaking, a microphone that actually “hears” the knocking of the engine, the M3 uses the ion current of the spark plug to detect engine knocking. When methanol injection is used in combination with a tuned software that uses the standard settings for the ion current measurement, the engine is not capable of recognizing engine knocking properly. If you want to prove this theory to yourself, get a standard V8 and put methanol through it and see what happens. If the knock detection system was similar to the older systems then no problem would arise. I am not going to argue with anyone or force my opinion upon them. You either believe or you don't. Anyone who understands the ECU will confirm the above. The only thing I ask is that we do not rubbish each other's opinion without having some hard evidence first. So I am saying, based on my understanding of the ECU, that methanol will cause problems with the knock detection system (and it does!). If you want to rubbish that statement then please do so with some technical information rather than 'it doesn't make sense'. It's no different than me trying to explain prime number theory to you and you coming back and saying it makes no sense. It makes no sense because you don't understand it. No offence intended here but I will not be giving lessons on knock detection systems and the ball is now in your court to show me (and the rest of us) that methanol bares no effect on the knock detecion system. Good luck! The more I explain the more information I will need to provide and then that information in turn will make no sense either. Just as a final note - on this very forum another supercharger company has clearly stated that methanol should not be used with their setup. They obviously have reason for saying this. Last edited by Sales@Evolve; 03-17-2010 at 03:47 PM.. |
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03-17-2010, 04:05 PM | #16 | |
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I understand the Ion current knock sensor device and what its specifications are. The tuners that can change the calibration values for the ion current measurements can change what parameters the ecu will recognize knock at. Adding methanol is a good and easy way to raise octane levels, your motor shouldn't be knocking if you have a good tuner already, adding meth to it doesnt mean the motor will start knocking. Do you know what parameters the S65 knock detection software is set at? Do you know how methanol really effects the values being read? You do know adding race gas burns differently as well, will this blow your motor as well? For the final note. Has that company tested methanol and how it changes the values the knock system readings? That company also said they are against meth with the S54 motors, why is that? Last edited by tazam3; 03-17-2010 at 04:19 PM.. |
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03-17-2010, 04:28 PM | #17 | |
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Last edited by Sales@Evolve; 03-17-2010 at 04:38 PM.. |
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03-17-2010, 04:51 PM | #18 |
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Race gas depending on what type can burn like methanol. Some burn very fast and some burn very slow, do you think this will effect the knock system? In turn will this blow the motor?
What im trying to get at is that meth wont blow your motor. It is supposed to prevent it. If your motor is knocking then your tuner needs a better job. Ive never had a knocking problem and thats wit my S54 going through a vast number of setups. Yes methanol might effect some knock control systems, however that also depends on what parameters that specific knock control system is set at. If your motor is tuned right (which its supposed to) then adding meth should have no negative effects at all. But i do get what your trying to explain about the knock system, but simply stating adding meth will inevitably cause your motor to blow is not accurate. Some tuners like to mention they dont use meth to sound like they tune better then others. I dont like that. |
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03-17-2010, 04:59 PM | #19 | |
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I have to agree. I don't like it when tuners say that either. I'm not going to say anymore. The more I say the more I am likely to offend you and I really don't want to do that. So we'll just agree to disagree. I'm sure someone else will be along with hard evidence that methanol has no effect on the ion knock detection system. |
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03-17-2010, 05:17 PM | #20 | |
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Can you give hard evidence that methanol injected into the S65 causes the knock control to stop working? Can you also give hard evidence that methanol causes the S65 to blow? |
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03-17-2010, 06:34 PM | #21 | |
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I think some important info can come out of this, but I'd like to know why the burning properties of Meth deactivate KD? Don't you? Would C16 race fuel do the same? It burns different than 91, etc. But if KD is simply turned off to run a SC, then it would seem that Meth would actually help control knock, not the other way around, so some clarification is in order. A main question is what was the timing set at on these two cars? What actually happened? Cracked piston? Ring lands gone? Also now, unless I'm taking this out of context, Sal is hinting that race fuel could possibly do the same to the S65 KD? It appears there is no middle ground here, no opinions, either Meth blows up the S65 and makes ion flow shut off for some reason or it doesn't, there is No definitive explanation here on how or why.
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH |
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03-17-2010, 07:27 PM | #22 | ||
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I am prepared to run a experiment on my S85 which also has a ion knock system and see how methanol will affect the knock readings. I will also try convince M&M to do the same on his S65. We both have flash tuning capability so it should not be so hard to do a Mythbusters test. As a disclaimer and since I know the ban hammer is knocked around (excuse the pun) often I would like to say that I am a big fan of GPower and I think there S65 kit is the best of the four available and am even considering there kit of my S85 so in now way is this a bashing post.
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