More rod bearings

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

You and hundreds of other S65 owners who feel the same way. You feel that bmw is responsible and should replace our engines free of charge... news flash.... it isn't going to happen.

They've had rod bearing issues since the early S54's and they didn't do anything then. Then the s85, same story. Now the S65. They won't do anything, and complaining on a forum isn't going to magically sway their position either.

To them, they don't see an issue.

Just pay up the money like the rest of us or get rid of the car.

I did an oil change today on a local used car dealers latest purchase for resale. A ESS 550 equiped e92. Upon pulling the filter it was full of copper colored shavings, oil had suspended copper shavings as well. Guess what.... it's going back to auction lol.

You don?t think the thought of just throwing rod bearings in it regardless of what journals looked like and trading it in crossed my mind? You misread me.

[pbonsalb]

There is no issue for the majority of owners so far. Buyer beware. If enough eventually fail, BMW may regret it's decision to pretend there is no issue.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There is no issue for the majority of owners so far. Buyer beware. If enough eventually fail, BMW may regret it's decision to pretend there is no issue.

I like the idea of playing m3 hot potato and seeing how many people can be turned off to the brand by a single bad car. BMW can reap what it sows.

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

They've had rod bearing issues since the early S54's and they didn't do anything then. Then the s85, same story. Now the S65. They won't do anything, and complaining on a forum isn't going to magically sway their position either.

Early S54 bearing manufacturing issues and the S85/S65 bearing clearance issues are two completely different things.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by Duk996

You don?t think the thought of just throwing rod bearings in it regardless of what journals looked like and trading it in crossed my mind? You misread me.

Any professional, reputable shop/dealer wouldn't do that anyway. I just had this issue last week with an E60 M5. Journals were scored and cylinder 1 connecting rod was stretched so far that the bearings didn't even fit them anymore. I showed the owner the problems, told him I wouldn't do a bearing job and waste his money. He agreed, I put the car back together and now it's in storage while he saves the money for a rebuilt S85.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

Any professional, reputable shop/dealer wouldn't do that anyway. I just had this issue last week with an E60 M5. Journals were scored and cylinder 1 connecting rod was stretched so far that the bearings didn't even fit them anymore. I showed the owner the problems, told him I wouldn't do a bearing job and waste his money. He agreed, I put the car back together and now it's in storage while he saves the money for a rebuilt S85.

Any professional/reputable manufacturer wouldn?t allow such a problem to manifest either. We see how that?s working out.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Any professional/reputable manufacturer wouldn?t allow such a problem to manifest either. We see how that?s working out.

That is just false. Every high performance car manufacturer has issues with it's most high strung engines. Our little bearing issue is nothing compared to Porsche's engine failures with the 4.0 RS's.


If you're not happy, sell the car and walk away from the brand. There are lots of great cars out there to choose from.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Early S54 bearing manufacturing issues and the S85/S65 bearing clearance issues are two completely different things.

Really, I didn't know rod bearing failures in engines could be different... The cause, maybe but not the failure.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

That is just false. Every high performance car manufacturer has issues with it's most high strung engines. Our little bearing issue is nothing compared to Porsche's engine failures with the 4.0 RS's.


If you're not happy, sell the car and walk away from the brand. There are lots of great cars out there to choose from.

Done

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Done

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by zerohedge

Did they describe how the metal shavings looked? During my last oil change @ 85k, I found some tiny metallic flakes <.5mm trapped in my oil filter and a few ~1mm sized flakes in the oil.

Waiting to hear back from my oil analysis. Curious to know what you're planning to do to monitor this.

They were metallic. Mine were not copper flakes luckily. I’ll be doing short intervals at 1k miles for oil changes until I’m sure everything is normal with oil analysis while visually inspecting as well. If it gets worse, swap out the bearings. Keep me posted with your oil analysis

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

Really, I didn't know rod bearing failures in engines could be different... The cause, maybe but not the failure.

Let's not be disingenuous. Your point was that BMW can't seem to get it right with rod bearings and doesn't care, and you said that they didn't do anything for the S54 failures. My point is the brief issue with S54 bearings had nothing to do with BMW's bearing design. It was a problem with their supplier, which makes your assertion that the BMW spec is an issue spanning at least two generations false. In addition, BMW issued a recall for the affected S54's and gave extended warranties to a range of cars, so they did in fact do something for the S54. Finally, the last several years of S54 production have perfectly acceptable bearings, which is verification that BMW's design was never the problem.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Let's not be disingenuous. Your point was that BMW can't seem to get it right with rod bearings and doesn't care, and you said that they didn't do anything for the S54 failures. My point is the brief issue with S54 bearings had nothing to do with BMW's bearing design. It was a problem with their supplier, which makes your assertion that the BMW spec is an issue spanning at least two generations false. In addition, BMW issued a recall for the affected S54's and gave extended warranties to a range of cars, so they did in fact do something for the S54. Finally, the last several years of S54 production have perfectly acceptable bearings, which is verification that BMW's design was never the problem.

Don?t even get me going on his assertion that all high performance cars have to come with some sort of technical compromise....bearings shouldn?t even be a variable in the design, at this point in engineering and manufacturing you just assess the requirements and find the appropriate bearing.

I would have cut bmw some slack if they pushed the envelope with variable intake runner length or something and F?ed up. But F?ing up bearings is just embarrassing.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Don?t even get me going on his assertion that all high performance cars have to come with some sort of technical compromise....bearings shouldn?t even be a variable in the design, at this point in engineering and manufacturing you just assess the requirements and find the appropriate bearing.

I would have cut bmw some slack if they pushed the envelope with variable intake runner length or something and F?ed up. But F?ing up bearings is just embarrassing.

Complaining about it on a forum isn't going to stop the wear nor save the S65 from it's seemingly innevitable doom. Considering the total number of failures are a fraction of total produced, it's unfair to call this an epidemic of sorts. Forums provide a biased view of the issue because only those affected with complete failure and or those who preventatively replace the bearings report their findings here.

My M3 has been the most reliable car I've ever owned. It's the only car to never leave me stranded. This includes my two previous BMW's, my 13' 128i and my 12' 135i. Both of those cars had multiple issues over my ownership experience.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There is no issue for the majority of owners so far. Buyer beware. If enough eventually fail, BMW may regret it's decision to pretend there is no issue.

Maybe we need another S65 lawsuit thread ?

I saw already 3 lawsuit threads in the last 2 years on BP , actually it's a big joke !

But hey I agree . Nothing is wrong with the S65 ....

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Let's not be disingenuous. Your point was that BMW can't seem to get it right with rod bearings and doesn't care, and you said that they didn't do anything for the S54 failures. My point is the brief issue with S54 bearings had nothing to do with BMW's bearing design. It was a problem with their supplier, which makes your assertion that the BMW spec is an issue spanning at least two generations false. In addition, BMW issued a recall for the affected S54's and gave extended warranties to a range of cars, so they did in fact do something for the S54. Finally, the last several years of S54 production have perfectly acceptable bearings, which is verification that BMW's design was never the problem.

To your point, BMW addressed the early failures in the S65 in 2011 by changing the bearing material used, and simply failed to fix the problem. They just made it harder to detect the failures and in the event a bearing actually failed, crank damage was almost inevitable. It was their assumption that tri-metal bearings couldn't handle the forces exerted and a harder bearing material would slow wear. Which as we all know here, was simply false.

Like it or not, every manufacturer with "race" oriented engine designs have accelerated wear. Take a gander in the Porsche forums and talk to any gt3 rs4.0 owner and they will quickly tell you how paranoid they are to go to redline. (I've personally seen 5 engine failures at track days).

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

To your point, BMW addressed the early failures in the S65 in 2011 by changing the bearing material used, and simply failed to fix the problem. They just made it harder to detect the failures and in the event a bearing actually failed, crank damage was almost inevitable. It was their assumption that tri-metal bearings couldn't handle the forces exerted and a harder bearing material would slow wear. Which as we all know here, was simply false.

Like it or not, every manufacturer with "race" oriented engine designs have accelerated wear. Take a gander in the Porsche forums and talk to any gt3 rs4.0 owner and they will quickly tell you how paranoid they are to go to redline. (I've personally seen 5 engine failures at track days).

But not with the Honda Type-R engines .

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

But not with the Honda Type-R engines .

maybe so. dont know enough about them to have an opinion.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

To your point, BMW addressed the early failures in the S65 in 2011 by changing the bearing material used, and simply failed to fix the problem. They just made it harder to detect the failures and in the event a bearing actually failed, crank damage was almost inevitable. It was their assumption that tri-metal bearings couldn't handle the forces exerted and a harder bearing material would slow wear. Which as we all know here, was simply false.

Like it or not, every manufacturer with "race" oriented engine designs have accelerated wear. Take a gander in the Porsche forums and talk to any gt3 rs4.0 owner and they will quickly tell you how paranoid they are to go to redline. (I've personally seen 5 engine failures at track days).

Yeah, when I signed up for ?accelerated? I didn?t have wear in mind...I have a graduate degree in mechanical engineering and they never taught us about any wear to performance ratio...regardless of how you justify this being all well and good below is a pic of the filter. Every pleat is a copper miner?s wet dream.

I strained the out coming oil for good measure, only found a chip or 2. I?ll be tearing into it over the next few day and show the carnage as it comes to me.

[Solo_M_Tech]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Yeah, when I signed up for ?accelerated? I didn?t have wear in mind...I have a graduate degree in mechanical engineering and they never taught us about any wear to performance ratio...regardless of how you justify this being all well and good below is a pic of the filter. Every pleat is a copper miner?s wet dream.

I strained the out coming oil for good measure, only found a chip or 2. I?ll be tearing into it over the next few day and show the carnage as it comes to me.

Im not justifying anything, only citing facts and personal observations. Im not telling you your individual situation is normal, it isn't. The point is simple. We have an engine that eats rod bearings ( not a 100% failure rate). If you want to extend it's life, replace them with better bearings and bolts and move on. If not, sell and move on. As I mentioned before, there are alot of great performance cars out there in the same price range.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by ham_sammich

To your point, BMW addressed the early failures in the S65 in 2011 by changing the bearing material used, and simply failed to fix the problem. They just made it harder to detect the failures and in the event a bearing actually failed, crank damage was almost inevitable. It was their assumption that tri-metal bearings couldn't handle the forces exerted and a harder bearing material would slow wear. Which as we all know here, was simply false...

The change was actually addressing the EU mandate prohibiting the use of lead in automotive bearings.

[simple2010]

Sometimes I wish I never visited any automotive forum. When I first got my e39 M5, bearing discussion was nearly always on the first page. Considering I had bought it with ~90k miles, I assumed it would be any day. I then put 50k more miles on it and it never blew up. So, in my own experience with the S62, I had a 0% failure rate up to 140k miles. This isn't a crazy occurrence since the vast majority don't have an issue.

When I jumped ship to e9x M3, I found it comical that the discussion is still about bearings. I suspect if we had the real numbers, it would be hard to seriously consider it a problem. What is your personal cut off? Say, in 100k miles of spirited/mixed driving is 1% an acceptable rate of failure? What do you think the failure rate really is? Even if it was 2%, if you were glass half full, that's a 98% chance you aren't going to have a problem.

What makes rod bearing failure scary is the cost if it does happen. $8k on the very low end to inherit some other ticking timebomb. As a percentage of value of the car, that's quite a gamble. The upside of ownership must be higher than living with those odds. Otherwise, spend $2,500 and get a little peace of mind. Since purchase, I'm sure a lot of you have dumped that into it unnecessarily already.

For now, for me, at 58k miles on a 2011 and no good way to gauge if it's "coming," I have to decide if the $2,500 lets me sleep better. If I never went to a BMW forum, I'd sleep like a baby.

For those with failures, that sucks and I feel for you, for the silent majority, I hope I can remain in your camp.