Battle of the Supercars: M3 vs IS-F

[graider]

hehe, I just watched this LFA review, love the way this guy does review in general.

[330CIZHP]

I don't know if it was the M-DCT or if there are some difference with the ZCP (better tires?), but the M3 was pulling away with relative ease.

Originally Posted by DDS335i

You would think that he would test the M3 out before he drove it. I mean showing him reading the manual on how to use launch control. I was amazed in the straight line test - ISF got the jump and the M3 still beat it!

[jaeS4]

I think the big difference is in the transmission. No way can a automatic beat a DCT which is even better and quicker than a regular MT. Although Tanner was quicker on the first test and pulled quite a big distance from 0-100, but that's also because Tracy didn't know how to launch the M3 yet. BTW, it looked like the M3 had the competition package.

[orientblue3]

Speaking of LFA's. Saw a yellow one running around Dallas yesterday. May be the only yellow one out?

[caymandiver75]

So after more thought and having watched this episode twice more I have come to the following conclusion. I do believe Paul Tracy was giving
it 100% with his comments and the way he was pushing the car as opposed to Tanner who appeared to just be giving it 95% with his lackluster comments and the way he was not pushing the car in manual mode as it should have been.

0-100-0
-Being that the M3 DCT has launch control and is lighter I would give this event win to the M3.

60-100
- Because of the gearing the IS-F is not in a good position with this kind of roll on race. The M3 at 60mph is in it's sweet spot in the top end of second gear. The IS-F on the otherhand at 60mph is almost at it's rev limiter in second gear so would most likely have to run from 3rd gear. Win as expected in this situation goes to the M3.

1/2 Mile Sprint
- It's apparent the IS-F was not being pushed 100% or more here. At the start of this event, the camera is in the IS-F and you can see the car shifting automatically and NOT in manual mode where it should have been. There is no reason the IS-F should have lost this event and the win should have gone to the IS-F with the extra torque. For those of you not familiar with the IS-F's transmission, only when the car is in manual sport mode does the transmission lock up the torque converter allowing much faster shifts and higher shift points which typically result in 3/10's improvement in the quarter mile.

Road Course
- This is a drivers race and it could go either way. IS-F or M3

In a nutshell it should have been 2 to 2, but would give the edge to the M3 for these specific events.

[punksterz626]

IS-F got own'd! The M3 downhill 0-100-0 was very impressive!

[Crazy Bimmer]

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

In a nutshell it should have been 2 to 2, but would give the edge to the M3 for these specific events.

whoa your IS-F did 12.2 in the 1/4 all stock? Impressive.

[kcdude24]

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

I do believe Paul Tracy was giving
it 100% with his comments and the way he was pushing the car as opposed to Tanner who appeared to just be giving it 95% with his lackluster comments and the way he was not pushing the car in manual mode as it should have been.

Really? All that smack talk on the show between the two plus he currently owns a M3 and is well aware how to keep these cars on full boil and you think he only gave it 95%...guy is a competitor and the IS-F just got owned.

Great show...too bad the M3 didn't go for the love tap in the last run to avoid the weeds.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

There is no reason the IS-F should have lost this event and the win should have gone to the IS-F with the extra torque.

Uhhh no! M3 is high-revving and it produces tons more torque thanks to torque multiplication and 8400 rpm redline through gears once it is in the very high revs. The M-DCT M3 has very very short first 5 gears. You should read up on high revving philosophy to understand how it works.

high torque = (high rpm + high horsepower)

For a race like this, horsepower is the king. Once at redline only horsepower and high rpm torque is used. Torque can only get you faster out of a hole. Despite the early jump Tanner got in the IS-F, by about 1/4 mile, the M3 was passing it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Sedan_Clan]

They should have used a traditional manual M3.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

So after more thought and having watched this episode twice more I have come to the following conclusion. I do believe Paul Tracy was giving
it 100% with his comments and the way he was pushing the car as opposed to Tanner who appeared to just be giving it 95% with his lackluster comments and the way he was not pushing the car in manual mode as it should have been.

0-100-0
-Being that the M3 DCT has launch control and is lighter I would give this event win to the M3.

60-100
- Because of the gearing the IS-F is not in a good position with this kind of roll on race. The M3 at 60mph is in it's sweet spot in the top end of second gear. The IS-F on the otherhand at 60mph is almost at it's rev limiter in second gear so would most likely have to run from 3rd gear. Win as expected in this situation goes to the M3.

1/2 Mile Sprint
- It's apparent the IS-F was not being pushed 100% or more here. At the start of this event, the camera is in the IS-F and you can see the car shifting automatically and NOT in manual mode where it should have been. There is no reason the IS-F should have lost this event and the win should have gone to the IS-F with the extra torque. For those of you not familiar with the IS-F's transmission, only when the car is in manual sport mode does the transmission lock up the torque converter allowing much faster shifts and higher shift points which typically result in 3/10's improvement in the quarter mile.

Road Course
- This is a drivers race and it could go either way. IS-F or M3

In a nutshell it should have been 2 to 2, but would give the edge to the M3 for these specific events.

Thanks for noting the road course is indeed a driver's race. People who didn't understand racing at all wouldn't have comprehended that way.

But you are misinformed on the torque comment that ISF would have beaten the M3:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157633

if ISF can't beat C63, it's not going to beat M3 DCT.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by miktrebla09

Anyone know if they race the revised 2011 IS-F?

Nah it was the older one. The new one has some subtle cosmetic enhancements (like LEDs, etc.) that were not on the ISF in this episode, so it had to have been the older one.

Supposedly the new one has improved suspension that would make it better on a road course, but it would not have made a difference in a straight line.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by mdosu

Thanks for noting the road course is indeed a driver's race. People who didn't understand racing at all wouldn't have comprehended that way.

But you are misinformed on the torque comment that ISF would have beaten the M3:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157633

if ISF can't beat C63, it's not going to beat M3 DCT.

Well I think his point was that the 60 MPH roll race is tailored for the M3 and not the ISF because of the way each car is geared. If the ISF had to start in 3rd gear well out of the powerband at 60, it's clear why the M3 would obviously win.

Here's an ISF vs C63 (both are slightly modded, I don't know what the effects of the mods are so I'm going to assume they are similar) from a roll that I just found on youtube, for example -

Loses to the C63 obviously but it's not rape. The difference here is I'm sure the ISF owner asked for a roll race where he was able to start at the beginning of his powerband (probably 40 or 45 roll in 2nd gear if I had to guess, but I don't know).

But then of course the question is - what about the C63? Was that roll race ideal for the C63? I don't know, I'm not familiar with the ISF nor the C63, but I am very familiar with the concept of cars offering optimal roll acceleration from very well defined MPHs depending on gearing/powerband.

This is why in the world of roll racing it's customary and appropriate to always do a minimum of 2 roll races, one on each racer's terms (ex. one person might ask for a 45 roll while the other might ask for a 60 roll due to the way each respective car is geared).

And, not surprisingly, if car 1 asked for the 45 roll and assuming both car 1 and car 2 are similar, car 1 usually ends up winning the 45 roll. If car 2 asked for the 60 roll, car 2 usually ends up winning the 60 roll, because each owner is well aware of the optimum roll point (MPH) for their car that leads to optimal acceleration.

[double_j]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Uhhh no! M3 is high-revving and it produces tons more torque thanks to torque multiplication and 8400 rpm redline through gears once it is in the very high revs. The M-DCT M3 has very very short first 5 gears. You should read up on high revving philosophy to understand how it works.

high torque = (high rpm + high horsepower)

For a race like this, horsepower is the king. Once at redline only horsepower and high rpm torque is used. Torque can only get you faster out of a hole. Despite the early jump Tanner got in the IS-F, by about 1/4 mile, the M3 was passing it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Isn't it HP = Torque * RPM?

I wouldn't say the M3's torque is monstrous but we do have the advantage of having all of our torque available over a very wide range.

[330CIZHP]

Yes, correct. My indirect implication of your equation is what I wrote it. At very high rpm, if you are making very high horsepower, that means you are making high rpm torque. That is why most cars do not rev over 6800 - 7000 rpm since they are not built for that so their torque curves fall on their face thus negating the HP.

Terminology of "torque monster" is used generally for low end torque, which is a function of displacement of the engine since it is "the power the engine can generate effortlessly without doing much work". Much like, muscle cars are. In a sense, "effortless power" is what is synonymous with "torque monster".

A high revving engine needs to work hard to generate all the torque with the help of its "short midget" friends offering multiplication in its resultant force without compromising on speed range per gear due to the high redline (the gearbox).

A simple example is Porsche 911 997.2 GT3 that makes 317 ft-lbs of torque and 435 HP while the Corvette C6 Grand Sport makes 435 HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque. Both cars roughly weigh the same at 3300 lbs. Which car is faster? Ofcourse, the GT3, which can hit 11.8@ 118 mph in the 1/4 mile compared to 12.5@115 mph for the Corvette C6 GS due to its high redline and short gearing from any speed.

Originally Posted by double_j

Isn't it HP = Torque * RPM?

I wouldn't say the M3's torque is monstrous but we do have the advantage of having all of our torque available over a very wide range.

[rominl]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

They should have used a traditional manual M3.

why? the dct is faster

[caymandiver75]

Props to the M3 for winning, but it may have been more appropriate to have used an M3 sedan keeping it sedan vs sedan. Also the IS-F was NOT in sport manual mode which would have certainly made a difference in the outcome. It was close for what it was and im surprised the IS-F did as well considering. In any case it was an entertaining show and a win is a win so congrats.

[MTROIS]

...with the exception of the road course... I found this episode a little boring.

Anyhow, I must say that I really dig Melbourne Red + ZCP...

[aus]

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

So after more thought and having watched this episode twice more I have come to the following conclusion. I do believe Paul Tracy was giving
it 100% with his comments and the way he was pushing the car as opposed to Tanner who appeared to just be giving it 95% with his lackluster comments and the way he was not pushing the car in manual mode as it should have been.

1/2 Mile Sprint
- It's apparent the IS-F was not being pushed 100% or more here. At the start of this event, the camera is in the IS-F and you can see the car shifting automatically and NOT in manual mode where it should have been. There is no reason the IS-F should have lost this event and the win should have gone to the IS-F with the extra torque. For those of you not familiar with the IS-F's transmission, only when the car is in manual sport mode does the transmission lock up the torque converter allowing much faster shifts and higher shift points which typically result in 3/10's improvement in the quarter mile.

In a nutshell it should have been 2 to 2, but would give the edge to the M3 for these specific events.

So Tracey was pushing hard because he's obnoxius? And Tanner wasn't pushing it hard... but did cheated TWICE to try to win?

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

Props to the M3 for winning, but it may have been more appropriate to have used an M3 sedan keeping it sedan vs sedan. Also the IS-F was NOT in sport manual mode which would have certainly made a difference in the outcome. It was close for what it was and im surprised the IS-F did as well considering. In any case it was an entertaining show and a win is a win so congrats.

The sedan is just as fast as the Coupe.

[330CIZHP]

I don't see anyone of the M3 owners saying the "M3 was not in manual mode otherwise it would have pulled even harder"??

There is far stronger and iron clad evidence of M3 running in automatic mode than the IS-F since tapping a paddle is barely noticeable by any camera that is not focused on the hands.

Tanner was braking torquing the hell out of the IS-F as was noticeable by tires even squealing even before the hands dropped. As far as I remember, Tanner was talking about picking the right gear to start from in rolling race. That does not seem automatic mode to me.

Guess how do I know M3 was running in automatic mode the entire time?? Well, Tracy was using the launch control system and the launch control can only be activated in automatic mode.

p.s. In Best Motoring, Tsuchiya San actually ran back to back in sedan and coupe. He lapped the sedan actually faster than the coupe. The performance difference is zero.

Originally Posted by caymandiver75

Props to the M3 for winning, but it may have been more appropriate to have used an M3 sedan keeping it sedan vs sedan. Also the IS-F was NOT in sport manual mode which would have certainly made a difference in the outcome. It was close for what it was and im surprised the IS-F did as well considering. In any case it was an entertaining show and a win is a win so congrats.

[dardeca]

Would have been nice if the M3 had won the track challenge, but oh well.

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I don't see anyone of the M3 owners saying the "M3 was not in manual mode otherwise it would have pulled even harder"??

There is far stronger and iron clad evidence of M3 running in automatic mode than the IS-F since tapping a paddle is barely noticeable by any camera that is not focused on the hands.

Tanner was braking torquing the hell out of the IS-F as was noticeable by tires even squealing even before the hands dropped. As far as I remember, Tanner was talking about picking the right gear to start from in rolling race. That does not seem automatic mode to me.

Guess how do I know M3 was running in automatic mode the entire time?? Well, Tracy was using the launch control system and the launch control can only be activated in automatic mode.

p.s. In Best Motoring, Tsuchiya San actually ran back to back in sedan and coupe. He lapped the sedan actually faster than the coupe. The performance difference is zero.

Referring to the bolded portion, that is not at all true. You can only engage LC by putting the car is S6 (highest shifting mode in manual mode).

On an somewhat related note, does anyone know when this episode will be posted online or air on tv next? Kicking myself right now for not taping it...