My take: 2012 BMW M3 Coupe(ZCP,DCT) vs 2012 C63 AMG Coupe(P31,LSD)

[klammer]

Make that the E63 not the C

[DiscoZ]

Saying the E92 will follow the E46 is a bit of a fallacy. The E92 is the last NA M ever made (i.e. one that follows M's philosophy for the last gazillion years) and it was a vast improvement over the E46. The E46 (especially in Europe) was not really much of an improvement over the E36, both from a power and a chassis perspective.

That being said, the torque in the C63 is very nice... too bad it looks just like a regular C class coupe and cannot turn very well given it's 4,000lb weight. I love the C63's motor, however, while it handles a bit better than prior AMGs, it is still a car wrapped around a motor. The balance is not there between the chassis, gearing, motor, torque, HP, etc. I personally think the E92 M3 has the right amount of torque (even before the pipes and tuning) for the track - and yes, I do track it regularly.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

That being said, the torque in the C63 is very nice... too bad it looks just like a regular C class coupe and cannot turn very well given it's 4,000lb weight. I love the C63's motor, however, while it handles a bit better than prior AMGs, it is still a car wrapped around a motor.

Bolded statement is incorrect and hugely overstated but I'm glad your extensive experience in the 2012 C63 (because I'm sure your comments are not based solely on BMW marketing hype) provides this insight. The 2012 C63 is very close in handling to the M3 whether people want to believe it or not (I know we don't want to believe this because then what edge does the M3 have if the gap is narrower in this area now?). On the street any difference is irrelevant, on the track the M3 is a little easier to manage and has a slight edge. The M3 is still the better handling car but let's not exaggerate the difference to try to maintain a now incorrect stereotype.

[soberin]

Originally Posted by gthal

Bolded statement is incorrect and hugely overstated but I'm glad your extensive experience in the 2012 C63 (because I'm sure your comments are not based solely on BMW marketing hype) provides this insight. The 2012 C63 is very close in handling to the M3 whether people want to believe it or not (I know we don't want to believe this because then what edge does the M3 have if the gap is narrower in this area now?). On the street any difference is irrelevant, on the track the M3 is a little easier to manage and has a slight edge. The M3 is still the better handling car but let's not exaggerate the difference to try to maintain a now incorrect stereotype.

Nope. I've driven every version of the C63. Like the guy said in the superhero movie--I forget which one---"With great power you must have great steering feedback and feel." It ain't there in the C63, as much as you may wish it so.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by soberin

Nope. I've driven every version of the C63. Like the guy said in the superhero movie--I forget which one---"With great power you must have great steering feedback and feel." It ain't there in the C63, as much as you may wish it so.

Saying the C63 doesn't have good steering feel is one thing (and that's your right to think so) but the way you used "Nope" suggests you don't think my post that the C63 is close to the M3 in handling is wrong and that, IMO, just simply sounds like a case of being a fanboy. M3 > C63 in handling yes... but it's close.

Anyway... silly argument at this point as the M3 is the better handling car and no one needs to be convinced otherwise.


P.S. When someone says they have driven every version of the car, I take that with a grain of salt. Lots of claims on the internet to win arguments. Not saying you haven't driven each version... just saying a grain of salt is often warranted

[Nine]

Originally Posted by gthal

Anyway, saying the C63 doesn't have good steering feel is one thing (and that's your right to think so) but the way you used "Nope" suggests you don't think my post that the C63 is close to the M3 in handling is wrong and that, IMO, just simply sounds like a case of being a fanboy. M3 > C63 in handling yes... but it's close.

Anyway... silly argument at this point as the M3 is the better handling car and no one needs to be convinced otherwise.

P.S. When someone says they have driven every version of the car, I take that with a grain of salt. Lots of claims on the internet to win arguments. Not saying you haven't driven each version... just saying a grain of salt is often warranted

I think you should let it go, everyone has their own experiences, own opinions. You are not going to convince everyone of your opinion every time, two guys can take the same car around the track on the same day and come away with two different opinions.

You can't just argue your point is right because you were at the track...

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Nine

I think you should let it go, everyone has their own experiences, own opinions. You are not going to convince everyone of your opinion every time, two guys can take the same car around the track on the same day and come away with two different opinions.

You can't just argue your point is right because you were at the track...

Absolutely. When did I say otherwise? But, while saying the C63 can't handle is an opinion, it is a little far fetched and exaggerated. Show me an unbiased "opinion" where a magazine, review or otherwise says the C63 is not a capable car from a handling perspective. That isn't me trying to win an argument or convince others it is simply setting the record straight and taking out exaggeration and bias. Saying the M3 is better handling, preferred in feel, better balanced or whatever is an opinion and also one I happen to share, for the record.

But, you're right. Others can argue their opinions and try to be convincing but I will stop doing the same thing .

[Nautik]

Just saw an all black c63 AMG coupe in the parking lot. Looks AWESOME!!!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Nautik

Just saw an all black c63 AMG coupe in the parking lot. Looks AWESOME!!!

Listen... stop trying to convince everyone the C63 is not crap

In all seriousness, I like how the C63 coupe looks too but I still like a well done M3 better. I saw my M3 at the dealer today (they haven't sold it yet) and it also looked amazing!! Made me a little nostalgic... it is a great car.

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by gthal

Listen... stop trying to convince everyone the C63 is not crap

In all seriousness, I like how the C63 coupe looks too but I still like a well done M3 better. I saw my M3 at the dealer today (they haven't sold it yet) and it also looked amazing!! Made me a little nostalgic... it is a great car.

I knew that was yours. I saw it on Friday, such a nice car!

[MMMorish]

The M3 vs C63 argument will never end. No matter what improvements are made to their successor models, each camp of "fanboyz" will always pull for their own team.

I for one agree with anyone that says the new C63 coupe is stunning both inside and out and with the right option packages, I'd be in one in a heartbeat.

Congrats on your new car, gthal. Post some pics.

[gblansten]

Best plan is to have had one of each.

[DiscoZ]

Originally Posted by gthal

Bolded statement is incorrect and hugely overstated but I'm glad your extensive experience in the 2012 C63 (because I'm sure your comments are not based solely on BMW marketing hype) provides this insight. The 2012 C63 is very close in handling to the M3 whether people want to believe it or not (I know we don't want to believe this because then what edge does the M3 have if the gap is narrower in this area now?). On the street any difference is irrelevant, on the track the M3 is a little easier to manage and has a slight edge. The M3 is still the better handling car but let's not exaggerate the difference to try to maintain a now incorrect stereotype.

Actually, I've driven it 3-4x and still don't think it turns as well as a M3... and I just bought a C63 AMG P31 (or whatever it's called in Canada). Just like yours actually, black on red.

I also know the C63 AMG P31 is faster than the E9x M3 on the almighty Nordschleife.

However - I think the C63 is a more fun car to drive everyday and I am sure I'll be just as fast at the track since I am no Michael Schumacher and not good enough to extract that last 5% of performance out of a car. C63 does need new rear rubber though.

[HotIce]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

Actually, I've driven it 3-4x and still don't think it turns as well as a M3... and I just bought a C63 AMG P31 (or whatever it's called in Canada). Just like yours actually, black on red.

I also know the C63 AMG P31 is faster than the E9x M3 on the almighty Nordschleife.

However - I think the C63 is a more fun car to drive everyday and I am sure I'll be just as fast at the track since I am no Michael Schumacher and not good enough to extract that last 5% of performance out of a car. C63 does need new rear rubber though.

The C63 doesn't turn in as well as the M3, but it's damn close. From my experience, the C63 Coupe is more eager to turn in then the M3 is. The M3 is better balanced, but I personally think MB has come a very long way with the introduction of the C63 Coupe. I expect the next generation to be even closer to the next gen M3 in terms of overall performance.

[DiscoZ]

Yup... damn close. I just bought one with the AMG Performance Package. Replacing rear rubber over the weekend hopefully; needs it, loses traction too easily.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

That being said, the torque in the C63 is very nice... too bad it looks just like a regular C class coupe and cannot turn very well given it's 4,000lb weight. I love the C63's motor, however, while it handles a bit better than prior AMGs, it is still a car wrapped around a motor. The balance is not there between the chassis, gearing, motor, torque, HP, etc. I personally think the E92 M3 has the right amount of torque (even before the pipes and tuning) for the track - and yes, I do track it regularly.

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

Yup... damn close. I just bought one with the AMG Performance Package. Replacing rear rubber over the weekend hopefully; needs it, loses traction too easily.

So a while ago you said it couldn't turn well and now it is "damn close" to the M3. So either the M3 can't handle well either or the C63 got better magically

Is this change in heart because you bought one (even though it is heavy, unbalanced and looks like a regular C class ) or because your first post was before you had experience with the car? My guess is your first post was BEFORE you drove a C63 to any large extent... then you drove one and it changed your opinion and you ended up buying it. In any event, I'm only messing around with you ... congrats on the car... it is fun for sure.

P.S. I also replaced the tires with wider Michelin PSS and the difference is notable and it improves the car in all respects.

[DiscoZ]

Originally Posted by gthal

So a while ago you said it couldn't turn well and now it is "damn close" to the M3. So either the M3 can't handle well either or the C63 got better magically

Is this change in heart because you bought one (even though it is heavy, unbalanced and looks like a regular C class ) or because your first post was before you had experience with the car? My guess is your first post was BEFORE you drove a C63 to any large extent... then you drove one and it changed your opinion and you ended up buying it. In any event, I'm only messing around with you ... congrats on the car... it is fun for sure.

P.S. I also replaced the tires with wider Michelin PSS and the difference is notable and it improves the car in all respects.

LOL. You are "damn close" - I concede that I mostly was trying to convince myself I didn't want it. I did drive it before that post, albeit on a friend's test drive and it was a quick switch. HOWEVER, I drove the non-P31 sedan in 2010 and 2011 and did not like at all. It shifted all wrong, did not turn well and seemed like a car around a motor - a very glorious motor at that.

When they facelifted it, revised the suspension & tranny, changed the interior - I had to try for myself, but never got around to it... mostly I was worried I would like it and have to explain another car change to the wife. My buddy did not buy it, but it kept nagging and I drove it again after. This time I had 45 mins to it with myself on a nice 16 degree March day. I loved it. It filled all the gaps my M3 had.

While a totally different car, its raucous nature kinda reminds me of my old Z4M. Both were raw, although very different animals.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

LOL. You are "damn close" - I concede that I mostly was trying to convince myself I didn't want it. I did drive it before that post, albeit on a friend's test drive and it was a quick switch. HOWEVER, I drove the non-P31 sedan in 2010 and 2011 and did not like at all. It shifted all wrong, did not turn well and seemed like a car around a motor - a very glorious motor at that.

When they facelifted it, revised the suspension & tranny, changed the interior - I had to try for myself, but never got around to it... mostly I was worried I would like it and have to explain another car change to the wife. My buddy did not buy it, but it kept nagging and I drove it again after. This time I had 45 mins to it with myself on a nice 16 degree March day. I loved it. It filled all the gaps my M3 had.

While a totally different car, its raucous nature kinda reminds me of my old Z4M. Both were raw, although very different animals.