Just drove the 997.2 S... impressive.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

You think that the M3 is of the same quality as any Porsche.

I'm not trying to disrespect the M3, as I do think it is the track benchmark of the segment (overpriced up here, but whatever), but it is not even in the same ballpark of a C2S as far as interior quality, fit and finish, prestige, etc.

I don't care about prestige and throwing more leather at an interior doesn't increase quality in my eyes. So to me, the 911 interior appeared of similar quality as the M3 one - there are ups and downs in both cars as far as I can tell.

The price difference between the 2 cars doesn't come from the interior, the superior technology or one brand or another or even construction techniques. It comes from the production volume and the different economies of scale the manufacturers can achieve.

Arguing about how much better the 911 interior is seems totally silly to me - I liked the fact that it was a good one but more along the nice-to-have line. Given the purpose of the car and the driving experience, I wouldn't have cared even if it still had the old school 993 interior (which is pretty awful).

But if you must bring interior quality in the discussion... The one thing I did notice was how hard the seats were and how much they would suck on long journeys.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

I find these arguments very ironic considering that this is the exact same conversation when you talk about Mustang GT's or Camaro's performing like the M3 (or C63/RS4/ISF). When the the M3 is compared to Porsche all of a sudden the conversation turns to "value" and "bang for the buck"

It is ironic indeed.

You may have noticed, most people shop on a budget - they decide firsthand how much money they are willing to spend, then they try fit as much car into that budget as they can (of course the algorithm to determine the most valuable attributes being a very personal thing).

It is the case with me as well - if I wanted to switch from the M3 to a used 997.2S I certainly could - and no value-based argument would stand in my way.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Really?

You think that the M3 is of the same quality as any Porsche.

I'm not trying to disrespect the M3, as I do think it is the track benchmark of the segment (overpriced up here, but whatever), but it is not even in the same ballpark of a C2S as far as interior quality, fit and finish, prestige, etc.

That is the same discussion as saying the Camaro or Mustang is not as luxurious as the M3 (which they are nowhere close to). Can you say the M3 coupe seats 4 comfortably? I'd disagree...as would my passengers.

Apparently the new GT 5.0 actually matches the M3 in performance. (I disagree and have spent 3 days behind the wheel of one and have posted my opinions in the Mustang threads). Do I think it's a comparable car?...not even close.

I owned a 07 997S and I have to say the only way I find the 997s interior quality better than the M3 is if you up the ante and start speccing your 997 with all the leather goodies and then you have over a $100k car...at $100k I should be getting a "happy ending" everytime I get in the car. I find the materials in the M3 just as good as a base 997..in fact even better. The interior quality wasn't as good as it should be for an almost $100k car...it should be approaching Aston Martin quality for that price range. People don't buy the Porsche for its interior, if interior really mattered I almost feel they wouldn't even buy a 997. Now the Panamera is in another world..unbelievable interior.

My 997S..I miss her, wish I could afford to have both..the M3 as a DD and the 997 for my weekend car.




Dave

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I owned a 07 997S and I have to say the only way I find the 997s interior quality better than the M3 is if you up the ante and start speccing your 997 with all the leather goodies and then you have over a $100k car...at $100k I should be getting a "happy ending" everytime I get in the car. I find the materials in the M3 just as good as a base 997..in fact even better. The interior quality wasn't as good as it should be for an almost $100k car...it should be approaching Aston Martin quality for that price range. People don't buy the Porsche for its interior, if interior really mattered I almost feel they wouldn't even buy a 997. Now the Panamera is in another world..unbelievable interior.

My 997S..I miss her, wish I could afford to have both..the M3 as a DD and the 997 for my weekend car.




Dave

Fair enough Dave. I will respect you opinion as you have owned a very nice sample.

I have not yet owned a P car and have only really been looking at them hard over the last 6 months. Ironically, it is the Panamera that would be the first one that I would want (replacement for the wife's ML) with a TT replacing my F down the road.

I know this is an M3 forum and all....but I don't think the M3 interior compares to anything. BMW's interiors are weak (and I own a late model one).

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Fair enough Dave. I will respect you opinion as you have owned a very nice sample.

I have not yet owned a P car and have only really been looking at them hard over the last 6 months. Ironically, it is the Panamera that would be the first one that I would want (replacement for the wife's ML) with a TT replacing my F down the road.

I know this is an M3 forum and all....but I don't think the M3 interior compares to anything. BMW's interiors are weak (and I own a late model one).

The M3s interior is of a good build quality...just not that exciting to look at. What killed me about my 997 was the visors looked like they came out of a 1974 VW Beetle...I'm not joking. Then Porsche had the audacity to charge you $1000 for leather sunvisors.

I actually liked the 997 interior in this respect...it was purposeful, there was no fluff. If you wanted fluff you have to pay for it, which added to the cars price immensely for little or no resale value. The best advice I have to anyone buying a 911 is to keep the options at a minimum, unless you plan on keeping this car for a very long time. On resale you get little to no money back on your investment. Also goes for the PCCBs or the powerkit...you spend boat loads of money and when you go to sell it you see how much it adds to the resale of the vehicle...zilch. I ordered my 997S with just Nav, Bose (which sounds worse than the base M3s stereo), sport seats and alum. door sills..thats it.

Dave

[pride355]

Originally Posted by alms211

I don't think the "feminine" comment has much to do with the curves, lines, etc. of the female body. My interpretation of "feminine" is associated with softness and the likliehood that a female would drive it.

IMO --- the 993 is one of the most beautiful cars ever produced. The 996, not so much. The 997 is a very good looking car.

By saying feminen, I meant the soft lines and curves on 911, especially Carrera/Carrera S which don't have any spoilers or agresive lines.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Your opinion may differ, which is fine, now go out and buy that 911..I wouldn't be surprised if you end up back into an M3 like a lot of us former 997 drivers.

What I find funny in your posts is that you speak like such a authoritarian on the subject but you don't own or have owned according to your signature a 997 nor an M3.

Dave

+1
Well said

[pride355]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Really?

You think that the M3 is of the same quality as any Porsche.

I'm not trying to disrespect the M3, as I do think it is the track benchmark of the segment (overpriced up here, but whatever), but it is not even in the same ballpark of a C2S as far as interior quality, fit and finish, prestige, etc.

I had a 07 997.1 Carrera S and now have 10 E92 M3.
My 911 had full leather interior, body colored center consule (instead of plastic beige colored center consule), Adaptive sports seats.
I can easily confirm that M3's controls are more high quality. Carbon/leather texture trim is way higher quality than grey plastic trim I had in my 911 as is the I-drive screen and controls to cheap looking plastic grey PCM. Porsche finally improved the PCM with the facelift.

Only 2 things I like more in 911 were the alcantara headliner and leather dash.

On the other hand, a few weeks ago, I sat in a new Camaro (but didn't drive) and I find the interior too cheap and plastic. Didn't like the dash. design either.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Really?

You think that the M3 is of the same quality as any Porsche.

Yes I do.

Can you name me a few examples of how a Porsche 997, with standard options, exceeds BMW in quality? And since when does anyone pine over Porsche's spartan interior? That's the way it's supposed to be and always has been. Why do you think they option the shit out of you at the dealership? For all the picky, candy-asses who dont get the purpose-built nature of a "driver's car." Porsche says, "Ok schmucky, open your wallet, we're going to take this much $$$$$$ and your going to get painted center caps on your wheels." "...And here's a fresh tube of Astro Glide because before you leave here, your a-hole is going to look like you just crapped out a 3.8 litre piston."

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by shift@red

a 911, boxster, cayman with no options > m3 with speed cloth

911, boxster, cayman with just the 3-5K of options >> m3 or any bmw with upgraded leather

panamera and cayenne make any bmw look like lotus deisgned and made it.

Ive got more experience in these two brands (owning and demo'ing) than probably everyone here, and a couple people like ALMS211 know why and can say Porsche is easily one of the top 1 or 2 out there when it comes to quality, fit/finish, materials and paint quality as well.



They can because people will gladly pay it. If other manuf. could get away with it they would, but none of them hold the 'gotta have it' and prestige factor quite the way Porsche does.

You still didnt answer my question and continue to do nothing but cite opinion and blabber about how many cars you've had. Well, based on your vast experience [sarcasm], I have a serious question for you:

What kind of ZERO posts 989 times on a forum of a car he doesn't like?

Time to take up a hobbie.

[Advskier]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

You still didnt answer my question and continue to do nothing but cite opinion and blabber about how many cars you've had. Well, based on your vast experience [sarcasm], I have a serious question for you:

What kind of ZERO posts 989 times on a forum of a car he doesn't like?

Time to take up a hobbie.

+1 million

Cdnrockies should consider knitting as well.
You not only aren't listening to people who have actually OWNED porsches as well as M3's, you are hanging in an M3 forum, bashing the car, and shopping for Porsches.
You actually impress me as more of a Mustang kind of guy, since you can't tell the difference between a Mustang and an M3.

[graider]

I disagree. my e46 m3 coupe fit 4 adult comfortable on long drive. lot headroom, leg room in the back.

i've seen both in person and interior quality between m3 and 911 are the same. in fact, base m3 has better interior quality than base 911 or cayman, unless you spend ton of money on expensive option in the porsche. but for that money, you can get anything custom made to better spec. i hope you don't count leather dash as higher interior quality, it is more like an expensive option that anyone can have either from factory or custom made, but it doesn't speak for interior quality itself. e9x m3 interior is atleast on par with current gen 911. and when you bring price into consideration, the porsche is overpriced.

e46 m3 interior trump 996 911 hands down. the 996 911 interior is the worse looking one i've ever seen and everything felt cheap. looks like it came straight from the 80.

mustang interior is no where close to m3 or 911.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Really?

You think that the M3 is of the same quality as any Porsche.

I'm not trying to disrespect the M3, as I do think it is the track benchmark of the segment (overpriced up here, but whatever), but it is not even in the same ballpark of a C2S as far as interior quality, fit and finish, prestige, etc.

That is the same discussion as saying the Camaro or Mustang is not as luxurious as the M3 (which they are nowhere close to). Can you say the M3 coupe seats 4 comfortably? I'd disagree...as would my passengers.

Apparently the new GT 5.0 actually matches the M3 in performance. (I disagree and have spent 3 days behind the wheel of one and have posted my opinions in the Mustang threads). Do I think it's a comparable car?...not even close.

[graider]

how so, what kind of leather does the 3-5k offer? and you still end up with the ugly looking base seat. add another 4 grands for the better bucket seats.

with the m3, 950 bucks can give you novillo leather which is very good. the m3 is more comfortable to sit in as well. cayman/911 seats suck for long drive.

Originally Posted by shift@red

a 911, boxster, cayman with no options > m3 with speed cloth

911, boxster, cayman with just the 3-5K of options >> m3 or any bmw with upgraded leather

panamera and cayenne make any bmw look like lotus deisgned and made it.

Ive got more experience in these two brands (owning and demo'ing) than probably everyone here, and a couple people like ALMS211 know why and can say Porsche is easily one of the top 1 or 2 out there when it comes to quality, fit/finish, materials and paint quality as well.



They can because people will gladly pay it. If other manuf. could get away with it they would, but none of them hold the 'gotta have it' and prestige factor quite the way Porsche does.

[elh0102]

This thread is in need of some adult supervision. Buy the car that best pleases you within your budget, be happy, don't read the forums.

[STALKER]

My father in law has a 997.2 S with PDK. Its def quicker then my car, not doubt about it and the fact that is about 500lbs lighter helps a lot. I was actually shocked out how much faster it is then the E9X M3, we have done a few pulls.

In the winter though, its a handful because of the low ground clearance and the pretty wide rear tire. I normally shut of the TC and let the rear end come around about and get some momentum.

I hate the standard seats in the 997 though, M3 seats are much better. I would love to get a GT3!!!

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I owned a 07 997S and I have to say the only way I find the 997s interior quality better than the M3 is if you up the ante and start speccing your 997 with all the leather goodies and then you have over a $100k car...at $100k I should be getting a "happy ending" everytime I get in the car. I find the materials in the M3 just as good as a base 997..in fact even better. The interior quality wasn't as good as it should be for an almost $100k car...it should be approaching Aston Martin quality for that price range. People don't buy the Porsche for its interior, if interior really mattered I almost feel they wouldn't even buy a 997. Now the Panamera is in another world..unbelievable interior.

My 997S..I miss her, wish I could afford to have both..the M3 as a DD and the 997 for my weekend car.

Dave

I remember seeing your car on 6speed. I totally agree with you regarding the 997 interior. Anyone who has owned one would agree. This was mine.

[Cabinetman]

I will have to agree with those that don't find the standard 997 interior superior to that of the E9x M3. My M3 didn't have extended leather nor does my 997. I feel like both cars have good quality materials, but Porsche is a bit more plain. I don't really mind though because I bought the 997 because of the driving experience and not because I thought the inside was pretty.

[1MORELAP]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Dave

Wow, that is gorgeous.

[1MORELAP]

Originally Posted by adc

No offense taken. I did enjoy the 997 tremendously and if I could have one as a weekend car, I would get it in a heartbeat.

I don't think I've tracked with the BMW club in quite a while, their events tend to be busy/sold out. I'm heading out in 2 weeks again with TrackDaze, I'll see how the M3 fares (with Pagids, as it happens).



Not a bad suggestion, I may wait a couple of years and get as much as I can out of the M3.

You and I are very much in the same place, except geographically... I am in the other WA.

Lets see who gets a 997 (998?) first. I still have not gotten my M3. And I really hope I will love it.

[alms211]

Guys, I have been conversing with shift@red for a number of years and there is no denying that he is a big fan of Porsche. He also happens to currently own a Z4M and has compared that car to be almost on par with his former CaymanS. He has owned two E46 M3's as well. To say that he hates the M3 or BMW is just absurd.

I personally have owned three Porsche's and countless BMW's (E46M3, E60 M5 and two 335's). I can tell you as far as fit/finish and build quality go, there is no question that Porsche is better. The paint on my '03 996TT was worlds better than ANY of my BMW's. I have only seen the interior of an E9xM3 one time and was impressed. My 997S had the full leather dash and sport seats and they are better than the E9xM. I think Porsche has better leather the whole way around. Do I think base interior vs base interior there is a huge difference? No, I don't. Having said that, in 2009 the 997S did develop a couple of dash board rattles which soured me a bit but that appeared to be "out of the norm" for those cars. I got blasted on a number of forums for calling it a "rattle trap" at that time and the empiracle data from others leads me to believe that it wasn't a common occurrence.

Having said all of that, I know for a fact that I will be happy as "a pig in shit" with either a 997(S), 997.1TT or a E92M3. I just have to decide.

Oh yeah, on my way home from Baltimore today the dreaded HPFP failure hit me in my 335. This is one area where BMW has pissed me off thoroughly. This issue NEEDS to be a f'ing recall item. Take the 100,000 warranty and stick it....recall all of them NOW.

[pride355]

Originally Posted by STALKER

My father in law has a 997.2 S with PDK. Its def quicker then my car, not doubt about it and the fact that is about 500lbs lighter helps a lot. I was actually shocked out how much faster it is then the E9X M3, we have done a few pulls.

997.2 Carrera S is faster than M3 on acceleration, especially if it is equipped with PDK + SC. No question there.

But the weight difference is not 500 lbs if your car is not cab.
Actually, Porsches are heavier than manafacturer's claim. There are several 911 GT3 owners in rennteam.com who had reported that their GT3/GT3 RS is significantly heavier than Porsche's claim. There is one poster who weighted his 997.2 GT3 RS and it is 1475 kg with 2/3 full tank. Porsche claim 1370 kg (DIN)

There were 2 others who reported that their cars weight around 70-90 kg more.

On the other hand we have consistant weight of 1620-1640 kg for E92 M3. So real World difference between 997.2 Carrera S PDK vs. E92 M3 w/DKG is around 110-120 kg~240-260 lbs. It is significant BUT not as much as 500 lbs.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by 1MORELAP

You and I are very much in the same place, except geographically... I am in the other WA.

Lets see who gets a 997 (998?) first. I still have not gotten my M3. And I really hope I will love it.

Next gen will be the 991 I believe..kind of weird as the numbers are going backwards now.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by 1MORELAP

Wow, that is gorgeous.

My 2011 ZCP in the same spot..



Dave