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      05-19-2007, 06:51 PM   #23
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>
Who does?

If common man has no hope of understanding the Quran, who then shall guard their virtue and lead them to walk the prophet's path into Allah's grace? You? Osama?
You said it yourself, the prophet's path - to be a good muslim is to strive to be like the prophet Muhammed, becuase he was the human implementation of the Quran.

Common man definately can come to understand, but he has to make an effort to. God says if you take a small step towards him, he will guide you, he will open your heart. But not if your goals are political (Osama/terrorist/mass media) or worldly.

And as for me, i dont even know why you would stick me in there. I am a muslim, I worship my creator, I live peacefully, and strive to be a good honest person.

That being said, I am not trying to convert you nor make you believe, nor do I think you should be "killed becuase you do not convert" like this other guy suggests. I believe that you are entitled to your beliefs, as I am to mine.
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      05-20-2007, 01:46 AM   #24
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> You said it yourself, the prophet's path - to be a good muslim is to strive to be like the prophet Muhammed, becuase he was the human implementation of the Quran.

It would have to be 'strive' because I know I can't sleep an entire night on my right side.

Did Muhammed wait until girls where a certain age before making them his wife?

Anyways, you've got the same problem as those christians over there: all you have is a book written by some people and also some other people telling you how to interpret what's written.

If you read the Quran withough professional 'guidance', you may end up coming to wildly different conclusions. Conclusions like Allah wants you to slaughter all christians.

This isn't limited to Islam, it applies to all religions with scripture.
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      05-20-2007, 02:29 AM   #25
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It would have to be 'strive' because I know I can't sleep an entire night on my right side.
To you that may seem crazy - but the prophet shows you the way that is better for you. Sleeping on your right side has health benefits.

Sleeping on the right side is the correct position as the left lung is smaller than the right one and the pressure on the heart would therefore be less, the liver would not be suspended, and the stomach would be on it and so emptying its contents would be quicker.
Sleeping on the right side is one of the best medical interventions to facilitate the excretion of the mucous secretions of the left respiratory bronchioles.

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Did Muhammed wait until girls where a certain age before making them his wife?
You are talking about Fatima, as always is under attack. The marriage was not consumated until she was of age. All that really needs to be said there. There is more to the story, but its long.

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all you have is a book written by some people
No human has written the Quran, it was revealed to the prophet word for word. A book like it can never, and will never be recreated as garanteed by the Quran.

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and also some other people telling you how to interpret what's written.
I try to go by the way of the prophet best I can - and scholars who devoted thier lives in studying the Quran.

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If you read the Quran withough professional 'guidance', you may end up coming to wildly different conclusions. Conclusions like Allah wants you to slaughter all christians.
And that is true, you can twist and bend it to fit your agenda if thats what you want. but you will be off of the truthful path.
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      05-20-2007, 07:24 AM   #26
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> To you that may seem crazy - but the prophet shows you the way that is better for you. Sleeping on your right side has health benefits.

No, it doesn't seem crazy. Only, you would have to make a superhuman effort to sleep on your right side an entire night, and all health benefits would be offset by the continued restriction in blood flow unless you've got, like, a special anti-decubitus matras. (Something which did not exist when Muhammed walked the earth)

Do you know anyone who can do this? Sleep on his right side all night? And still look halfway decent in the morning?

> No human has written the Quran, it was revealed to the prophet word for word.

So... Allah dictated it and Muhammed wrote it down?

That's slightly better than the christian bible, most of that was written 30 or more years after Jesus died, by people who never met the man.

> You are talking about Fatima, as always is under attack. The marriage was not consumated until she was of age.

No, I was referring to Aisha...
I'm not sure what would be considered 'of age' in those days though.

Also, should one strive to marry as many women as Muhammed married?
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      05-20-2007, 09:21 AM   #27
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No, it doesn't seem crazy. Only, you would have to make a superhuman effort to sleep on your right side an entire night,
honestly, its not that hard - I dont understand what needs to "superhuman" about it. Its just like sleeping in any other position. Humans are very habitual, once you start doing something it becomes a habit and you naturally sleep like that. I dont see how the health benefits would be off set, especially how there is less pressure on the heart. And I dont see how you wouldn't look any different than sleeping in any other position.

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So... Allah dictated it and Muhammed wrote it down?


That's slightly better than the christian bible, most of that was written 30 or more years after Jesus died, by people who never met the man.
This is correct, Through the angel Gabriel. The prophet Muhammad was illiterate, had to have it all memorized. It was compiled together and written down. No alternate versions have existed successfully.

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No, I was referring to Aisha...
I'm not sure what would be considered 'of age' in those days though.

Also, should one strive to marry as many women as Muhammed married?
Yes, sorry thats what I meant. It was like 3am when I posted that.
Of Age >= 19
The concept of marrying more than one woman is first off something that is a natural desired in most men, but back in those days it was more than just something someone did for fun. Being married back then provided stabilty and protection for a woman. There were also a lot of widows around, due to the fact the so many of their husbands were killed in the wars. So, some men took on more wives. In Islam, the wife has so much right over the husband - He must provide for her and treat her in the best of ways (unfortunately this isnt the case with a lot of modern day muslims) so it is very hard to take on many wives and it is not the norm. I know I have my hands full with my wife, I could never handle another
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      05-20-2007, 11:02 AM   #28
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> Yes, sorry thats what I meant. It was like 3am when I posted that.
> Of Age >= 19

The version I heard, she was 9 (and he was 51) when he took her in his bed, after 3 years of marriage. She was 19 when the prophet died.

Not that that's a problem per sé, this would be perfectly legal in Iran, provided the girl's parents agree.
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      05-20-2007, 12:20 PM   #29
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> Yes, sorry thats what I meant. It was like 3am when I posted that.
> Of Age >= 19

The version I heard, she was 9 (and he was 51) when he took her in his bed, after 3 years of marriage. She was 19 when the prophet died.

Not that that's a problem per sť, this would be perfectly legal in Iran, provided the girl's parents agree.
This is true, there are cultural norms.. and they are what they are. Aisha was of age (past menstration) and ready for marriage.

The main purpose of her marrying so young and living with the prophet was the amount of knowlege that she gained in that time. She lived for fifty some years after the death of the prophet and spread what she learned of his life. She is the source of many ahadith of the prophet.

My wife and I are the same age, as is the cultural norm of todays more modern societies.
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      05-20-2007, 12:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by psychoactive
we should be at war with islam their religion commands them to kill anyone who is not muslim if they do not convert.

This is not true man. I am a muslim and I can tell you that we are supposed to peacefully spread the message. And let me tell you also that we believe we are all responsible for the health of our neighbour etc. If our neighbour is hungry while our stomachs are full then that is taken note of, even if our neighbour is a jew.

But really, Islam means peace, thats why I hate when people say "Islamic terrorist", its a bit of an oxymoron - peaceful terrorist. I see the problem in the world, there are extreme muslims which give us a bad name, but people must understand that people like Bush and Blair are also terrorists. I know a lot of people are going to disagree with it but oh well....
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      05-20-2007, 12:40 PM   #31
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From the beginning, the Prophet Muhammed was persecuted, he never wanted to fight. Especially in the early wars he was involved in, the odds were rediculous - like 10,000 muslims v. 100,000 arab troops. They took his wealth, expelled him from his home, and then sent armies to erradicate him.

The teachings of Islam are to fight only when you have to defend your homes, family, or religion.

Go back to the crusades, when the muslims would take a region over, all other religions were allowed to keep thier religion, when the christians took over a region, it was 'convert or die' there was massive bloodshed. Historically, even Jews living under the Islamic caliphate admitted that they were sheltered and protected from persecution.

Dont be fooled, religions are just fronts these days... The underlying reason for all the bloodshed is politics, wealth, and worldly possesions. Everything that true Islam is against.

nice post brother, I feel these are difficult times, noone really is interested in Islam or the teachings of our holy prophet. I mean they actually think they know him, but they really dont, people make crazy cartoons of him when they dont even know him! and the funny thing is these people are the worst people because they hate something they do not even fully understand. If you wont take the time to understand the teachings of our religion, then why abuse it? I know it sounds harsh but it really hurts when most people dont understand Islam, but they condemn it's teachings and our holy prophet...
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      05-20-2007, 12:56 PM   #32
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> people like Bush and Blair are also terrorists. I know a lot of people are going to disagree with it

Well, they are not terrorists, they are tyrants: They steal from the poor, sell to the rich and make law to strip people of their (god-given) rights.

That's something different from running into a crowded shopping mall with a semtex anorak and shouting some religious or political phrase while yanking the detonator.
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      05-20-2007, 12:59 PM   #33
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nice post brother, I feel these are difficult times, noone really is interested in Islam or the teachings of our holy prophet. I mean they actually think they know him, but they really dont, people make crazy cartoons of him when they dont even know him! and the funny thing is these people are the worst people because they hate something they do not even fully understand. If you wont take the time to understand the teachings of our religion, then why abuse it? I know it sounds harsh but it really hurts when most people dont understand Islam, but they condemn it's teachings and our holy prophet...
Its a human nature to attack something you dislike or dont understand. Its been happening to Islam since the beginning. People used to do the worst things to the prophet (peace be upon him) while he was still alive. People used to hit him, cuss him out, slander him, he had a neighbor who would throw trash on his lawn every day just becuase he disliked him.. and when that neighbor got sick, the prophet still went to visit him and wish him will - true muslim. So, I didn't really get worked up about some of those cartoons or anything.. its nothing new really.

Good to meet you brohter, NICE SIG
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      05-20-2007, 12:59 PM   #34
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This is true, there are cultural norms.. and they are what they are. Aisha was of age (past menstration) and ready for marriage.

The main purpose of her marrying so young and living with the prophet was the amount of knowlege that she gained in that time. She lived for fifty some years after the death of the prophet and spread what she learned of his life. She is the source of many ahadith of the prophet.

My wife and I are the same age, as is the cultural norm of todays more modern societies.
nice post, I know what people must think, they must think it's disgusting but our holy prophet had 4 wives and he treated them equally! and at the time it was a very normal thing, as men married more than one woman so that he could support her financially etc...
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      05-20-2007, 01:03 PM   #35
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>
Well, they are not terrorists, they are tyrants: They steal from the poor, sell to the rich and make law to strip people of their (god-given) rights.
Thats right.. thats called opression. People do not respond well to being opressed, they do rash and illogical things.
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      05-20-2007, 01:08 PM   #36
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nice post, I know what people must think, they must think it's disgusting but our holy prophet had 4 wives and he treated them equally! and at the time it was a very normal thing, as men married more than one woman so that he could support her financially etc...
Hi HKS786, i have always wanted to ask if you are a muslim due to your 786 suffix after HKS. Now i know.
Thats a mighty nice ferrari you have there sahib.
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      05-20-2007, 01:19 PM   #37
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> I know what people must think

Don't presume to know what I think.

> our holy prophet had 4 wives and he treated them equally! and at the time it was a very normal thing, as men married more than one woman so that he could support her financially etc...

So you should strive to be like the prophet, but it's OK if you don't do that for some things? Isn't that making up your own religion?

It's good if a religion can keep up with the times... But I've come across really silly stuff over the years - girls asking how to hang the washing like the prophet or some guy asking how to wash a car like the prophet. Or how to install car ice like the prophet.

If your religion is to live as the prophet, then you either commit fully to that, or risk your hesitation casting you into darkness.

Say, do you know if there will be only one prophet for all times, or is it possible there may yet be another?
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      05-20-2007, 01:26 PM   #38
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> It's good if a religion can keep up with the times...
Max, what do u mean if its good if a religion can keep up with times? If its what i think it is, then what value is there in a religion if it is to be based on the present. We have faith in our religion for what value it has held over the years and how people have come to understand the religion. By stating that if a religion can keep up with times, it renders everything that the religion ever held in history invalid. Remeber that the study of history is used to understand the present. Perhaps you mean about cultural 'practices' of any given religion? A religion based on todays society would have far more dire consequences than good. More conflicts, more wars, more racism, everything. Add all up and chain reaction is what you will have. As it is, the present is still an uncontrollable environment. I shudder to think what will ever transpire if what you say is a valid point on any religion can keep up with times. And a religion that can keep up with times, would to me, only have semi-freethinkers as it's followers.

Cheers!
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      05-20-2007, 01:31 PM   #39
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> I know what people must think

Don't presume to know what I think.
No one did that, I think he was talking about people in general - and im just trying to answer some questions you have had to the best of my ability.

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So you should strive to be like the prophet, but it's OK if you don't do that for some things? Isn't that making up your own religion?

It's good if a religion can keep up with the times... But I've come across really silly stuff over the years - girls asking how to hang the washing like the prophet or some guy asking how to wash a car like the prophet. Or how to install car ice like the prophet.
As a muslim, you should strive to be like the prophet Muhammad, because he shows you the way to be a good muslim. There are two forms of Sunnah (the way of the prophet) the exterior sunnah, how he dressed, acted, and peformed tasks and duties, and the inner sunnah, the way he believed without doubt, the way he revered and worshiped the creator of all things.

As a muslim, you will never be exactly like the prophet. Especially in the inner sunnah. The prophet used to fast all day, eat a few dates and then continue fasting. A normal person can not do this, they will hurt their health. The prophet had that level of belief and was able to do it. The rule I would say is this , try your best - everyone is at a different level. Muslims try to do things as he did becuase they are PROUD to be affliated with him in anyway. There is no harm in not being able to do something that is Sunnah the exact way. Sunnah also, by definition means 'extra' the required things in Islam are cleared defined (belief, daily prayers, fast ramadan, etc..) those are things that you must do.

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Say, do you know if there will be only one prophet for all times, or is it possible there may yet be another?
There have been many prophets sent to all kinds of people, starting what Adam and then there are the more prominent ones such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Noah, and Muhammed. Who is believed by Muslims to be the last of the prophets. He was the last warner before the end of time.
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      05-20-2007, 01:36 PM   #40
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> then what value is there in a religion if it is to be based on the present.

The past was once the present!

> By stating that if a religion can keep up with times, it renders everything that the religion ever held in history invalid.

No, the real question is wether newly gained insights invalidate the whole religion. And more pointedly, if fear of invalidation causes people not to pursue truth, knowledge and insight?
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      05-20-2007, 01:39 PM   #41
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>
No, the real question is wether newly gained insights invalidate the whole religion. And more pointedly, if fear of invalidation causes people not to pursue truth, knowledge and insight?
Not from what I have seen personally. Advances in society, technology, and science have proven and shed more light on the Quran and the sayings of the prophet. If anything they have strenghtened my belief.
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      05-20-2007, 02:05 PM   #42
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> people like Bush and Blair are also terrorists. I know a lot of people are going to disagree with it

Well, they are not terrorists, they are tyrants: They steal from the poor, sell to the rich and make law to strip people of their (god-given) rights.

That's something different from running into a crowded shopping mall with a semtex anorak and shouting some religious or political phrase while yanking the detonator.
No they are definately terrorists. a lot of people will not agree, but think of Iraq, look how many people are dying everyday because of Bush and Blair, I mean it has even been proven that companies in America AND Britain have benifetted from oil etc. Bush and Blair act like they care, look how many kids die everyday in Iraq, can they even name them? no way. And what about the innocent men woman and children die because of poverty everyday. I dont see Bush and Blair losing sleep over that. Maybe because there's no benefit for them...
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      05-20-2007, 02:07 PM   #43
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Hi HKS786, i have always wanted to ask if you are a muslim due to your 786 suffix after HKS. Now i know.
Thats a mighty nice ferrari you have there sahib.
lol yeah, I am muslim oh thats not my ferrari, but shh dont tell anyone
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      05-20-2007, 02:45 PM   #44
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Not from what I have seen personally. Advances in society, technology, and science have proven and shed more light on the Quran and the sayings of the prophet. If anything they have strenghtened my belief.
Yes I totally agree, did you know that our holy prophet explained that honey for example is a cure for many things. However, recently people are just finding this out. One really old man had poison in his leg, he stays somewhere near here. He had to have his amputated but someone told him to apply honey to the areas suffering from the poison. Miraculously, his leg returned to normal and he did not need it to be amputated....This is just one example of how our holy prophet teaches us....
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