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      06-20-2011, 10:24 PM   #45
nirvanayoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=23608

I misspoke, the M3 actually has more torque in first gear than a zo6, which is rated at 405 torque at the motor. This is the advantage of having horsepower, being able to mess with the gears. In the end, my M3 feels faster and is faster than a 335 because it puts more torque to the street in each gear than a 335.
I can tell you without a doubt that the M3 doesn't feel faster than the Dinan Stage 3 in any gear. I have no doubt that it's possible that it is, in fact, faster. I also am not saying the M3 isn't fast. I'm just saying I've had both -- I drove 20k miles with the Dinan 3 upgrades and 4k miles in the M3 -- and from personal experience, the Dinan 3 feels much faster.

With that being said, the more time I spend in the M3, the better I am at driving it and the faster it feels. Perhaps when I reach some skill level in driving it, it will feel faster. However, that would mean the M3 is a very driver skill dependent car, whereas the Dinan 3 is a car anyone driving can make fast.

And just to clarify, I have an EE degree, not an ME degree, so the wheel torque explanation was somewhat lost on me without studying it for a while. You could be right about that, but that doesn't change seat of the pants perception.
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      06-20-2011, 10:26 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post
I can tell you without a doubt that the M3 doesn't feel faster than the Dinan Stage 3 in any gear. I have no doubt that it's possible that it is, in fact, faster. I also am not saying the M3 isn't fast. I'm just saying I've had both -- I drove 20k miles with the Dinan 3 upgrades and 4k miles in the M3 -- and from personal experience, the Dinan 3 feels much faster.

With that being said, the more time I spend in the M3, the better I am at driving it and the faster it feels. Perhaps when I reach some skill level in driving it, it will feel faster. However, that would mean the M3 is a very driver skill dependent car, whereas the Dinan 3 is a car anyone driving can make fast.

And just to clarify, I have an EE degree, not an ME degree, so the wheel torque explanation was somewhat lost on me without studying it for a while. You could be right about that, but that doesn't change seat of the pants perception.

I never go by what people feel, as that is very subjective. To calculate torque in a gear, you multiply engine torque X trans gear ratio X rear end ratio. The trans and rear end are torque multipliers.
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      06-21-2011, 12:17 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Understand what M means in the context of the M3:

Still wondering if you should keep your 335i?
M = Marketing now
Its so diluted now with SUV M cars, forced induction, and AWD. X5M, X6M. And they are coming out with the X3M soon?
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      06-21-2011, 12:28 AM   #48
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buy one of each
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      06-21-2011, 08:12 AM   #49
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Theory

The m3 feels lighter when turning. In my experience a heavier car with proportionely more torque feels more powerful in a straight line than a lighter car with less torque. Perhaps the M feels lighter than the 335 going in a straight line as well as around bends so the torque application FEELS less impactfull even as the car accelerates more quickly-kinda like the different feeling you get when a small airplane changes direction vs a large jetliner.
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      06-21-2011, 10:25 AM   #50
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The lack of torque feel may also be due to the very flat torque curve of the M3. It is like a table from 3000 to 8000. There is no sudden push as the torque comes in hard and climbs rapidly to a peak. The tuned 335i has a huge rush of torque, then the torque flattens out and then it drops like a rock. Take the ends of the M3 torque curve and squish them together and you can have a higher peak -- BMW could have done this with the 4.0L V8 but the engine would have to be designed differently and the rpms and peak horsepower would be reduced.
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      06-21-2011, 05:47 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
I never go by what people feel, as that is very subjective. To calculate torque in a gear, you multiply engine torque X trans gear ratio X rear end ratio. The trans and rear end are torque multipliers.
I think what you feel is just as important as actual numbers in that you are driving the car, and the feel is what makes you happy... not just numbers on a screen
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      06-21-2011, 06:15 PM   #52
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What type of driving you planning on? M3 is nice and flashy and the v8 sounds awesome but if you only plan on driving it to and from work/school then you're not really getting the most use out of it imo....unless your plan is to drive it up and down the downtown strip and show it off to the ladies. You'll be wasting gas since it sucks up a lot of fuel. In that case I'd go with the 335 where you feel that low end torque that the M3 lacks. You'll get pretty good gas mileage compared to the M3 so you'll be able to use the money you save to buy a piggyback tune which will allow you to smoke the M3 if that's all you are trying to achieve.

If you get a chance to drive both the 335 and the M3 on the track (not dragstrip), you'll be able to appreciate what the M3 is all about. And if you plan on tracking your car a few times a year, you won't regret going with the M3. At least that's how i feel.
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      06-22-2011, 01:49 AM   #53
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You track? M3 is better
You want a show car? M3 is better
You want a fast DD? 335i is better
YOu want to save 444? 335i is better (a CPO 08 with the N54)

The M3 is a dream at handling... the 335i is great too, but the suspension is not meant for sweepers and sharp turns like the M3 is. Any BMW is more than enough for the streets regarding handling. The M3 is actually more comfortable as well because of the 335i's STUPID STUPID RFT.


I couldn't justify the $20,000+ difference between a 335i and a M3 in 08...specially because I don't track.
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      06-22-2011, 10:39 AM   #54
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This is why you get an MT and slip the clutch.
Launch at an RPM that has good torque.

-scheherazade
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      06-22-2011, 01:47 PM   #55
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In a true apples to apples comparison a Dinan Stage 3 and a M3 will be extremely close in straight line performance. Why? Because they both have almost exactly the same power to weight ratio. The DCT will give the M3 a slight edge but with either tranny it will be a drivers race. In the twisties forget about it...

I can post up some simulations showing the results in gory detail but then we would probably also have the argument that physics is wrong and cars can not be simulated...

Also forget about engine torque as others have stated. Well don't forget about it entirely it can be fun but it does not buy you real results. Once you graduate to torque to the wheels instead of engine torque you will start to "get it". Then you can take one more step and realize that this is basically long hand for peak power.
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      06-23-2011, 11:06 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thai357sig View Post
Dude,
Get a fukkin civic and mod the shit out of it! It will bet the crap out of any Modded 335 and non modded M3.

Because that is what seems to be important to you. Torque and HP. All the factors point to one thing, you are probably still an adolescent and want cheap power. The M3 cannot comepete!
"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
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      06-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #57
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I've owned a tuned 335i and a C63. Both have gobs of torque but neither possesses the unique feel of the M3s v8. It just feels different and more special than other road cars.

Handling wise, the M3 spanks the C63 and has a much more solid feel (as do most BMWs compared to other brands).
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