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      05-23-2007, 11:16 AM   #45
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People definetely get too carried away with the numbers--of all kinds. Someone was quoting track lap numbers in addition to the hp numbers earlier. What it boils down to is the "driving experience", and there is no way to quantify that. When I was shopping around for my '04 325ci, I remember test driving the 3 liter A4 and the 330ci, both with sports packages. Audi looked nice and all, but the minute it started moving--just pulling out the lot--I could feel a huge difference between how that car moved and how the 330ci moved. The difference was even more pronounced was I started pushing the cars around curves, etc. Almost none of us will race the cars we will be buying. We might track them, but even then, who cares about lap times. It still boils down to how nimble and communicative the car is, to the driving experience and how much fun you are having.

No, I have not driven the RS4, so one can say comparing a 3 liter A4 with the 330ci does not inform the M3 vs RS4/5 discussion. Well, I've driven other Audis and BMWs and I always seem to walk away with the same opinion. The car mags say the same thing. It is hard to imagine RS5 will be a different story. Audis are simply too heavy to begin with. And then there is all the suspension and chasis tuning, etc. But, who knows maybe Audi will prove me wrong...

And the AWD thing really doesn't matter to me even though I live in Boston. Yeah, it snows pretty hard 7-8 days in a year. But the thing is the next morning the roads are all cleared up, and, like most people, I don't live at the end of a dirt path. So, I get a ride from a co-worker who has winter tires on his civic on those 7-8 days, and I am fine with that. AWD is overrated for most urban dwellers.

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      05-23-2007, 12:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
he probably thinks the 2002 turbo was made in 2002.
Or he probably thinks 2002 turbo was an Audi
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      05-23-2007, 12:47 PM   #47
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Ok...enough of the RS4/M3 comparisons. The RS4 isn't the competition. If anyone has been keeping up on Audi news, they are going to release the RS5, based on the A5 coupe platform. THIS thing, will give the M3 some headaches.

Key specs:
- 4.2L Twin Turbo V8 putting out 450 horsepower and AT LEAST 500 ft/lbs of TQ
- front axle moved up 120 mm to allow the engine to be mounted further back thus reducing the horrible oversteer it had.
- 55:45 front-rear weight balance
- rear-biased Quattro system
- modified magnetic ride dampers lifted off of the TT
- carbon ceramic brakes lifted off the R8

Only rumored performance times are the 0-60 which is rated at "sub 4.5 seconds"

All this for an MSRP of $53,000. Possible M3 killer?

Linky: http://www.tuningnews.net/article.php?date=070512a
kk correct me if im wrong.. but the info he got isnt right to what i saw on msn autos..

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/fu...d=&usage=Image

Msn autos says that its gonna have 354HP and 325 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
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      05-23-2007, 12:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by XkztreM View Post
kk correct me if im wrong.. but the info he got isnt right to what i saw on msn autos..

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/fu...d=&usage=Image

Msn autos says that its gonna have 354HP and 325 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
Um, RS5 != S5

But you are correct that some of his info was indeed BS (like the price) and the rest is all speculation anyway.
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      05-23-2007, 02:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by sflemon View Post
Off topic anyway.

Back on.........

Why I think this car is better than the new M3? We can't really say until we see track/drag numbers and a true price.

Until then, for Audi fans, and M3 fans, all this is mental masturbation trying to justify or refute a car's status.

As for older models, the track times are all over the place depending on where you look. On topgear.com, there a LOT of BMW times on their charts and a few VW/Audi times. Comparing like for like competitors, the standard outgoing M3 came in at 1.31.8 and the S4 came in at 1.30.9
Seeing as these aren't done on identical days, let's chalk it flat for the .9 difference. The M3 edges the S4 in base trim by 7 seconds on the Nurburgring. Seeing the S4 in base trim has 265bhp vs. the M3's 333bhp, it was at an obvious disadvantage. The RS4, with 375bhp edges the M3 by 10 seconds.

So, it becomes difficult to compare on a trim vs. trim basis on cost and power. The trim levels are just so different as is the power at each trim. BMW at one trim romps the Audi, the Audi in a different trim romps the BMW.
Here was hope that another one would take that "statement" on so I don't have to, but nevertheless.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm trying not to comment your verbal lapses, so here are the facts:
You're telling the M3 being 7 seconds faster on Nürburgring than the S4. Right, but that's the B6 S4, so we're not talking about 265bhp on the S4, we're talking about 344bhp (in germany - that's one hp more than the M3 had in Germany). So no power advantage at all for the M3, same power which resulted in 7 seconds difference. The S4 you're talking about (B5) does the Ring in 8.42 (so we're at 20 seconds!).
Referring the RS4 you're providing the same kind of misinformation: The 375bhp achieved a 8.25 (3 seconds slower than M3).
So who's the fanboy now? Stop bashing with wrong information! :mad:
To cool down you could read some S5/335i comparisons to get an idea who the duel between M3 and RS5 will end...

Best regards, south
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      05-23-2007, 02:53 PM   #50
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These comparo's could go on forever...........

Bottom line is BMW is and always will be a different kind of car than Audi....

Neither is better or worse, just depends on what you are looking for......

We should all be thankful for the variety we get to choose from in cars and leave it at that.



And BTW, don't even get me started on Mercedes.............
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      05-24-2007, 01:52 AM   #51
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Typical BMW fanboy speak. Di*& off.
let me help you understand your place in this forum: a bottom rung newcomer who shot all his credibility in his first 3 posts.


but then i'm sure you've heard complaints about shooting your wad too early all too many times before.
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      05-24-2007, 03:29 AM   #52
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Way to much conjecture.

I'll wait until there is some official data before forming an opinion. Is it official that the RS5 will have twin-turbos and the specs are correct?

Hell, we don't even know the M3 performance yet.
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      05-24-2007, 05:10 AM   #53
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You know why BMW will always be ahead of Audi? Simply because they create a balanced, RWD chassis that they can tune to perfection for their performance cars. Audi design their platforms as FWD and add the Quattro for the performance model. The packaging is just all wrong, conceptually on Audi's cars, compared to BMW's. Even with this new, longer nose, it still doesn't move the engine far enough away from the front axle line and having it transverse across the front will mean that the weight is sat there, in between the wheels, whereas in the BMW, the engine's weight is spread out along a section of the car's length. This will always be the better engineering and more importantly, driving aspect.
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      05-31-2007, 10:53 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Boostedg35 View Post
53,000 my asssss...

the s5 is already over that...
lol
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      05-31-2007, 04:19 PM   #55
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is it me that car look similiar to e92? damn AUdi always copy bmw style.. wat is up.. i smell law sue lol jk

Other thing i want to point out.. the S6 is already 72K base line price according to Edmunds.com .the s4 is already 2007 Audi S4 Available As: Wagon, Convertible, Sedan
MSRP: $47,500 - $56,900 . i doubt it is going to be 53K
The A5/S5 is based on the Nuvolari Concept car from a few years back. Way before the E92 was penned. Looks like BMW copied Audi.
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      05-31-2007, 05:02 PM   #56
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The A5/S5 is based on the Nuvolari Concept car from a few years back. Way before the E92 was penned. Looks like BMW copied Audi.
Okay, the Bangle designed cars of today are all based on concepts like the Z9 which showed itself at the Paris Auto Show in 2000. The new 6 series and 3 series have design cues heavily routed in concepts like the Z9. A lot of car designs today look similar becuase the whole world is copying BMW, not the other way around.



Quote:
People definetely get too carried away with the numbers--of all kinds. Someone was quoting track lap numbers in addition to the hp numbers earlier. What it boils down to is the "driving experience", and there is no way to quantify that. When I was shopping around for my '04 325ci, I remember test driving the 3 liter A4 and the 330ci, both with sports packages. Audi looked nice and all, but the minute it started moving--just pulling out the lot--I could feel a huge difference between how that car moved and how the 330ci moved. The difference was even more pronounced was I started pushing the cars around curves, etc. Almost none of us will race the cars we will be buying. We might track them, but even then, who cares about lap times. It still boils down to how nimble and communicative the car is, to the driving experience and how much fun you are having.

No, I have not driven the RS4, so one can say comparing a 3 liter A4 with the 330ci does not inform the M3 vs RS4/5 discussion. Well, I've driven other Audis and BMWs and I always seem to walk away with the same opinion. The car mags say the same thing. It is hard to imagine RS5 will be a different story. Audis are simply too heavy to begin with. And then there is all the suspension and chasis tuning, etc. But, who knows maybe Audi will prove me wrong...

And the AWD thing really doesn't matter to me even though I live in Boston. Yeah, it snows pretty hard 7-8 days in a year. But the thing is the next morning the roads are all cleared up, and, like most people, I don't live at the end of a dirt path. So, I get a ride from a co-worker who has winter tires on his civic on those 7-8 days, and I am fine with that. AWD is overrated for most urban dwellers.
Extremely well said! My slow underpowered E36 M3 puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. I even plan on keeping it when my E92 M3 arrives. Driving experience is very subjective and I just dont think Audi has what it takes yet. Audi is making huge leaps forward but 55/45 is not 50/50 and everything else being equal, semi balanced AWD is nothing compared to balanced RWD.

I will say that Audi is for sure trying to dethrone the M3 but I dont think it will happen this generation. Cars have enough power now that upping another 100Hp can hurt a car as much as it can help. The difference between 400Hp and 500Hp is not the same as 200Hp and 300Hp. My point, driving experience, handling, and braking are going to start taking a front seat to power figures. Especially in a world where you can get Ferarri like performance from a Mitsu or Subie.
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      05-31-2007, 08:18 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Okay, the Bangle designed cars of today are all based on concepts like the Z9 which showed itself at the Paris Auto Show in 2000. The new 6 series and 3 series have design cues heavily routed in concepts like the Z9. A lot of car designs today look similar becuase the whole world is copying BMW, not the other way around.





Extremely well said! My slow underpowered E36 M3 puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. I even plan on keeping it when my E92 M3 arrives. Driving experience is very subjective and I just dont think Audi has what it takes yet. Audi is making huge leaps forward but 55/45 is not 50/50 and everything else being equal, semi balanced AWD is nothing compared to balanced RWD.

I will say that Audi is for sure trying to dethrone the M3 but I dont think it will happen this generation. Cars have enough power now that upping another 100Hp can hurt a car as much as it can help. The difference between 400Hp and 500Hp is not the same as 200Hp and 300Hp. My point, driving experience, handling, and braking are going to start taking a front seat to power figures. Especially in a world where you can get Ferarri like performance from a Mitsu or Subie.
One of the many reasons I can't wait for my lease to end. I'm not saying Audi is the best car out there, but some of these people think BMW is the be all end all of cars. And how does the Z9 look anything like the Nuvolari???
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      05-31-2007, 10:58 PM   #58
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One of the many reasons I can't wait for my lease to end. I'm not saying Audi is the best car out there, but some of these people think BMW is the be all end all of cars. And how does the Z9 look anything like the Nuvolari???
It doesnt which is my point. If you are saying the Audi concept came first and that BMW is copying the Audi then you are wrong based purely on the Z9 concept which contains just about every Bangle styling cue found in most of the BMW's today. What I am saying, if you think the Nuvolari concept shares design elements with the current BMW's then its Audi copying BMW not the other way around.

Jason
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      05-31-2007, 11:49 PM   #59
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You know why BMW will always be ahead of Audi? Simply because they create a balanced, RWD chassis that they can tune to perfection for their performance cars. Audi design their platforms as FWD and add the Quattro for the performance model. The packaging is just all wrong, conceptually on Audi's cars, compared to BMW's. Even with this new, longer nose, it still doesn't move the engine far enough away from the front axle line and having it transverse across the front will mean that the weight is sat there, in between the wheels, whereas in the BMW, the engine's weight is spread out along a section of the car's length. This will always be the better engineering and more importantly, driving aspect.
Firsts answer - R8 mid engine design. Everything being equal, mid engine vehicles have better handling dynamics than front engine or rear engine designs. That is why the Cayman is Porches best handling car. Porsche keeps it underpowered so it doesn't step on the toes of the 997.
Answer # 2. The RS4 is an amazing car and the current performance king in it's class until the new M3 can prove otherwise.
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      05-31-2007, 11:56 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sflemon View Post
Off topic anyway.

Back on.........

Why I think this car is better than the new M3? We can't really say until we see track/drag numbers and a true price.

Until then, for Audi fans, and M3 fans, all this is mental masturbation trying to justify or refute a car's status.

As for older models, the track times are all over the place depending on where you look. On topgear.com, there a LOT of BMW times on their charts and a few VW/Audi times. Comparing like for like competitors, the standard outgoing M3 came in at 1.31.8 and the S4 came in at 1.30.9
Seeing as these aren't done on identical days, let's chalk it flat for the .9 difference. The M3 edges the S4 in base trim by 7 seconds on the Nurburgring. Seeing the S4 in base trim has 265bhp vs. the M3's 333bhp, it was at an obvious disadvantage. The RS4, with 375bhp edges the M3 by 10 seconds.

So, it becomes difficult to compare on a trim vs. trim basis on cost and power. The trim levels are just so different as is the power at each trim. BMW at one trim romps the Audi, the Audi in a different trim romps the BMW.
I don't think you are making your argument about the right thing at the right time in the right place.
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      06-01-2007, 01:13 AM   #61
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Possible but too many unknowns are this point.
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      06-01-2007, 03:18 PM   #62
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Audi has not only been wining but dominating almost every road racing championship including Le Mans for the past six or seven years, I don't keep up with the DTM championships in Germany anymore but in the past they kicked some serious ass competing with AMG and BMW.
we all know there is no better place than the track to proove your know how.
Does this mean they produce the best road cars in the world today? For some people yes, but not for all. Some factors such as "feel" and "balance" are subjective not too mention the all important brand loyalty factor.

For me these debates are like the olympic line up at the men's 100 meter dash, they are all extra ordinary athletes and every one of them has a chance at crossing the finish line first. But does it really make any sense to sit there and debate which one would win and why one is better than the other?
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      06-01-2007, 03:27 PM   #63
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Audi has not only been wining but dominating almost every road racing championship including Le Mans for the past six or seven years, I don't keep up with the DTM championships in Germany anymore but in the past they kicked some serious ass competing with AMG and BMW.
we all know there is no better place than the track to proove your know how.
Does this mean they produce the best road cars in the world today? For some people yes, but not for all. Some factors such as "feel" and "balance" are subjective not too mention the all important brand loyalty factor.

For me these debates are like the olympic line up at the men's 100 meter dash, they are all extra ordinary athletes and every one of them has a chance at crossing the finish line first. But does it really make any sense to sit there and debate which one would win and why one is better than the other?

Yes, it makes all the sense in the world. Especially if you have nothing else to do.
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      06-01-2007, 03:41 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by 2002 Tii View Post
Audi has not only been wining but dominating almost every road racing championship including Le Mans for the past six or seven years, I don't keep up with the DTM championships in Germany anymore but in the past they kicked some serious ass competing with AMG and BMW.
we all know there is no better place than the track to proove your know how.
Does this mean they produce the best road cars in the world today? For some people yes, but not for all. Some factors such as "feel" and "balance" are subjective not too mention the all important brand loyalty factor.

For me these debates are like the olympic line up at the men's 100 meter dash, they are all extra ordinary athletes and every one of them has a chance at crossing the finish line first. But does it really make any sense to sit there and debate which one would win and why one is better than the other?
Yay Audi. Go you!
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      06-01-2007, 04:37 PM   #65
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Yes, it makes all the sense in the world. Especially if you have nothing else to do.
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      12-23-2007, 05:49 PM   #66
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yeah some of these septic tanks can get very bloody minded, blinkered etc, try living in today boys. serenity now
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