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      06-28-2011, 03:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Wow, fantastic. Would love to see what the cam phasing is up to, guess that's a little harder to datalog? Very interesting how much more spark advance the dinan tune is using pretty much everywhere. Scale is different on the two spark advance plots so they look similar but the Evolve tune actually appears to drop off quite a bit more at 7,000 rpm (cam phasing step change?) and then increase all the way to redline where the Dinan tune has another dropoff but still ends up at a higher numerical value. The differences in the power curves seem to track pretty close to the spark advance curve once you get above 6k. I wonder how much of that is attributable to the octane difference, since we've seen 91 octane have a pretty big effect on other dynos on other cars.
Ignition advance is massively affected by octane. We have datalogged this many times.

With high octane fuel the ECU will very much hit it's ignition targets (Stock) and make best power.

The Dinan car is quite clearly hitting it's ignition targets.

The car we tuned is on 91 and will not hit ignition targets as you can clearly see and nor are we forcing ignition.

The sudden drop and rising of the ignition is quite normal at high rpm's. Will vary from run to run.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 06-28-2011 at 03:57 PM.
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      06-28-2011, 03:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Was Hollywood Hogan running a stock rear section exhaust? I'm surprised, I'd expect more out of the Evolve software, maybe it doesn't work well with the Turner test pipes.
I think everyone is thinking these cars put down the same numbers on every single day no matter what fuel you throw at them and what ever the inlet temperatures.

Doesn't work like that.

Dyno numbers will change from day to day.

No stock car was tested on the day so do not try and compare to a stock car.

The fact is that primary decats add power. This is a fact.

The tune we do is specific for decatted cars.
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      06-28-2011, 03:46 PM   #25
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very uneducated about dynos, but can someone help differentiate between "blotmans" and "mindless-spades" cars, and the reason for the difference in output?

from my glossed over pov, blotman is running a little more boost, temp was 10 degrees cooler, but retains his stock cats, and gets about 70 lbs more torque at a lower rpm.
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      06-28-2011, 03:46 PM   #26
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Massively impressive amount of work put in by these guys to put up this much information.

Well done!
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      06-28-2011, 03:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Halen View Post
very uneducated about dynos, but can someone help differentiate between "blotmans" and "mindless-spades" cars, and the reason for the difference in output?

from my glossed over pov, blotman is running a little more boost, temp was 10 degrees cooler, but retains his stock cats, and gets about 70 lbs more torque at a lower rpm.
One achieved slightly more boost than the other.

The differences aren't huge.

Tyres and wheels also play a role in power output.
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      06-28-2011, 04:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
One achieved slightly more boost than the other.

The differences aren't huge.

Tyres and wheels also play a role in power output.
I think the boost gauge was acting all wonky for my run. For wheels, I was running 18" Apex on Yokohama Neova Ad08. Don't remember what Mindless Spades was running, but I was expecting quite a bit more due to his Akrapovic Evolution system.
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      06-28-2011, 04:21 PM   #29
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Great job putting the event, logging, vid recording and output together Aleks and PG!
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      06-28-2011, 04:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Ignition advance is massively affected by octane. We have datalogged this many times.

With high octane fuel the ECU will very much hit it's ignition targets (Stock) and make best power.

The Dinan car is quite clearly hitting it's ignition targets.

The car we tuned is on 91 and will not hit ignition targets as you can clearly see and nor are we forcing ignition.

The sudden drop and rising of the ignition is quite normal at high rpm's. Will vary from run to run.
Sal - Not trying to get you to give up the farm but what does the stock spark advance plot look like? Is it more like the Dinan car in this comparison (in terms of magnitude and shape) or more like the Evolve tuned car? Just trying to understand what the ECU is up to when it's compensating for reduced octane. Is it simply going to retard timing by several degrees across the board (what I would expect from experience with less sophisticated knock control systems) or does it also change the shape of the curve/map (what we see in the two different plots above)?

It's threads like this that make hanging around these forums worth it, awesome stuff.
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      06-28-2011, 04:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
One achieved slightly more boost than the other.

The differences aren't huge.

Tyres and wheels also play a role in power output.
I wonder if the reduced exhaust restriction on the car with the Akra exhaust caused lower boost? Way back when I had a positive displacement blower on a car the boost dropped 2-3 psi when I went catless, but made more power thanks to reduced IAT's and better exhaust flow
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      06-28-2011, 05:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Sal - Not trying to get you to give up the farm but what does the stock spark advance plot look like? Is it more like the Dinan car in this comparison (in terms of magnitude and shape) or more like the Evolve tuned car? Just trying to understand what the ECU is up to when it's compensating for reduced octane. Is it simply going to retard timing by several degrees across the board (what I would expect from experience with less sophisticated knock control systems) or does it also change the shape of the curve/map (what we see in the two different plots above)?

It's threads like this that make hanging around these forums worth it, awesome stuff.
Good question.

Here is the stock full throttle ignition target for an M3:



With high octane fuel these targets will be met.

With 91 US they simply will not.

Light knock is detected and the ECU is continually pushing and retarding ignition.

You can 'force' ignition by raising the preset ignition maps by quite a few degrees.
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      06-28-2011, 05:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
So are you guys saying there is proof that a stock. Ecu can adapt and cont advancing timing up to 95 octane or is 93 the most advanced it will go given these variables?
You can prove it to yourself with a bavarian technic and some different grades of fuel.

Even an old MSS52 ECU can continually advance and retard ignition!
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      06-28-2011, 05:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
So are you guys saying there is proof that a stock. Ecu can adapt and cont advancing timing up to 95 octane or is 93 the most advanced it will go given these variables?
quoting wrong person?
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      06-28-2011, 05:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
I think everyone is thinking these cars put down the same numbers on every single day no matter what fuel you throw at them and what ever the inlet temperatures.

Doesn't work like that.

Dyno numbers will change from day to day.

No stock car was tested on the day so do not try and compare to a stock car.

The fact is that primary decats add power. This is a fact.

The tune we do is specific for decatted cars.
Hey Sal,
That wasn't my point, I was actually curious as to whether or not the stock rear section becomes a bottleneck as power goes up.

I don't doubt that primary decats add power. What I am curious is that for cars with the turner test pipes, that retain the stock secondary cats but remove the primary cats, do you think any adjustment would be necessary, vs a fully catless tune? (I'm asking selfishly because I run the Turner test pipes with stock secondary cats too)

I've found that nothing behind the primary cats makes a lot of power, if the primary cats are in place. What I'm curious is that if the primary cats are removed, do the secondary cats and/or the stock rear section become a bottleneck?

-k
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      06-28-2011, 05:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
So are you guys saying there is proof that a stock. Ecu can adapt and cont advancing timing up to 95 octane or is 93 the most advanced it will go given these variables?
Not just that but the ECU can change (just to mention some basics):
- the rate of knock advance/retard based on the frequency and type of the knock detected
- Store knock values as adaptive values and these will then apply to overall ignition advance
- Alter the overall ignition offset based on fluid temperatures

These are just the basic things.

Anyway, not to go off topic!
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      06-28-2011, 05:44 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Hey Sal,
That wasn't my point, I was actually curious as to whether or not the stock rear section becomes a bottleneck as power goes up.

I don't doubt that primary decats add power. What I am curious is that for cars with the turner test pipes, that retain the stock secondary cats but remove the primary cats, do you think any adjustment would be necessary, vs a fully catless tune? (I'm asking selfishly because I run the Turner test pipes with stock secondary cats too)

I've found that nothing behind the primary cats makes a lot of power, if the primary cats are in place. What I'm curious is that if the primary cats are removed, do the secondary cats and/or the stock rear section become a bottleneck?

-k
Is a good question which has been investigated by many I am sure.

The rear exhaust does not really become a bottleneck in our tests which are not for the purposes of marketing material.

If we concentrate on gains and forget the final figures it all falls into place nicely. If we try and compare different cars on different days the results are not so consistent.

What we find is that we get roughly the same gain with an Akra/Evolve/Supersprint/ AA X Pipe with both stock rear silencer and any rear exhaust from the above mentioned companies.

We have fitted rear exhausts to cars on their own and the results are very inconsistent. Sometimes there is a gain, other times not. More recently where we have really become strict and data log every test we seem to gain very little power at all with a rear exhaust. That's when we compare runs where the ECU is being allowed to hit ignition targets before and after the rear exhaust is fitted.
Typically most tuning companies will take the lowest and highest power figures and then compare the results for marketing! Typically run 1 or 2 is compared to run 7-20!! The ECU would never hit it's ignition targets or the temperatures would be high enough such that a negative ignition offset is applied on the first few runs.

As for just removing the front CAT's - it should be incredibly close to an X Pipe because when we have seen secondary CAT's removed there is hardly any gain at all.

The difference between a tune for Turner Pipes and X Pipe is not really going to be that different. Not different enough that you will feel a difference and given the ECU is mostly target the changes made would need to be very large to actually take effect.
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      06-28-2011, 05:51 PM   #38
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Time for me to go put some 100 octane in baby!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Good question.

Here is the stock full throttle ignition target for an M3:



With high octane fuel these targets will be met.

With 91 US they simply will not.

Light knock is detected and the ECU is continually pushing and retarding ignition.

You can 'force' ignition by raising the preset ignition maps by quite a few degrees.
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      06-28-2011, 10:43 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Is a good question which has been investigated by many I am sure.

The rear exhaust does not really become a bottleneck in our tests which are not for the purposes of marketing material.

If we concentrate on gains and forget the final figures it all falls into place nicely. If we try and compare different cars on different days the results are not so consistent.

What we find is that we get roughly the same gain with an Akra/Evolve/Supersprint/ AA X Pipe with both stock rear silencer and any rear exhaust from the above mentioned companies.

We have fitted rear exhausts to cars on their own and the results are very inconsistent. Sometimes there is a gain, other times not. More recently where we have really become strict and data log every test we seem to gain very little power at all with a rear exhaust. That's when we compare runs where the ECU is being allowed to hit ignition targets before and after the rear exhaust is fitted.
Typically most tuning companies will take the lowest and highest power figures and then compare the results for marketing! Typically run 1 or 2 is compared to run 7-20!! The ECU would never hit it's ignition targets or the temperatures would be high enough such that a negative ignition offset is applied on the first few runs.

As for just removing the front CAT's - it should be incredibly close to an X Pipe because when we have seen secondary CAT's removed there is hardly any gain at all.

The difference between a tune for Turner Pipes and X Pipe is not really going to be that different. Not different enough that you will feel a difference and given the ECU is mostly target the changes made would need to be very large to actually take effect.
Awesome, thanks for a great answer, Sal! This matches what I've seen as well, although I haven't tried the stock exhaust. I am curious to get some dyno results, but I need to hurry up and break in the new car!

I'm glad I bought software from Evolve just because they are so willing to support the boards like this.
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      06-28-2011, 10:50 PM   #40
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wow awesome post, some very interesting data there. Thanks for posting
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      06-29-2011, 12:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Was Hollywood Hogan running a stock rear section exhaust? I'm surprised, I'd expect more out of the Evolve software, maybe it doesn't work well with the Turner test pipes.
we are not sure ... i think he had stock exhaust with test pipes ... he was trying to load stock file in ECU but decide not to ...
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      06-29-2011, 12:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpine335i View Post
I would be pissed if I had that Dinan m3. But it doesn't surprise me.
We did a quick fix

That Dinan M3 is running now with VT-600





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      06-29-2011, 12:54 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Awesome, thanks for a great answer, Sal! This matches what I've seen as well, although I haven't tried the stock exhaust. I am curious to get some dyno results, but I need to hurry up and break in the new car!

I'm glad I bought software from Evolve just because they are so willing to support the boards like this.
We are trying to setup another dyno day on July 30th.

I guess we both will have to hurry to brake new cars in

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      06-29-2011, 02:41 PM   #44
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For those who are curious...I do not have a rear section on my M
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