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      06-20-2011, 08:58 PM   #23
Brucewonder
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ahah very entertaining. The man speaks the truth. I cant drive stick well thus I got a DCT
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      06-20-2011, 09:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
again, at the end of the day, I'm sure 100% of 1M owners will give their cars up in a blink for a M3.
I don't think that's really true. Maybe a few would, but there's still a lot to love about the 1M Coupe and not everyone prefers a gas guzzling, high revving V8. Fortunately for me, I'm on the side that loves it. If I could get the S65 in the 1M coupe, I would have gotten that car instead.
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      06-20-2011, 09:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
If I could get the S65 in the 1M coupe, I would have gotten that car instead.
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      06-20-2011, 10:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Agreed...
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      06-20-2011, 10:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Couple of comments...

If you think Ferrari has "lost something" than I would ask how/why you say that. I don't recall anyone who has spent time in a 458 noting that it was less fun than a 360? Have you had the opportunity to spend significant time in a 360 and now a 458 or is your comment speculative because YOU prefer a 6MT?

Ferrari has commented that they use DCTs to improve performance NOT because they care about making a 458 DD friendly nor, would I bet, that any notable portion of their customer base use a 458 as a DD. If you think that Lambo or Ferrari now ONLY offer DCTs to make their cars more DD friendly then I suggest you might have had a few too many beer tonight

I have owned both trannys on the E92 M3 and can attest... with experience... that the both are just as fun, just as involving but, as you correctly state, just slightly different.
Actually, there are a few reasons why Ferrari use sequential gearboxes and now DCTs. Remember, the California is the FIRST Ferrari to use an actual dual-clutch gearbox. All others were single clutches and called the F1 transmission because it was rather similar to the transmission used in their F1 cars, except evolutionized for the road. Anyway, so the 458 now has the new DCT similar the one in the California.

Now that we've got that out of the way, I've not spent enough time in any current Ferrari to say that they've lost something. What I can tell you is that because they're more focused on surviving in the current times, they've lost a little something. They want to make more money, like any car maker. However, Ferrari are making sure they use F1 tech to inspire these road going cars. They've also realized that customers today want this sort of thing, because they're getting lazier, but also because they believe they connect more with Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, etc. if they have a transmission like theirs. Think I'm wrong? Poll why most guys wanted SMG M3s, M5s, M6s, then go out and check on why so many people bought F1 gearboxed Ferraris. I already know for a fact that over 50% have answered 'because racing drivers use the same transmissions.'

The first ever automatic clutch Ferrari was the Mondial T of 1992 and '93. Why the Mondial? Because the customers were the laziest. Seriously, who buys a Ferrari Mondial for God's sake?! I mean, you wanted a Ferrari and you thought the Mondial was the perfect/right one? Okay... This also discredits the fact that Ferrari hasn't lost a thing.

How many Ferraris, Lamborghinis and BMWs in general? And then take that number find out how many are manuals. Granted, not many Italian sports cars are tracked under any circumstance, unless you've got a lot of money and don't mind wrecking your car.

Now, which do I prefer? Well, a manual, of course. Have I driven dual-clutch gearboxes? Yes, and some of them are pretty damn good. But are they as much fun? No... Sorry. You can say it's the same thing all day long, but I know for a fact that if you enjoy driving a sports car around corners you'll enjoy the more lively and visceral experience a manual gives you. Hitting a paddle doesn't make it more fun nor you a better driver. Some people are actually faster with manuals than DCTs, as well as some cars.

Now if I've had a few too many today/tonight, then go and find every Ferrari and Lamborghini owner currently out there. Ask them why they purchased their car(s), and then go have a drink/dinner with them. Tell me what kind of guys they are. I promise you that most of them are not the kind of people you'll want to socialize with if you'd like to keep your sanity or wits about you.

If the DCT is just as involving, what's your left leg doing the whole time? That statement you made, good sir, is actually physically not possible, at all. One is more of a physical and mental exertion versus one just being a finger workout. They may be just as fun, in certain ways, but they are far from the same experience, nor are they the same involvement.
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Last edited by I M STIG; 06-20-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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      06-20-2011, 10:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
Sounds like you just don't have enough manual driving experience. The M3 shifter does just fine.
I've driven manual for over 100k in 5 years, and recently drove back from Utah to NY in a manual 335. Nothing to write home about, sorry.
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      06-20-2011, 11:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeBMW2 View Post
Actually, there are a few reasons why Ferrari use sequential gearboxes and now DCTs. Remember, the California is the FIRST Ferrari to use an actual dual-clutch gearbox. All others were single clutches and called the F1 transmission because it was rather similar to the transmission used in their F1 cars, except evolutionized for the road. Anyway, so the 458 now has the new DCT similar the one in the California.

Now that we've got that out of the way, I've not spent enough time in any current Ferrari to say that they've lost something. What I can tell you is that because they're more focused on surviving in the current times, they've lost a little something. They want to make more money, like any car maker. However, Ferrari are making sure they use F1 tech to inspire these road going cars. They've also realized that customers today want this sort of thing, because they're getting lazier, but also because they believe they connect more with Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, etc. if they have a transmission like theirs. Think I'm wrong? Poll why most guys wanted SMG M3s, M5s, M6s, then go out and check on why so many people bought F1 gearboxed Ferraris. I already know for a fact that over 50% have answered because racing drivers use the same transmissions.

The first ever automatic clutch Ferrari was the Mondial T of 1992 and '93. Why the Mondial? Because the customers were the laziest. Seriously, who buys a Ferrari Mondial for God's sake?! I mean, you wanted a Ferrari and you thought the Mondial was the perfect/right one? Okay... This also discredits the fact that Ferrari hasn't lost a thing.

How many Ferraris, Lamborghinis and BMWs in general? And then take that number find out how many are manuals. Granted, not many Italian sports cars are tracked under any circumstance, unless you've got a lot of money and don't mind wrecking your car.

Now, which do I prefer? Well, a manual, of course. Have I driven dual-clutch gearboxes? Yes, and some of them are pretty damn good. But are they as much fun? No... Sorry. You can say it's the same thing all day long, but I know for a fact that if you enjoy driving a sports car around corners you'll enjoy the more lively and visceral experience a manual gives you. Hitting a paddle doesn't make it more fun nor you a better driver. Some people are actually faster with manuals than DCTs, as well as some cars.

Now I've had a few too many today/tonight, then go and find every Ferrari and Lamborghini owner currently out there. Ask them why they purchased their car(s), and then go have a drink/dinner with them. Tell me what kind of guys they are. I promise you that most of them are not the kind of people you'll want to socialize with if you'd like to keep your sanity or wits about you.

If the DCT is just as involving, what's your left leg doing the whole time? That statement you made, good sir, is actually physically not possible, at all. One is more of a physical and mental exertion versus one just being a finger workout. They may be just as fun, in certain ways, but they are far from the same experience, nor are they the same involvement.
Agree with everything except for that
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      06-21-2011, 12:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8dawg View Post
Agree with everything except for that
If you disagree, then I have this video for you:

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      06-21-2011, 01:05 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeBMW2 View Post
If you disagree, then I have this video for you:

What substance does that hold if any? The Cayman's shift system is garbage and purely asinine. He even clearly stated that compared to other DCT's the Cayman's is ass backwards...

Ironically the answer you seek was in your own video. The reason the DCT is a quicker transmission is because of the fact that the next gear is already selected and engaged. The time to shift is literally taken out of the equation altogether. Regardless though if you utilize the DCT with a stupid ass system such as the Cayman's it doesn't really matter, whatever gains you achieved are easily nulified, more so if the driver is frustrated and confused with it.

6MT for life... but I'm not in denial, a DCT trany is faster and as technology continues to improve the gap will only grow wider. That doesn't mean I'll stop driving MT though.
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      06-21-2011, 01:49 AM   #32
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This new M car??? is almost as ugly as the X6M. Keep it.
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      06-21-2011, 02:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vybz View Post
What substance does that hold if any? The Cayman's shift system is garbage and purely asinine. He even clearly stated that compared to other DCT's the Cayman's is ass backwards...

Ironically the answer you seek was in your own video. The reason the DCT is a quicker transmission is because of the fact that the next gear is already selected and engaged. The time to shift is literally taken out of the equation altogether. Regardless though if you utilize the DCT with a stupid ass system such as the Cayman's it doesn't really matter, whatever gains you achieved are easily nulified, more so if the driver is frustrated and confused with it.

6MT for life... but I'm not in denial, a DCT trany is faster and as technology continues to improve the gap will only grow wider. That doesn't mean I'll stop driving MT though.
We all know the DCT is faster... Tell me something I don't know.

My point was, in certain cars, on certain tracks, with certain drivers, a simple manual can still win out. Read what I posted before and then actually see the lap times between both cars. The transmission shifts faster, but in this case, however, it doesn't make the car any quicker.

Have you ever driven Porsche's PDK? You literally don't even need to touch anything because it's rather intuitive in upshifting. It'll do it when it's supposed to. Granted, on a shorter and skinnier track like that, it definitely needs some help in shifting down at the right times, and that can prevent optimal gears at certain points.

And I wasn't seeking any answer. I gave the answer. Where was my question? Thanks for playing, though.
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      06-21-2011, 06:51 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe View Post
This new M car??? is almost as ugly as the X6M. Keep it.
You could also say the E30 M3 is not the prettiest car either...
So far, after 1 month I had only good comments on the car, people who see it in person love the way it looks.

On the long run, it as more potential at being a collectable than E92 M3...
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      06-21-2011, 08:25 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
If I could get the S65 in the 1M coupe, I would have gotten that car instead.

of course it's never going to happen b/c they would have made a cheaper car run faster than their premium car.

It's why they never drop a 3.8L or 3.6 Turbo into a Cayman and give it a proper LSD. Then why the hell would you buy a 911?
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      06-21-2011, 09:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeBMW2 View Post
If the DCT is just as involving, what's your left leg doing the whole time?
Left foot braking...
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      06-21-2011, 09:47 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I If I could get the S65 in the 1M coupe, I would have gotten that car instead.
+1. Although it is a very ugly car.. All I want is Z4 M Coupe with S65...
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      06-21-2011, 09:49 AM   #38
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It was a really useless video. The guy looks like an ape behind the wheel. Problem is, he is making bold claims with nothing to back him off..
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      06-21-2011, 02:01 PM   #39
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Sounds like the typical forum troll. Immature review with no real information.
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      06-21-2011, 02:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Bimmer View Post
Sounds like the typical forum troll. Immature review with no real information.
easy... EmmRei and his buddies will infest this forum and attack you
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      06-21-2011, 02:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
+1. Although it is a very ugly car.. All I want is Z4 M Coupe with S65...
I believe Scott has already stated the upcoming Z4M will use the same engine as the 1M, possibly with a bit more power from a tune.

I would be very interested if it were to come with the S65, with the 1M engine I have zero interest.
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      06-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
I believe Scott has already stated the upcoming Z4M will use the same engine as the 1M, possibly with a bit more power from a tune.

I would be very interested if it were to come with the S65, with the 1M engine I have zero interest.
I meant the E86 Z4 M Coupe. The M Coupe version of the new Z4 (E89?) would be a lot heavier.
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      06-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
I meant the E86 Z4 M Coupe. The M Coupe version of the new Z4 (E89?) would be a lot heavier.
Agreed but sadly that ship has already sailed.

The whole time I owned mine I wished it had the S65 to really allow it to be all the car it could be with the power increase, the lowered engine weight and improved weight distribution the S65 would have offered.

Its sad how BMW generally refuses to put its best engine in its best sports car platform. The Z3M Coupe had a detuned S54, and the Z4M Coupe only had the best available engine in the best body for 1 short year (model year 07) until the S65 dropped in 08.

I guess BMW has no desire to actually compete directly with Porsche.

I wouldn't mind seeing what BMW could conjure up for a focused lightweight coupe version of the current E89 Z4 with the S65.
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      06-21-2011, 07:20 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I agree with this.
The "driving experience" in a 6MT is completely different Vs DCT.
Who likes which is a matter of personal choice.

My CA does say that most of the people buying DCT choose it cause they cannot drive a manual and not because is faster. Conversely, all people that get a manual choose it due to the "driving experience" .

IMO, super cars implement auto-clutch transmissions due to the fact they gain performance and as cars get more power, you need a more qualified driver to "dominate" a MT. Can you imagine a Veyron with MT?
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