BPM vs ESS tune comparisson ...

[zhazhi98]

Thanks for posting and starting the new thread again.

[Superfly_M3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Got this from the p3cars web site:

Igntn: Actual ignition timing. This mode will show you the ignition timing of your engine in real-time.
http://www.p3cars.com/bmw-install

That's observed timing results, not timing targets. You would definitely need both timing observed and timing targets and the ability to record both simultaneously before you could to compare one against the other to know if the tune missed its targets. Can you explain more details how you did this? I think a lot of people could benefit knowing how to do this.

Thanks in advance.

I corrected myself (1/2hr before your quote) I meant to say timing, not targets. Typo. Dunno know how you got my old quote that late

[FogCityM3]

Not to belabor the point given that thread generated a lot of controversy (and I am a very happy BPM customer and had the ESS tune), to be fair ex-tune you car should be theoretically faster due to the smaller wheel size and less rotational inertia. Those differences in tire size have been known to cause 10-15 whp differences on dynos due in tire/while size alone.

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

Here is my experience on the autobahn with my friend and his ESS tune. The camera car is BPM.....naturally.

BPM Tuned 2010 E90 M3 DCT (52k miles)
OEM Exhaust Mod (ACM Style)
Macht Schnell Test Pipes
245 (fronts) 265 (rears) PSS Tires

ESS Tuned 2012 E92 M3 DCT (11k miles)
Akropovic Slip On Axel Back
Auto Couture Motoring Test Pipes
AA Green Drop in Filter
255 (fronts) 305 (rears) PSS Tires

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Sorry, I now know what you mean. There's no way to read timing targets, those (stock timing targets) have been posted only by tuners:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...8#post13154368

Bummer. I was hopeful.

Originally Posted by Superfly_M3

I corrected myself, I meant to say timing, not targets. Typo.

Bummer too.

[Superfly_M3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Bummer. I was hopeful.



Bummer too.

Dude, how are you getting these late quotes? What are you on a 14.4 modem?

[FogCityM3]

Think your analysis is flawed..there are a lot of different customers who have owned multiple tunes and have gotten multiple services from BPM and paid full price (I know I did). These are not written from the same people (different writing styles vs using similar adjectives as only so many of the same adjectives can be used to describe a tune..this isn't creative fiction writing) and yes there are those who are happy with the product/services and like to share their satisfaction with the community. The conspiracy theories on this board are really getting out of hand, including accusing tuners of having pseudo-accounts pretending to converse with each other via postings...lol.

Originally Posted by radiognome

As a matter of fact, I've got really confused with the whole BPM tune thing on this forum - every single week there is one or two long positive reviews of it which seem to be written by the same marketing person. And then here and there posts like yours with supporters like ECAM3.

[FogCityM3]

You can always get the knock retard data from BT tool to see if actual timing is achieved by "riding" the knock sensors.

Originally Posted by regular guy

Bummer. I was hopeful.



Bummer too.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Not to belabor the point given that thread generated a lot of controversy (and I am a very happy BPM customer and had the ESS tune), to be fair ex-tune you car should be theoretically faster due to the smaller wheel size and less rotational inertia. Those differences in tire size have been known to cause 10-15 whp differences on dynos due in tire/while size alone.

That's interesting, 10-15WHP difference from wheel sizes alone? God forbid we add in the weight difference and fact that my car has 40k more miles. I am sure there are ways to prove those benefit in some way as well but in the end I am still happy with the tune coming out on top and all people really want is a great tune that kicks A$$ and that's what this video shows.

Please send me some more information on huge WHP gains and loss from these tire sizes I am really interested.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Superfly_M3

Dude, how are you getting these late quotes? What are you on a 14.4 modem?

It's all good, I'm just slow to respond once I hit reply. Still working late at night, sometimes I get sidetracked.

[FogCityM3]

The dyno changes based on tire sizes are on this thread (18 in vs 19 in) I can't find them based on my 5 min search, but if you search more thoroughly you'll find them as I was as surprised as you are, but actually makes sense. ...no need to get defensive, I agree BPM is a great product and I love the tune just saying that tire sizes do make a difference all things being equal (and I'm not saying that weight differences don't have any affect, I don't recall the weight differences between your cars as was long time ago). In interest of fairness and rather than doing a product bash fest as seems to be extremely popular these days with the vendors on here, comparisons should be apples to apples before declaring one product to be superior to the other. Also keep in mind that some people actually have both tunes and have datalogged, road dynoed, and compared them on the same car and actually know what the "answer" is.

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

That's interesting, 10-15WHP difference from wheel sizes alone? God forbid we add in the weight difference and fact that my car has 40k more miles. I am sure there are ways to prove those benefit in some way as well but in the end I am still happy with the tune coming out on top and all people really want is a great tune that kicks A$$ and that's what this video shows.

Please send me some more information on huge WHP gains and loss from these tire sizes I am really interested.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The dyno changes based on tire sizes are on this thread (18 in vs 19 in) I can't find them based on my 5 min search, but if you search more thoroughly you'll find them as I was as surprised as you are, but actually makes sense. ...no need to get defensive, I agree BPM is a great product and I love the tune just saying that tire sizes do make a difference all things being equal (and I'm not saying that weight differences don't have any affect, I don't recall the weight differences between your cars as was long time ago). In interest of fairness and rather than doing a product bash fest as seems to be extremely popular these days with the vendors on here, comparisons should be apples to apples before declaring one product to be superior to the other. Also keep in mind that some people actually have both tunes and have datalogged, road dynoed, and compared them on the same car and actually know what the "answer" is.

I am not trying to be defensive, I would hope we are on the same team. I would look into the whole 18' v 19' sometime to read more on it.

If there are people out there with the "answer" then what the hell is going on? Where are the results?

[FogCityM3]

Got it.


As far as the "answer" maybe such people have both tunes don't want to create an accusatory/conspiracy theorist s&itstorm which is the last thing this place needs, or 2) even less of a need to create one if the tunes objectively produce roughly the same power increases

Originally Posted by STi_traitor

I am not trying to be defensive, I would hope we are on the same team. I would look into the whole 18' v 19' sometime to read more on it.

If there are people out there with the "answer" then what the hell is going on? Where are the results?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

You can always get the knock retard data from BT tool to see if actual timing is achieved by "riding" the knock sensors.

So you're saying there's separate BT settings for actual timing, and knock retard data. Would be great to overlay the two on a graph. I think I might have read that before but never checked it out. I'll take a look at that idea next time I data log -- which might be later this week. Thanks for the tip.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Got it.


As far as the "answer" maybe such people have both tunes don't want to create an accusatory/conspiracy theorist s&itstorm which is the last thing this place needs, or 2) even less of a need to create one if the tunes objectively produce roughly the same power increases

For your first comment I say F this place and post it. (2) Would be great to see because it would shut this whole vs. deal down. Until then......BPM is better.

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The dyno changes based on tire sizes are on this thread (18 in vs 19 in) I can't find them based on my 5 min search, but if you search more thoroughly you'll find them as I was as surprised as you are, but actually makes sense. ...no need to get defensive, I agree BPM is a great product and I love the tune just saying that tire sizes do make a difference all things being equal (and I'm not saying that weight differences don't have any affect, I don't recall the weight differences between your cars as was long time ago). In interest of fairness and rather than doing a product bash fest as seems to be extremely popular these days with the vendors on here, comparisons should be apples to apples before declaring one product to be superior to the other. Also keep in mind that some people actually have both tunes and have datalogged, road dynoed, and compared them on the same car and actually know what the "answer" is.

I think I found the thread you were talking about but it refers to 20' wheels. Chriskm3 posted that he dyno'd 20' and 18' and the difference was 9WHP. I would imagine that the difference between 19' and 18' would be less.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=783611

[STi_traitor]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The dyno changes based on tire sizes are on this thread (18 in vs 19 in) I can't find them based on my 5 min search, but if you search more thoroughly you'll find them as I was as surprised as you are, but actually makes sense. ...no need to get defensive, I agree BPM is a great product and I love the tune just saying that tire sizes do make a difference all things being equal (and I'm not saying that weight differences don't have any affect, I don't recall the weight differences between your cars as was long time ago). In interest of fairness and rather than doing a product bash fest as seems to be extremely popular these days with the vendors on here, comparisons should be apples to apples before declaring one product to be superior to the other. Also keep in mind that some people actually have both tunes and have datalogged, road dynoed, and compared them on the same car and actually know what the "answer" is.

I also came up on this interesting thread in another forum. They show how their wheel which is wider but lighter performs better. I can tell you the wheels my friend has are lighter. I know that this isn't in the same area of sizes but between this and the 10WHP difference that Chriskm3 made between 20' and 18' I think it is safe to say that BPM is still the better tune. Let once again not forget the weight difference and the over all engine mileage difference.

I am in no way attacking you BTW, just a good healthy debate.

http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...orsepower.html

[ridin135]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Not to belabor the point given that thread generated a lot of controversy (and I am a very happy BPM customer and had the ESS tune), to be fair ex-tune you car should be theoretically faster due to the smaller wheel size and less rotational inertia. Those differences in tire size have been known to cause 10-15 whp differences on dynos due in tire/while size alone.

This is really a blanket statement as you have no idea what size tires other then width these guys are running. As far as we know they are running the exact same diameter tires and a couple mm will not make a noticeable difference. There will always be something to point out if one car losses as there will never be a perfect race. You can always say something to disprove the results lets just take them for what they are. I could care less which is faster as we drive our cars wide open maybe 2% of the time.

[UBER ///M3]

HAHA and it continues another thread of who has the better tune over a few hp difference between them...At one point the companies were sposed to meet and use the tune on a single car, but it never happened...IMO this "answer" will never truely come out from the guys that had each tune on the same vehicle...As for pulls lets be honest its a tune on a NA car(a few hp, really) and if youre going for 60-130 times then people upgrade to S/Cs to run with the big boys...it just comes down to customer service, drivability,reliability, and if YOU, YOURSELF enjoy the tune...LETS ALL BE FRIENDS HAHAHA

[gatorfast]

Even the tuners themselves admit there wont be much, if any, power difference between the popular tunes. Just pick the one you are comfortable with.

On another note, it seems that when a product has unanimous positive reviews people become very skeptical and begin to turn on the product thinking it must be a scam.

[lsal]

I'm ACTUALLY in the market for a tune, and would ACTUALLY like to be able to get some objective advise. I have yet to be able to get anything close on this forum!!!

However, the guys at ESS have been more than willing to run an objective test (I have seen many such examples), and so far nobody has taken them up on the offer (maybe evolve was onboard at one point)... Would love to see other tuners step up!!

Oh, and so far, all the tuners have sounded like "a really nice guy," and were very professional... Did you expect anything else?

[lsmkr01]

Originally Posted by ridin135

This is really a blanket statement as you have no idea what size tires other then width these guys are running. As far as we know they are running the exact same diameter tires and a couple mm will not make a noticeable difference. There will always be something to point out if one car losses as there will never be a perfect race. You can always say something to disprove the results lets just take them for what they are.

[mkPOTO]

Originally Posted by lsal

I'm ACTUALLY in the market for a tune, and would ACTUALLY like to be able to get some objective advise. I have yet to be able to get anything close on this forum!!!

However, the guys at ESS have been more than willing to run an objective test (I have seen many such examples), and so far nobody has taken them up on the offer (maybe evolve was onboard at one point)... Would love to see other tuners step up!!

Oh, and so far, all the tuners have sounded like "a really nice guy," and were very professional... Did you expect anything else?

I have never worked with ESS or BPM so I cannot tell you which I think is better. But I have been running my Evolve tune for over a year now with no issues or complaints. To be honest, there has been many different attempts to try to test all 3 tuner companies tunes out, but never really happened or they just get bashed by the different fan boys of each tune. If you are interested in purchasing a tune, just go with your gut feeling, many are running Evolve and BPM tunes and are happy about it. I made my decision by reading on other boards (m5boards, etc) and seeing how each tuners tune is holding up for different makes, I guess that tells alot about what they are able to do. This is why I choice Evolve. Evolve have many many independent dyno tests and many tests shown on their own dyno, which I did my own testing and obtain more than what they said they produced.. another reason why I am very happy with what I have.