Amica Insurance - HPDE Coverage

[LiM3y]

This just blew me away, but my Amica Auto insurance covers me for HPDE events. As long as it is not racing, preparing for racing or time trials, I am covered. An unfortunate sequence of events lead to this being discussed with the agent, which led to her saying "I have to check with the underwriter on whether we will continue to hold your policy"...WTF...shit...dumbass......and then she calls back and relays the above information to me, stating that she was "surprised too"

Obviously, I feel like an a-hole, since I have been paying for track insurance for the last 3-4 years (I don't want to do the math), but at least I know now and can save some cash.

[Black Gold]

How did this "come up" with your agent?

No way in hell id discuss that...if I were to be in that position

Glad it ended up ok

[White 13]

Seems like a person has to ask to find out.

[blankstar43]

"We do not cover any physical damage to an auto being driven in or preparing for any racing, speed or demolition
contest or stunting activity of any nature, whether or not prearranged or organized."

This is how it is worded in my policy. Not sure if I'd be covered or not, but my guess is they would fight it regardless.

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

...and then she calls back and relays the above information to me

Well, you inquired already so too late to fix that but I wouldn't rely on a phone conversation with an agent for future track coverage, look for the actual text in the full Amica contract.

[The HACK]

15 minutes with your Amica agent could save you hundreds on your future track insurance.

[Dbcgolf1]

Originally Posted by LiM3y

This just blew me away, but my Amica Auto insurance covers me for HPDE events. As long as it is not racing, preparing for racing or time trials, I am covered. An unfortunate sequence of events lead to this being discussed with the agent, which led to her saying "I have to check with the underwriter on whether we will continue to hold your policy"...WTF...shit...dumbass......and then she calls back and relays the above information to me, stating that she was "surprised too"

Obviously, I feel like an a-hole, since I have been paying for track insurance for the last 3-4 years (I don't want to do the math), but at least I know now and can save some cash.

Are you sure about this. In my Amica policy, there is this item under EXCLUSIONS:

4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed
for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed
contest.

I guess HDPE is not racing.

Dave

[surlynkid]

Originally Posted by Dbcgolf1

Are you sure about this. In my Amica policy, there is this item under EXCLUSIONS:

4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed
for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed
contest.

I guess HDPE is not racing.

Dave

I still don't want to be the guy to test this theory that some folks think they are covered. so what. your rates will go sky high afterwards. i like having 25+ years with no accidents or claims. racing is expensive (HPDE or otherwise). you gotta pay to play if you want insurance.

[CBS]

OP: I have had Amica insuance for 30+ years and they are awesome. HOWEVER I didn't know they cover HPDE's. Do you have a special policy OR can you recall which Agent you spoke with? I'd like to explore this further with my policy.

Thanks,
Chris

[LittleBlueBMW]

I have Amica and am 99 percent sure they exclude any damage at facility designated for motorsport. That would mean anything during racing or open lapping for HPDE, even a fender bender in the track's parking lot (technically).

[Estoril Blue]

One phrase some policies use that cover a broad range is:

".... or any event held on any surface otherwise used for racing or speed events".


Keep in mind that one should not only consider repairs to your own car - but damage that you may cause to another vehicle(s) or injury to a person(s). This latter part can be far more expensive than repairing your own car.

[gobuffs]

Same company may have different language in different states. What might be covered in one state by a company might not be covered in another state by the same company.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

Keep in mind that one should not only consider repairs to your own car - but damage that you may cause to another vehicle(s) or injury to a person(s). This latter part can be far more expensive than repairing your own car.

This is what i would be most concerned about

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

Keep in mind that one should not only consider repairs to your own car - but damage that you may cause to another vehicle(s) or injury to a person(s). This latter part can be far more expensive than repairing your own car.

Isn't it every man for themselves out there? Everyone signs a waiver of liability upon entering. My assumption (perhaps false) is that if someone hits me, I'm responsible for everything and if I hit someone, well too bad for them.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Isn't it every man for themselves out there? Everyone signs a waiver of liability upon entering. My assumption (perhaps false) is that if someone hits me, I'm responsible for everything and if I hit someone, well too bad for them.

Tell that to all the people/companies that were sued by the family of Ben Keaton.

.

[PandaM3]

Some if the insurance companies consider things like HPDE as not racing. It's not a competition out on the track. The main purpose of an HPDE is to learn to explore the limits of our cars in a safe environment. When we push our cars on the track, we tend to overall be safer drivers.

As long as its an HPDE, I know my insurance AAA covers me. I asked them specifically and they confirmed. Additionally, they even told me that when I am offroading in my truck, I am still covered as long as I am on a road/ trail found on an official map.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by aus

Tell that to all the people/companies that were sued by the family of Ben Keaton.

.

I'm not that familiar with this, but wasn't that a death of driver and passenger and the passenger's wife sued the driver's estate for wrongful death? I won't take passengers because of the liability. It's foolish and not allowed at many of the events I go to. Unless I'm incorrect on this, it has nothing to do with driver to driver accidents.

BTW, for those interested. I have Safeco insurance (which is fantastic) and their wording goes like this as part of exclusions:

15. Loss to your covered auto or any non-owned auto while it is:
a. Operating on a surface designed or used for racing. This does not apply to an organized and controlled event that is not a speed, performance, stunt, or demolition event;
b. participating in a high performance driving or racing instruction course or school; or
c. preparing for, practicing for, used in, or competing in any prearranged or organized:
1. race activity; or
2. speed, performance, stunt, or demolition contest or exhibition.

Dammit.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Isn't it every man for themselves out there? Everyone signs a waiver of liability upon entering. My assumption (perhaps false) is that if someone hits me, I'm responsible for everything and if I hit someone, well too bad for them.

1. That is incorrect.

2. The existence of a waiver doesn't preclude suits - especially suits where negligence occurred/is alleged. Waivers generally are written only to protect the facility or event sponsor. HPDE event sponsors (and even facilities) ARE successfully sued. One very well-known and respected national HPDE sponsor has been entangled in a VERY expensive lawsuit for well over a year.

3. Liability waivers favor the author. They are regularly overcome by courts finding that the facility, sponsor or driver had a duty that they failed to discharge - or that their acts or omissions caused injury or damage to another. That is liability.

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I'm not that familiar with this, but wasn't that a death of driver and passenger and the passenger's wife sued the driver's estate for wrongful death? I won't take passengers because of the liability. It's foolish and not allowed at many of the events I go to. Unless I'm incorrect on this, it has nothing to do with driver to driver accidents.

More for the broader readership than just you - keep in mind that Instructors are passengers.

[CSBM5]

Just to reemphasize: Insurance policies by the same company can have significantly different exclusions all depending on the state where the policy is written. It's conceivable that two cars could crash into each other, both with insurance by the same company, and since one was from a different state, that car/person would be fully covered while the other driver/car is totally exposed.

Re waivers: The issue here is gross negligence. If such can be proved in a court, the waiver means nothing essentially to the parties accused of such.

Up until a couple of months ago, North Carolina, with its highly regulated insurance industry, did not allow insurers to exclude HPDEs, car on a track, etc. The insurance industry battled for years, and they finally paid off the right people, er I mean they won the argument. Now *all* policies in NC have been changed, effective on that date, to eliminate coverage and reduce the liability coverage allowed to be written to just $32k for a car/person at the track.

This is important, and few I think have realized what happened. For example, for those with an umbrella liability policy, that is now not valid for covering some horrific event you caused on a track. Since the wording of the auto policy (highly regulated by insurance commission) specifically states that liability coverage under these conditions is limited to just $32k, the umbrella policy would never get "triggered." i.e. The limits of the car policy, typically 100k/300k, have to be reached to then have the umbrella take over. Since that is overruled by the $32k limit for track events, no umbrella coverage. Insurance industry lobbyists aren't stupid I suppose.

Oh, and of course, there is zero comp/collision coverage for your own car now in NC, but that would be of little concern if you were involved in a horrific situation where gross negligence overrides the waiver. The cost of your car would be trivial compared to the potential liability damage.

[Transfer]

It's a good thing I don't have any money.
Thanks for all the good info.

[DallasBoosted]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

1. That is incorrect.

2. The existence of a waiver doesn't preclude suits - especially suits where negligence occurred/is alleged. Waivers generally are written only to protect the facility or event sponsor. HPDE event sponsors (and even facilities) ARE successfully sued. One very well-known and respected national HPDE sponsor has been entangled in a VERY expensive lawsuit for well over a year.

3. Liability waivers favor the author. They are regularly overcome by courts finding that the facility, sponsor or driver had a duty that they failed to discharge - or that their acts or omissions caused injury or damage to another. That is liability.

My knowledge of the case is that the money was primarily paid by Porsche and California Speedway; partly because these were the deep pockets, but also because 1> Gross Negligence wasn't covered by the waiver (in many states gross negligence cannot be waived), and the conduct of the flagman/setup of the walls rose to the level of gross negligence; and 2> porsche had no waiver.

Assumption of the risk is going to shut down most of these suits, the organizations can be sued (like any organization) but the waivers and the assumptions made by the drivers and passengers mean that the conduct has to be pretty bad to get anywhere with it.

Yes I am a lawyer.