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09-24-2013, 08:36 AM | #23 |
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Thanks for all the hard work. You certainly aren't a "regular guy" after all. I need to re- read your posts a couple more times to get it to sink in.
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09-24-2013, 08:39 AM | #24 |
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Interesting the WPC bearings are only using the latest BMW rod bearings as a start. I wonder what that Babbitt material is made from.
Again, nice work.
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09-24-2013, 08:44 AM | #25 |
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Thank you for your hard work and proper objective scientific testing. You're a huge benefit to the community.
While Im not claiming that it directly addresses the main S65s issues, I have had a lot of success with WPC treated bearings, pistons, rings, gears, etc... in various racing applications. On another note: What is FCT+VAC and CARR+VAC? how did you measure 0.00290 clearance when you inferred from the thicker bearing a 0.0009-0.0016 clearances? Last edited by Billj747; 09-24-2013 at 08:55 AM.. |
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09-24-2013, 09:32 AM | #26 |
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Thanks Regularguy for all your research. I have to do an oil change soon and was searching threads to make sure it was M1 0W40 that I wanted and I realized that we have the Holy Trinity amongst us: Regularguy, Kawasaki00, and Bmrlvr. Who contribute and educate the community with REAL DATA and not opinions. It is much appreciated!
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09-24-2013, 09:32 AM | #27 |
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09-24-2013, 09:40 AM | #28 | |
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Quote:
regularguy has helped a bunch with having these parts in front of him to see the differences with all the processes
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09-24-2013, 10:36 AM | #30 |
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great work regular guy! I really appreciate it. Will Autotalent be selling these WPC rod bearing kits in the future?
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09-24-2013, 10:39 AM | #31 |
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I would dump it immediately, I will take it off your hands for $25k. This offer expires in 24 hours. On a serious note, I would read through some of the threads on this topic and decide for yourself OR wait for Regular guy to add more info to this thread before you make a decision. Opinions vary, but most people aren't thinking about checking for a problem before 50k from what I have read.
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09-24-2013, 10:59 AM | #32 | |
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Quote:
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09-24-2013, 11:03 AM | #33 |
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Granted there is some evidence of bearing wear from engines that have been examined recently. But how many actual documented failures are there? How much wear can be sustained until the engine fails?
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09-24-2013, 11:12 AM | #34 |
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Damn I was hoping to tell the wife I needed to get a GTR before my engine explodes and causes us to go bankrupt. (the bankruptcy thing is a joke, no need to tell me I cant afford a GTR :-P )
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09-24-2013, 11:48 AM | #35 |
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09-24-2013, 11:55 AM | #36 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm sorry I muddled the explanation of the 0.00290 clearance. That was measured, not calculated from a single journal I measured inside the engine of the EAS car. Then we pulled one rod out of my collection, installed a bearing, torqued it and measured. There's two things we did wrong here: 1) We didn't remove the Calico coating from the parting lines which will affect the measurements; 2) I don't know which rod was used -- as I just grabbed one from the box. I didn't yet know that the rod bores differed so much in size. Had I known this at the time, I would have grabbed Rod #4. I thought I had a duty to mention this test because I didn't want to cover it up, but I'm sorry it was inconclusive as we didn't really do it right or scientifically. I have a friend sending me a set of VAC bearings soon. I will put them in the same connecting rods and measure it before posting the results. Quote:
Wait until I get the bearing photo database in place. You will get a chance to see all the ones I could find posted, along with a few you haven't. Some engine failures aren't reported on the forums, but do get mentioned in private emails amongst friends. A few months ago, there was a failure of a mostly stock M3. The rod snapped in half, and the big end of the rod was blue with heat damage. Those are clear signs of excessive heat due to lack of lubrication. There's others as well, but no permission yet to post the photos or details. |
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09-24-2013, 12:09 PM | #37 |
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Excellent data and analysis, looking forward to the rest of the story to come.
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09-24-2013, 12:19 PM | #38 | |
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I can't say thank you enough for this. Lilke most newly discovered / newly popular issues with our cars, it gets a lot of attention from both the naysayers an the chicken littles. It's a natural human reaction, but with time and a little concise evidence and information, it will become just another one of those things we deal with as part of ownership.
I've been emailing Sam at AutoTalent and he confirmed about $4/bearing and I suggested he may want to stock up... Quote:
http://http://www.m5board.com/vbulle...re-thread.html |
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09-24-2013, 12:56 PM | #39 |
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Thank you!
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09-24-2013, 01:00 PM | #40 |
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thanks for this in-depth writeup. As a layman / Non-mechanic I understand none of this. Just tell me how much and who do I write the check to? MY2013 E92, July 2012 build.
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09-24-2013, 02:51 PM | #41 |
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Mahle-Clevite White Paper Evidence
Mahle-Clevite White Paper on Bearing Clearance Issues
This quote comes directly from a Mahle-Clevite white paper on bearing clearance, then I'll summarize at the end. For most applications .00075 to .0010” (three quarters to one thousandth of an inch) of clearance per inch of shaft diameter is a reasonable starting point.Here's what this means to you. If you run high horsepower and high RPM, then you need extra bearing clearance, not less of it. The coated bearings are great, but you have to size your journals for them; and as Alekshop mentioned in a previous thread, you shouldn't have coated parting lines. If you have coated parting lines you must remove the coating in this area before using these bearings. Mahle-Clevite recommends adding an extra 0.0005 for good measure for high horsepower, high RPM, and coated bearing applications. To see some numbers in real life, please see the following examples. Factory clearance: 0.00125 Factory clearance with Calico coated bearings: 0.00085 - 0.00105 (16-32% smaller). Factory clearance with TriArmor coated bearigns: 0.00075 - 0.00095 (24-40% smaller). Recommended clearance for mains (70mm journal): 0.00100/inch + 0.0005 = 0.00325 0.00075/inch + 0.0005 = 0.00256 Recommended clearance for rods (52mm journal): 0.00100/inch + 0.0005 = 0.00205 0.00075/inch + 0.0005 = 0.00153 So there you have it: ideal mains should be 0.0025 - 0.0032 and ideal rods should be 0.00153 - 0.00205. You're given 0.00125 clearance from the factory and some may be thinking of reducing it another 16-40% with coated bearings without sizing the journals because they believe it gives them extra protection. The extra protection is true if you kept all things the same including the bearing clearance; but reducing the bearing clearance by 16-40% to get the extra protection of the coating is not recommended. Some Photo Evidence of Oil Starvation Time to add some pictures to the discussion to see what a bearing looks like due to lack of clearance. The first few pictures come straight from Mahle-Clevite. Thanks to BMRLVR for posting the B&W version of the Clevite bearing failure guide. I found the color version of the same thing. It looks like the color version has better pictures, but the B&W version might have some better illustrations and explanations. So here's both versions for reference. B&W: hhttp://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevite_lagerschade_tech_info.pdf Color: http://catalog.mahleclevite.com/bearing Using the color bearing failure guide, see example #12 "Oil Starvation / Marginal Oil Film Thickness." The two pictures below come from this example. According to Mahle-Clevite, the number-one cause of failure of this type is too little oil clearance. Next, let's compare these reference photos to some actual S65 bearings from various engines. Where possible, the mileage and circumstances will be mentioned. These photos are all found in other threads on this forum. Engine-1: Modifications unknown, stock internals, Mileage: 24,000. Engine-2: Bone Stock, stock internals. Mileage: ~20,000 This bone stock engine suffered from main bearing failure. Notice the wear spot on the main bearing and the appearance of a channel the oil made to get around it. The connecting rod bearings aren't much better. Many of the connecting rod bearings show signs of excessive wear due to oil starvation (too little clearance). Engine-3: Upgraded internals, supercharged, Mileage: 24,000 Engine-4: Stock internals, supercharged, Mileage: 72,000 Engine-5: Stock internals, supercharged, Mileage: 90,000 The connection between these pictures and the reference Mahle-Clevite pictures is obvious. Even though there can always be multiple causes of oil starvation and bearing failure, the number one cause of the damage shown in these pictures is listed by Mahle-Clevite as too little bearing clearance. I have more photos that I will post in the Bearing Photo Database. I've got at least one set, maybe two sets of photos of broken (snapped) S65 connecting rods with the big end of the connecting rod turned blue due to excessive heat (oil starvation due possible bearing clearance). I hope these photos have been helpful to see with your own eyes what this problem looks like, and why it's happening. |
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09-24-2013, 03:39 PM | #43 |
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Thread of the year!!
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09-24-2013, 03:39 PM | #44 |
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By chance, has anybody done any research into the "why" of the tight clearances? As we know, bearing clearance and oil pressure are very closely related. Any plans to research whether the stock oil pump can in fact maintain the required flowrate when the clearances get opened up? I can see this short term "fix" going south in a hurry if all factors aren't considered. I'm not criticizing the work, obviously this is a huge benefit to the community, I'm just suggesting that some attention be paid to the big picture.
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