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      06-22-2011, 12:42 AM   #45
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As for your driving style thats easy to figure out. They just have to hook it up to computer and they'll be able to determine how hard he drove. I was visiting a friend who is a manager at the dealer and this guy came in complaining his tires only lasted 5k. I went and looked at the tires and the cords were showing. The guy was an IB guy from Goldman and was giving attitude. He swore he didnt drive the car hard. They hooked it up and found out he was beating the shit out of the car. DENIED!
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      06-22-2011, 01:07 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
We are not allowed to rev it up to 8K? You must be kidding me.
Don't be a drama queen man. A lot of owners drive their M3s hard, and nothing breaks. But they're not abusing their cars .

That's why owners of expensive cars NEVER do launches; wheel hop can cause serious damage. Not to mention the abuse the drivetrain (especially clutch, transmission, differential) and suspension take. Somebody found a post from the OP complaining of wheel hop, but most of us didn't need that 'proof' to know abuse was involved. The M3 is a good circuit car, but not a drag racer.

Finally, for those who think an expert can't know what caused damage like the OP's to your car, think again. It's like thinking a forensic pathologist can miss a broken bone. They're going to know. Waranty covers DEFECTS, not abuse. I'd be MUCH more sympathetic with an honest owner than one trying to fool me ... even if I couldn't help him.

Last edited by elp_jc; 06-22-2011 at 01:20 AM.
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      06-22-2011, 02:14 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Don't be a drama queen man.
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Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
That's why owners of expensive cars NEVER do launches; wheel hop can cause serious damage. Not to mention the abuse the drivetrain (especially clutch, transmission, differential) and suspension take. Somebody found a post from the OP complaining of wheel hop, but most of us didn't need that 'proof' to know abuse was involved. The M3 is a good circuit car, but not a drag racer.
Well don't be an absolutist either. There is plenty of daily "abuse" and launching done of M3s, street and strip. Saying otherwise along with the "NEVER" qualifier is patently false. Although such types of "driving" will certainly cause accelerated wear it should not cause catastrophic failure in a nearly new car. Probably the first thing to go under such agressive driving would be a normal wear item - the clutch...

Now these corrections being stated, I too am still highly suspicious of the owners claimed driving style.
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      06-22-2011, 06:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
That's why owners of expensive cars NEVER do launches; wheel hop can cause serious damage. Not to mention the abuse the drivetrain (especially clutch, transmission, differential) and suspension take. Somebody found a post from the OP complaining of wheel hop, but most of us didn't need that 'proof' to know abuse was involved. The M3 is a good circuit car, but not a drag racer.
Admittedly, I've only launched mine once...just to try it. I don't doubt that it does puts a strain on the car. Mines running like a champ and I really don't want to roll the dice on doing something that might change that.
But...
If BMW makes a car that rev's to 8400rpm and has LC...then I don't see how they could refuse warranty to someone who used the capability. Even the manual cautions against overuse, but doesn't say it'll void your warranty.
I think there's more to this. Something along the lines of what some others have said...they discovered a modification to the car.
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      06-22-2011, 09:09 AM   #49
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Even a well-done launch is going to but alot more stress on the drivetrain than a simple 1-2 shift at redline. A bad launch with axle hop can break stuff really fast since that puts a ton more stress on the drivetrain than a normal launch. Think about the difference between using a normal breaker bar and an impact wrench.
Add in driving around with some broken or loose bolts and you can break alot of stuff fast.
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      06-22-2011, 08:16 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Don't be a drama queen man. A lot of owners drive their M3s hard, and nothing breaks. But they're not abusing their cars .

That's why owners of expensive cars NEVER do launches; wheel hop can cause serious damage. Not to mention the abuse the drivetrain (especially clutch, transmission, differential) and suspension take. Somebody found a post from the OP complaining of wheel hop, but most of us didn't need that 'proof' to know abuse was involved. The M3 is a good circuit car, but not a drag racer.

Finally, for those who think an expert can't know what caused damage like the OP's to your car, think again. It's like thinking a forensic pathologist can miss a broken bone. They're going to know. Waranty covers DEFECTS, not abuse. I'd be MUCH more sympathetic with an honest owner than one trying to fool me ... even if I couldn't help him.



So if something were to go bad while you tracking the M, you're saying BMW will cover it? Rather than the owner doing launches? Why did they invent launch control if the car's components can't handle it?



BULLSHIT. BMW should fix OP's car.
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      06-22-2011, 09:02 PM   #51
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This isn't the first time reading about the subframe issue on a car that had an aftermarket exhaust. Perhaps it isn't bad installation, but very particular bolts in respect to torque- or perhaps the bolts have issues if they are EVER removed. Sounds like I'll spend a couple more bucks and have exhaust installed for $200 at the dealer.

BTW, have you watched the M exhaust video? Full on burn outs. Redline shifts. The car can handle it, no problem. If you've messed with the subframe bolts and incorrectly torqued them and there is breakage, no one to blame but your installer.
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      06-22-2011, 09:09 PM   #52
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Few clarifications, since some folks seem to take things literally here .
I said smart expensive car owners never do launches because that's the truth. That doesn't mean nobody does launches.
And on the subject of launches, a launch by itself is not going to break anything, but axle hop certainly can. And you never know if it's going to happen. A catch 22.
And just because car has launch control doesn't mean warranty will cover any abuse derived from the feature; simple common sense. Just like the car is track ready, but track use (which is abuse) is generally not covered by any warranty. Or your regular insurance, for that matter. It's like saying a gun manufacturer is responsible if you kill somebody because that's what guns are made for.

Just like I said, anybody abusing his/her car should assume it won't be covered by any warranty. If they can get away with that, great. But don't assume it will, and be financially ready for the fallout. And that also goes with modifications, especially tunes, since they're irreversible. Again, if you want a car to beat on, an M3 is not a smart choice .
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      06-22-2011, 09:22 PM   #53
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what is axle hop? how does it happen?
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      06-22-2011, 10:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Few clarifications, since some folks seem to take things literally here .
I said smart expensive car owners never do launches because that's the truth. That doesn't mean nobody does launches.
And on the subject of launches, a launch by itself is not going to break anything, but axle hop certainly can. And you never know if it's going to happen. A catch 22.
And just because car has launch control doesn't mean warranty will cover any abuse derived from the feature; simple common sense. Just like the car is track ready, but track use (which is abuse) is generally not covered by any warranty. Or your regular insurance, for that matter. It's like saying a gun manufacturer is responsible if you kill somebody because that's what guns are made for.

Just like I said, anybody abusing his/her car should assume it won't be covered by any warranty. If they can get away with that, great. But don't assume it will, and be financially ready for the fallout. And that also goes with modifications, especially tunes, since they're irreversible. Again, if you want a car to beat on, an M3 is not a smart choice .
Two quick clarifications/counter points I'd like to throw in:

1.) If warranty can be voided for using launch control, it should specifically state that. Comparing LC to shooting someone with a gun is silly and absurd. It is not abuse unless the manufacturer STATES explicitly that it is abuse. Our manufacturer even goes to the length of explaining how to specifically use launch control. And no, I don't use launch control - I don't see the point. However, if someone has ABUSED launch control (eg. uses LC several times per day), then that could constitute vehicle abuse.

2.) Tracking your car ALONE does NOT void your warranty. Read the manual. Your warranty is voided if you enter any competitive or timed events or if the vehicle has been abused. BMW specifically bills this car as a track-worthy vehicle. Voiding warranty simply for stepping foot (or tire) on a race track is ridiculous, unless there has been blatant abuse (damaged suspension, over-revved the engine, toasted brake rotors, etc).
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      06-22-2011, 11:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
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Two quick clarifications/counter points I'd like to throw in:

1.) If warranty can be voided for using launch control, it should specifically state that. Comparing LC to shooting someone with a gun is silly and absurd. It is not abuse unless the manufacturer STATES explicitly that it is abuse. Our manufacturer even goes to the length of explaining how to specifically use launch control. And no, I don't use launch control - I don't see the point. However, if someone has ABUSED launch control (eg. uses LC several times per day), then that could constitute vehicle abuse.

2.) Tracking your car ALONE does NOT void your warranty. Read the manual. Your warranty is voided if you enter any competitive or timed events or if the vehicle has been abused. BMW specifically bills this car as a track-worthy vehicle. Voiding warranty simply for stepping foot (or tire) on a race track is ridiculous, unless there has been blatant abuse (damaged suspension, over-revved the engine, toasted brake rotors, etc).
I'd like to second these points. Neither LC nor tracking ones M3 voids the warranty (unlike the infamous use LC void your warranty in the GT-R). Why - the manual does not state that LC does and it specifically states that tracking does not.

I'll also continue to say this is rubbish

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Few clarifications, since some folks seem to take things literally here .
I said smart expensive car owners never do launches because that's the truth.
Not to boast too greatly but I am one (of hundreds) of obvious exceptions. In the absence of obvious sarcasm or hyperbole we can only take what is said at literal face value. Do you care to revise your statement (yet)? It is patently false.
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      06-22-2011, 11:32 PM   #56
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I do not have my M yet so I cannot take a look underneath the car.

Please educate me on this. You have to remove subframe bolts to install an exhaust on the M?? How is this so?
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      06-22-2011, 11:36 PM   #57
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Hey everyone, I have a huge problem that happened last week. I was driving in 1st gear and got up to around 7k rpm and proceeded to shift into 2nd when it kind of hesitated and grinded. I eventually got it into 2nd and when I did you heard something break in the back of the car. When I would accelerate you could tell there was something wrong with the car.

I take the car to Center BMW in Sherman Oaks on June 13. They proceed to tell me the cars subframe and differential need to be replaced. They have techs come out and tell me on June 16 that they will not cover it because of my "driving style". When I asked what the techs found out and why they came to that conclusion, I don't get a straight answer and they start ignoring me. They won't give me anything in writing either.

I was in total shock. The damage came out to about $9,000 and I think it is ridiculous that they are not covering it. The SA told me if I ever took the car to 8k rpm and I said wtf do you think, its an M3. He then told me its not a warranty problem and it's my fault.

I am not saying I drive this car softly, but I never drove it in anyway to cause this kind of damage.

So does anyone have any advice they can share. The car is just sitting at the dealer and I have no idea what to do.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks
good god that makes me worried. You saying you're not allowed to run these cars to 8K or it will void your warranty? Give me a break. These cars were built to be driven hard. Even tracked once in a while, I cant see a subframe failing. What the heck did you do? I drive mine and dump the clutch into 2nd maybe once a month. Guess I'll stop doing that. I cant face 9K in damages.
I would not let them get away with putting that back on you unless of course you were out catching 2 feet of air with the car off jumps.
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      06-23-2011, 12:14 AM   #58
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good god that makes me worried. You saying you're not allowed to run these cars to 8K or it will void your warranty? Give me a break. These cars were built to be driven hard. Even tracked once in a while, I cant see a subframe failing. What the heck did you do? I drive mine and dump the clutch into 2nd maybe once a month. Guess I'll stop doing that. I cant face 9K in damages.
I would not let them get away with putting that back on you unless of course you were out catching 2 feet of air with the car off jumps.
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Of course this car is meant to be driven hard and you should not be denied warranty coverage for driving the car within the expected range of its capabilities.

If a dealership summarily denies warranty service, even after a visit "from BMW," they still face the threat of litigation. At some point they will have to say "OK, we can swallow the $9K and dispose of this, or we could give the lawyers $X and dispose of this."

The odds are in your favor that they will go with the former. That's why if you write a legal minded and firm letter to them as I posted previously in this thread, you can move things forward more assertively and in most cases, have them accommodate your request. If that doesn't work, you actually sue them and include that letter in evidence.

NOW, if you're not telling the truth, as some have suggested, AND you have modified your car in some material way, then they can probably deny coverage and will litigate that case against you IMO.
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      06-23-2011, 12:16 AM   #59
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Quote:
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I'd like to second these points. Neither LC nor tracking ones M3 voids the warranty (unlike the infamous use LC void your warranty in the GT-R). Why - the manual does not state that LC does and it specifically states that tracking does not.

I'll also continue to say this is rubbish



Not to boast too greatly but I am one (of hundreds) of obvious exceptions. In the absence of obvious sarcasm or hyperbole we can only take what is said at literal face value. Do you care to revise your statement (yet)? It is patently false.
I guess you and I are the "stupid" owners since we launch the car. I like the part about an m3 not being a good car to beat on. That's exactly what it is - a well engineered car that can take the abuse.
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      06-23-2011, 12:28 AM   #60
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It is not abuse unless the manufacturer STATES explicitly that it is abuse.
People like you is the reason lawyers thrive in this country man . Does it say in the manual that dumping the clutch at 8K rpm is abuse? How about at 7,800 rpm? Common sense goes a long way. And I'd suggest asking, rather than assuming .

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Do you care to revise your statement (yet)? It is patently false.
No it's not. The error to read things literally is you don't know what people meant . This is not a math class. By the way, I don't consider the M3 an 'expensive' car, so hopefully you'll get my point now . Signing off this thread.
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      06-23-2011, 01:17 AM   #61
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I have purchased a few cars from Center, and know that dealership very well. I will find out about this.

By no means should a clutch drop be covered under warranty. Especially if it's past 4k - there is simply no need for that.

I have a feeling there is more to this, but I could be wrong.
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      06-23-2011, 03:05 AM   #62
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Quote:
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No it's not. The error to read things literally is you don't know what people meant . This is not a math class. By the way, I don't consider the M3 an 'expensive' car, so hopefully you'll get my point now . Signing off this thread.
No one can interpret your subtle, delicate, shaded undertones of literary beauty... Come on get with the program. What you wrote is still patently false and now you are both back pedaling and refusing to discuss it. I'm not trying to be difficult, nor attack you, it is just what you wrote is so blatantly false. Heck, I also agree with your overall opinion that one should not abuse expensive hardware. Nonetheless your statements veracity is also independent of whether or not you consider an M3 to be an expensive car. Any reasonable reader would assume your initial comment was refering to an M3. Furthermore even if you weren't, smart owners of Ferrari's and Lamborghini's also launch their cars, some of them do it often. Do you need a bloody youtube video of someone showing their Doctorate diploma and launching a Veyron to see your mistake?
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      06-23-2011, 07:41 AM   #63
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Sorry for your loss, but maybe you'll learn to take better care of your stuff in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a BMW engineer to figure out you broke this car out of abuse.
A warranty is not a license to beat the shit out of your car. If you honestly believe this car broke because of faulty manufacturing or a faulty part, you are deluding yourself.
Pretty harsh feedback. Just wondering what leads you to such a firm conclusion?
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      06-23-2011, 08:22 AM   #64
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There's enough electronics in this car...if BMW wanted to limit or prohibit something...they could.
They advertise a high reving engine...and they included launch control.
If use of either voids the warranty, then they should expressly stated that. Launch control has nothing more than a casual statement saying something to the effect that overuse "could" lead to premature part wear.

I'm standing by some other modification was done to this vehicle. Otherwise, I think the OP has a good court case.
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      06-23-2011, 09:04 AM   #65
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I'd love to hear the dealer's side of this story.
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      06-23-2011, 09:07 AM   #66
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There's enough electronics in this car...if BMW wanted to limit or prohibit something...they could.
They advertise a high reving engine...and they included launch control.
If use of either voids the warranty, then they should expressly stated that. Launch control has nothing more than a casual statement saying something to the effect that overuse "could" lead to premature part wear.

I'm standing by some other modification was done to this vehicle. Otherwise, I think the OP has a good court case.
Exactly. That is why VDC was removed from GTRs, after a short period where they revised the manual to say "if you use this feature; your warranty is void".

Anyway, subframes shouldn't break. Not even with launches. It's RWD. Furthermore it's an M. Dunno where you guys are hearing that OP did clutch dumps but lets say he just used launch control. Would that be OK? Doesn't say that it should void warranty (only that it should be avoided to use it often).

Personally.. I wouldn't launch my vehicle. I wouldn't even use launch control. For me it's never saved me any time at autox or anything. Makes more sense to be gentle/smooth. Just my 2c anyway..

I think OP has a case here. Dealership does not want to pay $9K. That is all.
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