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      06-21-2011, 07:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by drvai View Post
Who likes which is a matter of personal choice.
Agree 100%

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Originally Posted by drvai View Post
My CA does say that most of the people buying DCT choose it cause they cannot drive a manual and not because is faster. Conversely, all people that get a manual choose it due to the "driving experience".
I would argue that your CA doesn't have much real evidence here. I would suggest (although I could be wrong) that only a small portion of M3 buyers cannot drive a 6MT. People who can't drive 6MTs will likely gravitate to a regular 3 series or the M5. IMO, most (maybe not all, but most) people choose the DCT because they either 1) have to because of a physical thing, 2) really like the new technology, 3) want a car that is faster on the track AND on the street or 4) have grown tired of the 6MT or don't like the refinement of the 6MT in the M3.

Conversely, I also think that there are 6MT buyers who do NOT buy a 6MT for the "driving experience" but rather because they think it is cooler, etc.

Until someone really owns/spends time in both, it is hard to comment on the difference in "driving experience" other than from unsubstantiated bias. From experience, the 6MT is more physically involving but the DCT is every bit as "fun". The DCT is "easier" to drive and subjectively faster even on the street. The DCT also feels, IMO, like it has a little more torque which might be due to gearing, I suppose. Being in higher gears is less punishing (torque wise) in the DCT than I remember it being in the 6MT.

Both are great... both are fun... DCT is easier to drive faster... 6MT requires more physical involvement.

Last edited by gthal; 06-21-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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      06-22-2011, 06:59 AM   #46
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i like how Porsche designs a car around a manual tranny, like the GT3 and GT3 RS. since BMW will no longer be making NA M cars i may have to give up some road comfort and will most likely go the GT3 route if i still can at the time. i like the R8 but i prefer RWD

that said i love the 6sp in my M3 and loved the manual in my last 2 M cars as well. i drove a DCT. there nice but not something i would buy. to me the DCT would be like a new video game, great for the first month or couple weeks then i would get bored of the paddles. i don't care that i am a little slower with the manual i have a blast every time i get in the car

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Originally Posted by drvai View Post
The "driving experience" in a 6MT is completely different Vs DCT.
Who likes which is a matter of personal choice.

My CA does say that most of the people buying DCT choose it cause they cannot drive a manual and not because is faster. Conversely, all people that get a manual choose it due to the "driving experience" .

IMO, super cars implement auto-clutch transmissions due to the fact they gain performance and as cars get more power, you need a more qualified driver to "dominate" a MT. Can you imagine a Veyron with MT?
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      06-24-2011, 07:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Agree 100%



I would argue that your CA doesn't have much real evidence here. I would suggest (although I could be wrong) that only a small portion of M3 buyers cannot drive a 6MT. People who can't drive 6MTs will likely gravitate to a regular 3 series or the M5. IMO, most (maybe not all, but most) people choose the DCT because they either 1) have to because of a physical thing, 2) really like the new technology, 3) want a car that is faster on the track AND on the street or 4) have grown tired of the 6MT or don't like the refinement of the 6MT in the M3.

Conversely, I also think that there are 6MT buyers who do NOT buy a 6MT for the "driving experience" but rather because they think it is cooler, etc.

Until someone really owns/spends time in both, it is hard to comment on the difference in "driving experience" other than from unsubstantiated bias. From experience, the 6MT is more physically involving but the DCT is every bit as "fun". The DCT is "easier" to drive and subjectively faster even on the street. The DCT also feels, IMO, like it has a little more torque which might be due to gearing, I suppose. Being in higher gears is less punishing (torque wise) in the DCT than I remember it being in the 6MT.

Both are great... both are fun... DCT is easier to drive faster... 6MT requires more physical involvement.
I couldn't disagree with you more. There are so many people who buy DCT M3s because they have money, can't drive a stick shift and want a cool car that stands out from the regular 3 series. There are those people, and the people who are older and have driven a manual for 30 years and are tired of it. Of course the people who can't drive stick are going to say they bought the car because it's faster, sounds much cooler than, "I've never driven a manual car in my life so I got the DCT, but hey it's a lot faster".

I don't think many people opt for the 6mt because they think it's cool. A majority of people get a 6mt because they enjoy driving a manual car, and there is probably a smaller proportion who didn't want to spend the money on the DCT.

Hell, using the logic of this forum, you could buy a 6MT, save the $2,900 the DCT costs and get turner test pipes with a tune and you'll be faster than a stock DCT car guaranteed.
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      06-24-2011, 08:13 AM   #48
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DCTs are making the "performance" advantage of manual transmissions a thing of the past, sort of like ABS brakes versus non-computer controlled brakes (though DCT is not a safety feature for poor drivers so it won't become a requirement and will remain an extra cost option). The allure of the manual transmission now is "more driver involvement" or "it's more of a challenge, in that you have to be a better driver to go just as fast" or, simply, "it's cheaper."

I have the 6MT and have no complaints, but may get a DCT in my next car (not necessarily an M3 or even a BMW).
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      06-24-2011, 04:08 PM   #49
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again, at the end of the day, I'm sure 100% of 1M owners will give their cars up in a blink for a M3.
DEAD WRONG! I just gave back my 08 E90 M3 6MT for the 1M and I can't wait for it to be built, the M3 is/was a very fun car but I bet the 1M will be more rewarding to drive.

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      06-25-2011, 08:27 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by JAX S50 View Post
DEAD WRONG! I just gave back my 08 E90 M3 6MT for the 1M and I can't wait for it to be built, the M3 is/was a very fun car but I bet the 1M will be more rewarding to drive.
I can't disagree with that. I'd be all over the 1M for my dd if the trade numbers were within reason for my 335. As some say, it's not who's faster it's who's having more fun getting there. Not taking anything away from the M3 as it is an excellent car but for me the 1M would be a blast. Add a mild Dinan tune, some lighter wheels with a wee bit more rubber (although I love the look of the OEM wheels) and this car will be so much fun; even stock.

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      06-25-2011, 08:38 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Bomb View Post
i like how Porsche designs a car around a manual tranny, like the GT3 and GT3 RS. since BMW will no longer be making NA M cars i may have to give up some road comfort and will most likely go the GT3 route if i still can at the time. i like the R8 but i prefer RWD

that said i love the 6sp in my M3 and loved the manual in my last 2 M cars as well. i drove a DCT. there nice but not something i would buy. to me the DCT would be like a new video game, great for the first month or couple weeks then i would get bored of the paddles. i don't care that i am a little slower with the manual i have a blast every time i get in the car
Very true. The next gen. GT3 (due in 2-2 1/2 years) will offer DCT but a stick will still be available according to Porsche. As much as the thought of a NA 480-510 hp, <3000 lb, 8500 or > redline, GT3/RS with DCT tantalizes my brain, I will likely still select a stick for the reasons you state above.
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      06-25-2011, 11:24 AM   #52
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Manual versus paddle debates remind me of when bicycles went from friction shifting to indexing. Friction lovers always claimed they had more control over the gearing and had a weight advantage.
Guess what? Friction shifting hasn't existed for twenty years.
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      06-25-2011, 12:22 PM   #53
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Porsche has the best 6mt on the market and that ive ever driven.

The performance of their GTX cars have been epic, and it will only be that much better with the best dual clutch transmission on the market too.
You need to give Porsche a break and not be so hard on them...
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      06-25-2011, 12:43 PM   #54
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I couldn't disagree with you more. There are so many people who buy DCT M3s because they have money, can't drive a stick shift and want a cool car that stands out from the regular 3 series. There are those people, and the people who are older and have driven a manual for 30 years and are tired of it. Of course the people who can't drive stick are going to say they bought the car because it's faster, sounds much cooler than, "I've never driven a manual car in my life so I got the DCT, but hey it's a lot faster".

I don't think many people opt for the 6mt because they think it's cool. A majority of people get a 6mt because they enjoy driving a manual car, and there is probably a smaller proportion who didn't want to spend the money on the DCT.

Hell, using the logic of this forum, you could buy a 6MT, save the $2,900 the DCT costs and get turner test pipes with a tune and you'll be faster than a stock DCT car guaranteed.
Well without any real evidence or data either way, we will never know for sure. All I was really trying to say is that it is silly to assume most DCT owners choose that transmission because they can't drive a 6MT. Of the 3 DCT owners I know personally, they can all drive 6MT quite well. One bought a DCT because it was "new" technology, one bought it because he thought it would be better at the track and the last bought it because he had a 6MT before (not an M3) and just thought it was time to change. Me, it was a knee issue.

Although there are some who would undoubtedly buy a DCT because they can't drive a 6MT, my bet is they are far from the majority. Those folks would, IMO, buy an M5 or Merc AMG.

There is a definite stigma for DCT owners from some die hard 6MT lovers (as evidenced by this forum)... I would bet the "perception" of choosing a DCT would cause some to get the 6MT even if they had an inclination to go DCT. Funny, and true, story... a few years back a buddy and I were walking past a Corvette and he looked inside and made a comment about how it was a shame that the car was an auto (well, in this case it was a true auto). Just as the comment was coming out of his mouth, the owner walked up to the car. You could tell it really bothered him. I think it is this stigma that would cause some, not all, buyers to choose a 6MT when they would secretly like to go DCT. On top of that, how many times on this forum has someone commented about regretting not going DCT or saying their next M3 would be DCT? Lots... and they all currently drive a 6MT... just saying.

Anyway, like I said, we won't ever really know the stats for sure so at this point it is pure speculation.

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      06-25-2011, 04:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Muffnbluff View Post
There are so many people who buy DCT M3s because they have money, can't drive a stick shift and want a cool car that stands out from the regular 3 series.
If they want a car that stands out from the regular 3 series, why don't they buy a 5 series? M3 is as expensive as some of the 5 series models.
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      06-25-2011, 05:30 PM   #56
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hey idiot its not an automatic.
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      06-26-2011, 10:30 AM   #57
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I was at the dealership yesterday because my DRL on the left was out. I got talking to the Service Manager and he started talking about the 1M.

He stated that that 1M doesn't have an M tuned engine. Who tuned the 1M's engine? Is it an S engine? Just curious....
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      06-26-2011, 01:53 PM   #58
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Manual versus paddle debates remind me of when bicycles went from friction shifting to indexing. Friction lovers always claimed they had more control over the gearing and had a weight advantage.
Guess what? Friction shifting hasn't existed for twenty years.
I can't agree with that analogy at all. I am an avid cyclist (raced competively for a number of years and still ride hardcore) and know exactly what you mean but do not think friction shifting/index shifting relate to the manual/DCT debate. Most of us who love a manual gearbox know that it is inferior to a DCT but don't care as it's the act and feel of shifting period. FTR I don't think that a manual provides more control over a DCT. I really have a hard time understanding why DCT people insist on using the evolving technology card. (I am not necessarily referring to you). DCT is faster but a bit boring at times to me and some others. THAT is all that matters.

Cyclists who feel/felt that friction shifting provided better control and had weight savings worth mentioning are delusional. I have no such delusions about a manual over DCT, although a manual is lighter. We all know that really doesn't make a difference to the average driver.

Last edited by devo; 06-26-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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      06-26-2011, 01:58 PM   #59
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the 1M is the N54 with more boost IIRC. It is NOT an 'S' engine.
That is basically what A "S" engine is isn't it?
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      06-26-2011, 02:18 PM   #60
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In the true sense of an M engine, I would say no.

Its weird, because the x5m/x6m still have S designated engines, but the 1M does not, so I would venture a guess to say there is much more work done to the tt v8 than there is the 1M N54. Otherwise, why wouldnt BMW call it an S engine?

Maybe someone has more details on this??
Sorry I probably confused matters more with my previous post. I do realize that the 1M does not have a "M" engine designed specifically for that car. It is essentially tuned (for more boost) transplant from the 335. What I was saying was that an "S" engine is basically a tuned 335 or N54 engine nothing more iircc.
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      06-26-2011, 04:55 PM   #61
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I just looked at the insides of the 1M. The engine says "Powered by BMW M". It does not have the ///M badge and is not exclusive to the M Division. Hopefully BMW do not dilute the M Division this way because the engine from the present M3 is not present in a non-M car and the same applies to the old M5/6 with the V10.

I am saddened to see that BMW are going the Mercedes way & are not going to have exclusive M engines. I guess the company does what is best for their bottom line. My E92 M3 may end up being my last M car....
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      06-26-2011, 05:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bobbyd1961 View Post
hey idiot its not an automatic.
Of course it's an automatic. Two pedals, shifts itself or lets you shift it, exactly like GM's first Hydramatic from over 70 years ago.

I don't think there's a stigma attached to autos any more (because they're just so damned good), but apparently you do.

Get over it. Other than some less-endearing traits in everyday traffic (not as silky smooth as a torque converter), the DCT is a completely terrific auto. One of the best out there.

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      06-26-2011, 06:55 PM   #63
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I can't agree with that analogy at all. I am an avid cyclist (raced competively for a number of years and still ride hardcore) and know exactly what you mean but do not think friction shifting/index shifting relate to the manual/DCT debate. Most of us who love a manual gearbox know that it is inferior to a DCT but don't care as it's the act and feel of shifting period. FTR I don't think that a manual provides more control over a DCT. I really have a hard time understanding why DCT people insist on using the evolving technology card. (I am not necessarily referring to you). DCT is faster but a bit boring at times to me and some others. THAT is all that matters.

Cyclists who feel/felt that friction shifting provided better control and had weight savings worth mentioning are delusional. I have no such delusions about a manual over DCT, although a manual is lighter. We all know that really doesn't make a difference to the average driver.


Well we have more in common than a love of GT3s. I have been a serious road cyclist since the mid 80s. I remember buying my first 6 speed Dura Ace group in '87 and being scoffed at by die hard Campy Super Record people. This reminds me of that.
That said, I switched to Campy once they produced a slant parallelgram rear derailleur and indexing.
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      06-26-2011, 07:37 PM   #64
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Well we have more in common than a love of GT3s. I have been a serious road cyclist since the mid 80s. I remember buying my first 6 speed Dura Ace group in '87 and being scoffed at by die hard Campy Super Record people. This reminds me of that.
That said, I switched to Campy once they produced a slant parallelgram rear derailleur and indexing.
Nice! You've been riding longer than me. I started riding in the early 90s after getting bored with running. 6 speed cassettes, ah... the memories. How about that dysfunctional egg-shaped big ring from that time period? WTF was that called? It was supposed to provide more torque during the power stroke. I believe Shimano designed it. It lasted about 2 years.

What do you ride now?

Me: A 18 year old Merlin Extra-Lite Ti frame with newer 20 speed Dura-Ace group, Easton carbon fork and Mavic carbon wheels, weighs in at <15 lbs.
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      06-26-2011, 07:49 PM   #65
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That oval shaped chainring was called "Bio Pace" I think. Goofy.


My current ride is a Pinarello Prince with Campy Super Record (it goes to 11)
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      06-27-2011, 12:15 AM   #66
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