More rod bearings

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by jiggz

K-M3, would you please stop posting over and over, and bumping this useless/pointless thread, it's run it's course. 10x over.

Seriously, threads like these have become cliche.

All joking aside this is a stupid issue. Down here in West Virginia there aren?t a lot of bmws and even fewer m3s. I feel like an idiot for spending a bunch on this thing and getting by d!ck kicked in by these bearings. Sick of thinking about it. Let?s just let this thread die.

[K-M3]

Originally Posted by jiggz

K-M3, would you please stop posting over and over, and bumping this useless/pointless thread, it's run it's course. 10x over.

Just conversing ... but .. allrite .. I?ll stop ... I hear ya

[NoHedge]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Ok everyone, the plot thickens. I tore into the bottom end. The rod bearing are banged up pretty good but not showing a whole ton of copper. The crank looks great btw! So now I don?t have an explanation for the copious amounts of copper. It must be the mains right? Is there copper in the vanos or somewhere else? I?m sure the engine needs to come out now, there is a lot of copper in the filter and the pick up screens that needs explaining. What are the symptoms of bad mains? Thoughts? I?m guessing mains but it?s gonna be a week or 2 before I get the engine out and know for sure.

Do you have pics of all the bearings? I saw your pic of the two bearings, but very interested to know how the condition of the others are.

Hoping my flake issue does not progress to this.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by NoHedge

Do you have pics of all the bearings? I saw your pic of the two bearings, but very interested to know how the condition of the others are.

Hoping my flake issue does not progress to this.

I do and will post them after the dust settles. I?m still in the process of pulling the motor as at least one main is almost certainly wiped out. To be clear my rod bearings are shot but not in what appears to be the typical fashion. The 2 I posted are the worse and although they look almost corroded that is actually bits of metal that marred the surface. I?ll try and get them all posted.

Also to those of you that reached out to me privately to discuss, thanks and I?ll try a provide my experience the best I can. For those of you that don?t care to hear anymore about bearings or this apparently giant pity party I am throwing, feel free to read a diff thread. There was a really interesting one about arm rests I saw in passing.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Duk996

I?m not sure what your point is here. I think we can all agree any car should provide a reasonable service life assuming certain usage. To the extent it doesn?t the manufacturer should resolve the issue either because it feels it is the right thing to do or because it is legally obligated. As far as people knowing a car might be a lemon or not see my previous sentence. Below are some bearing tops that came out of this marvel of engineering...

Your bearings don't look bad . I saw worse on BP .

The 2 links below can be interesting for your situation...

=> http://www.agkits.com/bearing-failure-analysis.aspx

=> http://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Your bearings don't look bad . I saw worse on BP .

The 2 links below can be interesting for your situation...

=> http://www.agkits.com/bearing-failure-analysis.aspx

=> http://www.bebearings.com/Overview.html

Yeah, agreed, that?s why I think it?s the mains, too much copper in the filter and screens.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Yeah, agreed, that?s why I think it?s the mains, too much copper in the filter and screens.

I really hope you can figure it out .
But there is more...

I saw you had copper shavings in your oil and oil filter (also via our PM's)
So actually the shavings can be everywhere in your oil circulation system , oil pump , oil cooler,lines ect..

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I really hope you can figure it out .
But there is more...

I saw you had copper shavings in your oil and oil filter (also via our PM's)
So actually the shavings can be everywhere in your oil circulation system , oil pump , oil cooler,lines ect..

I definitely agree anything pre the filter is contaminated but am not sold on the cooler. Is that oil filtered first or no? It?s hard to tell w/out looking at the filter housing closely (taking it apart). I want to know why the main(s) went...I?m trying to pull just the engine while leaving the ac pump behind (and charged) and leaving trans too. Not sure how successful I?ll be...

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by Duk996

I definitely agree anything pre the filter is contaminated but am not sold on the cooler. Is that oil filtered first or no? It?s hard to tell w/out looking at the filter housing closely (taking it apart). I want to know why the main(s) went...I?m trying to pull just the engine while leaving the ac pump behind (and charged) and leaving trans too. Not sure how successful I?ll be...

Ok, as promised some pics...

Looks like the ac pump can stay if I pull the engine from the top, so that's the plan. Main bearing between the first 4 cylinders is def cooked, I can see it's last copper dump still kinda in place before the finale shut down.

If it's the only bearing to fail I have no idea why. I'm guessing an obstructed oil passage? Or maybe it spun them starved for oil. But still, why? The corresponding rod journals aren't bad enough to be no oil...gotta get that bedplate off...

Rod bearings bottom to top is back to front. Bearing tops on right. The fronts are the most marred probably because of what the mains threw off...

Finally, I haven't measured anything yet, and copper isn't showing on the rod bearings, and this engine had a subtle knock when warm only...could it have been the crank bouncing around? Or was one of these rod bearings shot enough to knock? Not sure.

[K-M3]

Your rod bearings do not look half as bad as some others that have been pulled with the motor intact ... I?m not a mechanic by any means but it seems that something else (mains)?) Happened in that motor ... sorry for your loss man. Mains going first is so rare ... have you talked to deansbimmer on here ? He seems to be knowledgeable about these motors . And malek too. They?ll be able to offer a lot more insight.

You mentioned car is a 2011 right? You may not have copper in your rod bearings. BMW changed materials to aluminum sometime around those build dates.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by K-M3

Your rod bearings do not look half as bad as some others that have been pulled with the motor intact ... I?m not a mechanic by any means but it seems that something else (mains)?) Happened in that motor ... sorry for your loss man. Mains going first is so rare ... have you talked to deansbimmer on here ? He seems to be knowledgeable about these motors . And malek too. They?ll be able to offer a lot more insight.

You mentioned car is a 2011 right? You may not have copper in your rod bearings. BMW changed materials to aluminum sometime around those build dates.

Thanks, I'd love to pick their brains, I want to get to a root cause before fixing/replacing anything.

Yeah, 2011, lots of copper in filter, pan, and screens, it's def the main between first 4 cylinders, could be others as well of course...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Ok, as promised some pics...

Looks like the ac pump can stay if I pull the engine from the top, so that's the plan. Main bearing between the first 4 cylinders is def cooked, I can see it's last copper dump still kinda in place before the finale shut down.

If it's the only bearing to fail I have no idea why. I'm guessing an obstructed oil passage? Or maybe it spun them starved for oil. But still, why? The corresponding rod journals aren't bad enough to be no oil...gotta get that bedplate off...

Rod bearings bottom to top is back to front. Bearing tops on right. The fronts are the most marred probably because of what the mains threw off...

Finally, I haven't measured anything yet, and copper isn't showing on the rod bearings, and this engine had a subtle knock when warm only...could it have been the crank bouncing around? Or was one of these rod bearings shot enough to knock? Not sure.

There is wear on them , that's for sure . But I saw worse here on BP .
From what I know I saw rarely fail the mains (2-3 times) and only by the stress (extra torque) from a supercharger .
I really hope you can figure out from where the copper comes ..

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

There is wear on them , that's for sure . But I saw worse here on BP .
From what I know I saw rarely fail the mains (2-3 times) and only by the stress (extra torque) from a supercharger .
I really hope you can figure out from where the copper comes ..

I found a nice chuck of aluminum wedged between the crank counterweight and bedplate too. I bet the bearing spun and the bearing tab gouged the block. The bed plate has steel inserts so it's gotta be the block...I'm starting to doubt it's salvageable but will try.

[BeastMode335i]

Damn man, this is one of those posts that makes me want to stay away from those e9x m3's lol.. But they're so pretty tho!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Duk996

I found a nice chuck of aluminum wedged between the crank counterweight and bedplate too. I bet the bearing spun and the bearing tab gouged the block. The bed plate has steel inserts so it's gotta be the block...I'm starting to doubt it's salvageable but will try.

Oughh.. ! That sounds really bad !

I'm so sorry my friend , I cannot give you further advice in your situation ..
But I'm pretty sure Malek can give you the necessary further advice with his outstanding S65 knowledge , personally I would contact Malek ASAP !

Malek@MRF => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1039320
Please keep us posted ..

Damn !

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by BeastMode335i

Damn man, this is one of those posts that makes me want to stay away from those e9x m3's lol.. But they're so pretty tho!

Pretty expensive...

[BeastMode335i]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Pretty expensive...

sis has an F10 M5 and I see her warranty/repair bills and let's just say I don't envy her lol..

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by BeastMode335i

sis has an F10 M5 and I see her warranty/repair bills and let's just say I don't envy her lol..

Update: mains failed as expected but didn't spin so everything but the crank and bearings seems to have been spared. Seems a shame to chuck this and go for a junk yard unit. I'm going to see if I can replace the crank and put new bearings in it. I also need to figure out the why...

[deansbimmer]

Ouch. I was going to suggest that the mains ate it, but you got to it anyway. Did you pull the crank up to inspect the bearing saddle in the block? If it didn't crack then you can salvage the engine.

There is a chance the crank can be salvaged. Have a crank shop clean it up and measure it. If the bearing didn't gouge it then you can save it. Would give you a good opportunity to customize the journal dimensions for new bearings too.

Edit: Note how the main bearing failed first and no evident failure of the rod bearings yet. You stopped before the rod bearings failed due to lack of lubrication. Your situation may be interesting proof of sorts to those who believe that the rod bearings fail first and the heat causes the main to fail.

[pbonsalb]

So #1 and #2 mains. Any significance to that? Do the front ones fail first?

If mains were failing routinely before rods, I'd be more worried but this situation seems relatively rare so far. Maybe that will change now that the cars are 5-10 years old and miles are going up. Still, though, makes me want to do the mains as preventative maintenance. It's just a massive preventative maintenance project -- bigger than just changing the motor if it breaks but of course you would want to address bearings on the new used motor so it's about the same. Cheaper though if you can DIY the preventative maintenance bearing change.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Ouch. I was going to suggest that the mains ate it, but you got to it anyway. Did you pull the crank up to inspect the bearing saddle in the block? If it didn't crack then you can salvage the engine.

There is a chance the crank can be salvaged. Have a crank shop clean it up and measure it. If the bearing didn't gouge it then you can save it. Would give you a good opportunity to customize the journal dimensions for new bearings too.

Edit: Note how the main bearing failed first and no evident failure of the rod bearings yet. You stopped before the rod bearings failed due to lack of lubrication. Your situation may be interesting proof of sorts to those who believe that the rod bearings fail first and the heat causes the main to fail.

I was thinking the exact same thing! Hopefully save the crank and add some clearance. I'm trying to understand what sizes I got, block is GGGGG and crank GYGGG. Is that block side and bedplate side? Also, not sure about grinding and removing the hardening, a bmw crank guy I called said forget the hardening it doesn't matter....

Crank is still in block, bearings did NOT spin. So I'm sure the block is fine, should know for sure soon.

Also, this engine knocked, it must have been the crank bouncing around! Rearmost bearings have signs of it. I'll post those pics next, it's very interesting. Still not sure why this all happened. Hopefully a passage is clogged, otherwise I? got nothing.

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

So #1 and #2 mains. Any significance to that? Do the front ones fail first?

If mains were failing routinely before rods, I'd be more worried but this situation seems relatively rare so far. Maybe that will change now that the cars are 5-10 years old and miles are going up. Still, though, makes me want to do the mains as preventative maintenance. It's just a massive preventative maintenance project -- bigger than just changing the motor if it breaks but of course you would want to address bearings on the new used motor so it's about the same. Cheaper though if you can DIY the preventative maintenance bearing change.

Changing mains is a ridonkulous project. I? haven't even started yet. I? don't recommend it.