BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-09-2012, 06:23 PM   #67
Mookster
Captain
Mookster's Avatar
184
Rep
692
Posts

Drives: 2019 ZR1 & 2020 Supra GR LE
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ed-test-review
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2012, 08:27 PM   #68
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
The M3 has a better chassis and it does not have a solid rear axle.
Agreed. In fact, overall the M3 beats up the Boss in my opinion. The M3 is clearly a better overall car, and clearly better on the street.

Not so much on track, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Track cars do not have solid rear axles...
Uh, you mean cars designed to compete on road courses, right? If so (and I assume so), I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Take a look at Ford's standings in the Grand Am series or watch a race. The solid rear axle is limiting it's capabilities. Even the Camaros are beating out the Ford's.
We're talking stock, smog legal street cars here, right? Race cars are something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
I'd rather make an M3 a track car than a Mustang.
Not me. You can go faster on way fewer dollars in the Mustang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Solid rear axle is for drag racing only. Only an insane person would argue in favor of a solid axle.
I don't know anybody who's advocating for a solid axle on a road course. "Insane", though? You might want to get a grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Ford is currently in 4th in GS and 5th is ST. BMW is 2 and 1.
Perhaps you have me confused with someone who actually gives a damn about how race cars are doing. We're talking stock Boss 302 vs stock M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
As for my personal track experience? I have yet to be passed by a Boss.
You want anecdotal? My son and a couple of newly-found track buddies who run stock Boss 302s down in Texas never bother talking about M3s. They just drive around them while winning and losing with Porsches.

However, your anecdote and mine are worth precisely nothing. Check fastestlaps.com, type in M3 vs Boss 302, and see how these cars compete on various tracks.

In my opinion, the M3 is the way better car, but the facts say the Boss is quicker on drag strip and road course. Not by a lot, though - which speaks volumes about how great an overall compromise the bimmer is, again in my opinion.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2012, 10:31 PM   #69
jtvr4
Private
United_States
3
Rep
69
Posts

Drives: 2008 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Agreed. In fact, overall the M3 beats up the Boss in my opinion. The M3 is clearly a better overall car, and clearly better on the street.

Not so much on track, though.


http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b..._302_2013.html

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b..._boss_302.html

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...ss_302_ls.html
[/I]







Uh, you mean cars designed to compete on road courses, right? If so (and I assume so), I agree.



We're talking stock, smog legal street cars here, right? Race cars are something else.

Not by alot in GS and ST. If you were into racing you'd know that.

http://www.capaldiracing.com/motorsport/continental/continental.html




Not me. You can go faster on way fewer dollars in the Mustang.


Started in an SN95 when I was a teenager. Beating my lap times in a fairly stock E46 M3 is pretty depressing. I had over 10k into that car, counting the 6k I paid for it.




I don't know anybody who's advocating for a solid axle on a road course. "Insane", though? You might want to get a grip.

I said anyone who would argue otherwise is insane. Are you insane? As for grip my I have lot's of that with my IRS. I also have good tires, so you don't need to worry about that.



Perhaps you have me confused with someone who actually gives a damn about how race cars are doing. We're talking stock Boss 302 vs stock M3.

Yes we established you don't know anything about racing. Otherwise you'd know that GS is damn near showroom racing. It's a proving ground for factory cars and the solid rear axle is why the M3 and Camaro beat it.


You want anecdotal? My son and a couple of newly-found track buddies who run stock Boss 302s down in Texas never bother talking about M3s. They just drive around them while winning and losing with Porsches.

Cool story. Tell him to get an M3 and stop fighting the laws of physics.

However, your anecdote and mine are worth precisely nothing. Check fastestlaps.com, type in M3 vs Boss 302, and see how these cars compete on various tracks.

I did see above.


In my opinion, the M3 is the way better car, but the facts say the Boss is quicker on drag strip and road course. Not by a lot, though - which speaks volumes about how great an overall compromise the bimmer is, again in my opinion.

Show me a back to back comparison. Same driver, same day. This thread has one such and the M3 won.

Bruce


In blue.

Last edited by jtvr4; 09-09-2012 at 10:53 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-09-2012, 11:28 PM   #70
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
In blue.
Obviously can't quote you because of your weird posting style (this time), but listen, just stop being slippery, go back to fastest laps, put in M3 vs Boss 302 and get back the five track times listed, will you?
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 02:34 AM   #71
jtvr4
Private
United_States
3
Rep
69
Posts

Drives: 2008 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Obviously can't quote you because of your weird posting style (this time), but listen, just stop being slippery, go back to fastest laps, put in M3 vs Boss 302 and get back the five track times listed, will you?


Sorry I'm on a laptop and felt like being lazy. I did the fastest laps comparo but the lap times are to few on the Boss to make any type of educated guess. Which is why I posted three different links. Did you see the scores?

If you can find me back to back lap times, I'd read it. The only one I can find have been posted and the Boss lost.

Different days with different drivers mean nothing to me or anyone who is into lap times, but whatever floats your boat. In the end the Boss has a solid rear axle. I will say Ford has done as good as they could with it, but they can only do so much.

Rumor has it the next gen will be IRS. Maybe than they can compete. As for now? No, the chassis is to far limited and it clearly shows otherwise it's standings would be different and certain drivers wouldn't be bitching.

On a side note, I get to drive a Boss non LS next month at Hallett and I'm 99% it's better than the SN95.
__________________
2008 M3 Sedan - SOLD
1993 3000GT VR4 - AEM EMS 506awhp 511awtq
C5 Z06- T1 Setup
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 12:06 PM   #72
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Sorry I'm on a laptop and felt like being lazy. I did the fastest laps comparo but the lap times are to few on the Boss to make any type of educated guess...
Let me get this straight: You see where the Boss is quicker on five tracks, and claim it's meaningless. You don't even think there's a hint of a shadow of a clue there that the Boss might be the quicker car?

The Car & Driver times are also meaningless?

How about Motor Trend?

For whatever reason (I assume traction loss from a bumpy venue), the Boss 302 got its ass solidly kicked by the three German cars in that EVO test, but if you think the other seven times are without meaning, then we're simply done here.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #73
Brosef
Brigadier General
Brosef's Avatar
United_States
872
Rep
3,446
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (4)

I'm with Bruce on this one.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 06:29 PM   #74
jtvr4
Private
United_States
3
Rep
69
Posts

Drives: 2008 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Kansas City

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Let me get this straight: You see where the Boss is quicker on five tracks, and claim it's meaningless. You don't even think there's a hint of a shadow of a clue there that the Boss might be the quicker car?

The Car & Driver times are also meaningless?

How about Motor Trend?

For whatever reason (I assume traction loss from a bumpy venue), the Boss 302 got its ass solidly kicked by the three German cars in that EVO test, but if you think the other seven times are without meaning, then we're simply done here.


I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks.



Also my points are going over your head but im not shocked. We were done the moment you said you said you know nothing about racing. If the Boss was a better car it wouldn't be getting it's butt kicked in GS as those cars use the same equipment. The solid rear axle limits the capabilities of the car. Yes the M3 chassis is better for racing. End of story.

Non back to back lap times are pretty pointless but I can tell the only racing you do is magazine times. Different days, different drivers and different track conditions are going to yield different results.

Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (post 06/2008) M3 Base 1:26.20 Boss 1:29.00 Those times mean nothing but I can too play your stupid game. After looking at Bedford I'm not shocked the Boss had a hard time for reasons I doubt you'll understand but I'm sure your racing google skills will figure it out.
__________________
2008 M3 Sedan - SOLD
1993 3000GT VR4 - AEM EMS 506awhp 511awtq
C5 Z06- T1 Setup

Last edited by jtvr4; 09-10-2012 at 07:10 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 08:34 PM   #75
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks.



Also my points are going over your head but im not shocked. We were done the moment you said you said you know nothing about racing. If the Boss was a better car it wouldn't be getting it's butt kicked in GS as those cars use the same equipment. The solid rear axle limits the capabilities of the car. Yes the M3 chassis is better for racing. End of story.

Non back to back lap times are pretty pointless but I can tell the only racing you do is magazine times. Different days, different drivers and different track conditions are going to yield different results.

Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (post 06/2008) M3 Base 1:26.20 Boss 1:29.00 Those times mean nothing but I can too play your stupid game. After looking at Bedford I'm not shocked the Boss had a hard time for reasons I doubt you'll understand but I'm sure your racing google skills will figure it out.
Serious question. Do you race? I admit I never have.

And I'll bite. Why did the Boss have a hard time at Bedford.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 09-10-2012 at 08:47 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2012, 08:53 PM   #76
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks...
...and here are the times from fastestlaps that you "forgot" to point out.

Lap Times (5)

Track M3 Mustang Boss 302 LS
Hockenheim Short 1:14.00 1:13.20
Laguna Seca 1:42.96 1:39.50
Virginia International Raceway 3:05.40 3:02.80
Willow Springs - Streets of Willow 1:27.67 1:26.10
Sachsenring 1:40.67 1:39.85
Appreciate 0
      09-19-2012, 08:41 PM   #77
Beemw335
Colonel
62
Rep
2,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: My car is my home

iTrader: (2)

Most bmw owners think they drive the best cars on planet earth. Not many bmw owners are able to admit when a car is better than theirs, its pretty sad lol.
My family owns and has owned many bmws(much more than most people on here) and I can say the boss 302 is better than the m3 from a performance standpoint, luxury wise the m3 wins.
But were talking about performance here, and the boss comes out on top in this category.
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 07:58 AM   #78
IMG
IMG's Avatar
United_States
1119
Rep
7,690
Posts

Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Location

iTrader: (6)

Its a nice car and performs and responds very well to mods but the interiors not all that. M3 all day !
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 11:08 AM   #79
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Its a nice car and performs and responds very well to mods but the interiors not all that. M3 all day !
To repeat myself, these cars are simply not competitors. The only reason the issue comes up is because Ford stated their performance goal was to beat the M3 around Laguna Seca, which of course they had already done, or they wouldn't have made the statement.

This is exactly like Nissan stating their performance goal for the GT-R was to beat the then current Porsche Turbo around the 'Ring. Job done before they mentioned that, of course.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 03:33 PM   #80
IMG
IMG's Avatar
United_States
1119
Rep
7,690
Posts

Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Location

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
To repeat myself, these cars are simply not competitors. The only reason the issue comes up is because Ford stated their performance goal was to beat the M3 around Laguna Seca, which of course they had already done, or they wouldn't have made the statement.

This is exactly like Nissan stating their performance goal for the GT-R was to beat the then current Porsche Turbo around the 'Ring. Job done before they mentioned that, of course.

Bruce
Hey Bruce, I was just saying my experience with Ford. Didnt sound like i was advising
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 04:05 PM   #81
klammer
Brigadier General
97
Rep
3,246
Posts

Drives: 11 spc gry m3 e90, 19 X5
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: chicago

iTrader: (0)

I will say this, have seen 3 BOSS' wreck this track season and not a single M3 (which is a bit misleading cause I'm usually the 1 M3) not sure what, if anything that means, but still waiting for a "wow that guys fast" quote coming from that or any car outside the usual (GT-R, Viper, Vette, GT3) Was just watching "gone in 60 seconds" and realize just about every car on there was slower than either of the cars we're talking about, so let's get over it and go for a drive
__________________
mods: track ready stuff
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 04:41 PM   #82
CSanto
Brigadier General
634
Rep
3,039
Posts

Drives: 2015 BSM/SO M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York

iTrader: (3)

^ You're probably one of my favorite bimmerpost members. Just straight STFU and enjoy your great car. I like it haha.
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 05:07 PM   #83
bigjae1976
Major General
bigjae1976's Avatar
1566
Rep
8,074
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.25]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
I think Ford made a pretty good car and I'd consider buying this generation Mustang. But I'm just tired of American companies claiming they made a BMW beater. For that reason, they'll always be behind the power curve.

Don't ever think american cars are that much cheaper to maintain than German cars. You'll find parts prices are not that much cheaper for american cars. The biggest difference is likely the dealership labor rates.

I've seen a couple of Boss 302s with the Laguna Seca package at the track. Two with blown engines. Not sure if it was a one time issue or systemic issue but I have NEVER seen an M3 at the track with a blown engine. With that said, who gives a shit about ego massaging Nurburgring or Laguna Seca lap times. Its all about the drive.
__________________
2018 F30 320iX Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 Imola Red
2000 E36/7 Z3 Steel Blue
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2012, 05:28 PM   #84
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
United_States
338
Rep
1,805
Posts

Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

iTrader: (1)

Ive owned both, both AMAZING cars. The BOSS feels german on the track, if you couldnt see the interior you couldnt tell. Boss 45k, M3 70k. If you want a nice interior dont buy the Boss, cause that not what you are paying for, but you get amazing performance for the money! its all plastics inside but it has great seats, an awesome engine that sounds glorious, a great tranny and handles beautifully!

on a side note why do some of you spend so much time arguing such insignificant things, who care. ENJOY YOUR CARS! and be happy that you can afford these cars wether it be a BOSS or an M3.
__________________
17' M2 DCT - KW CS - Re71r - Carbotech
BW C13 - 1:57:2
ACS - 1:49:6
WSIR - 1:30:6
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2012, 09:08 AM   #85
stevehifi
Captain
526
Rep
855
Posts

Drives: 17 F80 M3 ZCP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Irvine,CA

iTrader: (5)

Drove one the other day. What a POS.
The engine is the only strength of the car, everything else is junk ( chassis, interior, brakes, tranny).
I can't believe they are asking $45k for this car.
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2012, 12:00 PM   #86
Port Canaveral M3 driver
Enlisted Member
Port Canaveral M3 driver's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
41
Posts

Drives: 13 E92 M3 & 05 BMW R1200GS
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Trade your M3 for a newer M3 with warranty and ask the wife & kids if they would like to go live with their relatives?
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2012, 09:43 PM   #87
krnnerdboy
Colonel
krnnerdboy's Avatar
United_States
190
Rep
2,431
Posts

Drives: v10 m6
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: so cal

iTrader: (10)

Boss parts are cheaper, and I have yet to see a boss motor blow on the forums? You can order a boss crate motor from the dealer for 10k and receive a significant amount back with core exchange for that price you can goto the dealer and get your m3's throttle actuators fixed Did I mention the stock block/internals are capable of holding 1k whp with just a blower? And those aren't just dyno queens. To be honest, the perfect m3 would come with a boss 302 motor. Oh yeah the stock valve train is rated for 9k rpm redline and its the exact motor used in the grand am series cars. All BMW can say is there motors are derived from racing, and the boss has an actual race car motor

I'm all for the m3 but I hate the misinformation.
__________________

F80 m3, 997 gt3, 14 ram ctd, f15 x5, drz400sm

Gone:z4m, boss 302, c6 z06, m6,z3m
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2012, 09:55 PM   #88
swanson
Convicted Felon
swanson's Avatar
733
Rep
2,180
Posts

Drives: chariot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krnnerdboy View Post
Boss parts are cheaper, and I have yet to see a boss motor blow on the forums? You can order a boss crate motor from the dealer for 10k and receive a significant amount back with core exchange for that price you can goto the dealer and get your m3's throttle actuators fixed Did I mention the stock block/internals are capable of holding 1k whp with just a blower? And those aren't just dyno queens. To be honest, the perfect m3 would come with a boss 302 motor. Oh yeah the stock valve train is rated for 9k rpm redline and its the exact motor used in the grand am series cars. All BMW can say is there motors are derived from racing, and the boss has an actual race car motor

I'm all for the m3 but I hate the misinformation.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:01 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST