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      05-18-2007, 04:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadE View Post
I was agreeing with you till that. I wouldnt go that far, I dont think you should ever be able to accept that regardless of the circumstances. The only thing culture and religion does is justifies there actions, it dont make them right by any means just gives a reason.
well cultural/religious laws are somewhat different from each other... i believe cultural laws are more dynamic and religious laws are more static... which means if your bound to religious laws, those laws will have been "conventional" for a while...

im not bound to religious laws at all, so i would not understand the commitment or the principles behind murdering a young woman; however, those commited to something beyond themselves would be willing to do so... and plus whats right and wrong to them is all relative...

western cultures are more individualistic whereas the eastern cultures are more collective... we believe in individuality and free will whereas those cultures believe that whats best for society is based on what society says/family/in this case the town...
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      05-18-2007, 04:35 PM   #24
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man I didnt look at the article or watched the video because I dont wanna see shit like that. Just the thread's title is enough. What a sick world we live in now.

I would also like to offer my opinion on their religious beliefs. It's just wrong to kill others regardless of your religion. I dont think ANY GOD would want his/her believers to take away innocent lives. If God created life and then let it be Him that take away life and no one else.

Sometimes it makes me wonder whether their religion was somehow altered in such ways that have allowed them to think that murder is okay. Ancient cultures such as the Mayans played games and the winner was beheaded and that was considered to be an honor. If that's what they believed in then good for them. HOWEVER, when other cultures sacrafice unwillingly people in order to please their "gods" is just plain wrong.
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      05-18-2007, 05:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just4kickz View Post
so it was wrong for the aztecs/incas to sacrafice people to appease the gods?

how can you even say civilization requires moral absolutes... MANKIND IS IMMORAL... civilization is a facade... MANKIND IS NOT CIVIL. mankind has never been pure and never will be... and all you can really do at this point is say oh what a shame they live in a backwards world"... lmao

only reason i seem on the other side is because theres no point in agreeing with you guys... i def think this is wrong but i would also accept it if it was part of their religious/cultural laws...
Yes it was wrong to sacrifice other human beings and if you cannot see that I have nothing further to say.

The reason you ARE on the other side is because you find this behavior in any way acceptable. Man is not perfect but that does not make our flaws acceptable. Society and civilization exist because we can and must draw the line on acceptable behavior.

All societies and cultures are NOT equal. Some are superior to others and arguing otherwise simply extends the life of those that need to be changed.
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      05-18-2007, 05:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Yes it was wrong to sacrifice other human beings and if you cannot see that I have nothing further to say.

The reason you ARE on the other side is because you find this behavior in any way acceptable. Man is not perfect but that does not make our flaws acceptable. Society and civilization exist because we can and must draw the line on acceptable behavior.

All societies and cultures are NOT equal. Some are superior to others and arguing otherwise simply extends the life of those that need to be changed.
lol... the reason why I believe it is okay is because I have an open mind...I dont follow the road... I follow MY own path.

lol the superiority thing is just the ingroup/outgroup bias...

"Yes it was wrong to sacrifice other human beings and if you cannot see that I have nothing further to say." lol... if you were christian and you were forced to fight in a crusade with the possibility of you dying that would be the same thing as sacrafice...

& for the record... if the story was framed in a different light saying how appropriate the murder was... i would say it was wrong... i don't think you can judge me because i could argue both ways.
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      05-18-2007, 05:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Yes it was wrong to sacrifice other human beings and if you cannot see that I have nothing further to say.

The reason you ARE on the other side is because you find this behavior in any way acceptable. Man is not perfect but that does not make our flaws acceptable. Society and civilization exist because we can and must draw the line on acceptable behavior.

All societies and cultures are NOT equal. Some are superior to others and arguing otherwise simply extends the life of those that need to be changed.
geneil... just out of curiosity... do you consider yourself a cultured person? as in have you've been around people of very different life styles... this has nothing to do with the argument but i'm trying to see why your so highly opiniated...

most if not all of my friends are asian... within my realm i'd say about 1/2 are indian and middle eastern and the other half are purely pacific islander (japanese, chinese, taiwanese, etc)... i have only a few white friends. i went to a primarily half white half asian private school... the people there are very culturally diverse...

my friends have sisters, cousins, or family members that have been in arranged marriages and disobeying the family heads would result in similar consequences... all i can say is... well sucks for them but its not my place to say if its right or wrong.

if you were to tell them that their culture is wrong... it would be almost like a communist gov't telling americans that we're wrong because we're so damn capitalistic and greedy. whos right? who's wrong... i bet you have an opinion on that as well.
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      05-18-2007, 05:34 PM   #28
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Spechless! Dont know what should I say! That is horrible!
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      05-18-2007, 07:34 PM   #29
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There's a lot of confused ppl out there, but those ppl are F%CKED UP. F%CKED UP family too, I'd break everyone of those guys neck if they even think about touching my little baby.
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      05-18-2007, 08:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmaash View Post
Peace upon you brother,

I was very sad.. saw the article yesterday. Ruined my whole day.. not that my day is something significant in this scope, but it saddens me to see stuff like that. Even now Im sad to see it. I am muslim as well, she wasn't doing anything wrong. Humanity has transgressed, God help us.
Gods gift to mankind and everyone being unique, and for this girl, young and pretty, to go through this, is simply wrong. Modern societies has brought law and justice to people. How can this be an act of justice and humiliation to one who has fall in love? I just guess all of us have to be grateful the place we come from, have in all sense, civil and morally sound people. I wish i could helped or do somethingfor that poor girl, like a donation on something but thats not gonna change or improve things. Its just the way this world is being sold out to the devil himself.
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      05-19-2007, 01:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by elmariachi View Post
this world is being sold out to the devil himself.
youre right about that brother, Its like Pacino said in The Devil's Advocate, speaking as the devil:

"Who, in their right mind, Kevin, could possibly deny the 20th century was entirely mine?"
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      05-19-2007, 02:29 PM   #32
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> God save us from ourselves!!!!!

Praying doesn't appear to work. Perhaps we can make a really large crop circle to draw his attention to stuff like this, and interpret his silence as his blessing to go over there and kill even more people in his name.
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      05-19-2007, 02:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just4kickz View Post
geneil... just out of curiosity... do you consider yourself a cultured person? as in have you've been around people of very different life styles... this has nothing to do with the argument but i'm trying to see why your so highly opiniated...

most if not all of my friends are asian... within my realm i'd say about 1/2 are indian and middle eastern and the other half are purely pacific islander (japanese, chinese, taiwanese, etc)... i have only a few white friends. i went to a primarily half white half asian private school... the people there are very culturally diverse...

my friends have sisters, cousins, or family members that have been in arranged marriages and disobeying the family heads would result in similar consequences... all i can say is... well sucks for them but its not my place to say if its right or wrong.

if you were to tell them that their culture is wrong... it would be almost like a communist gov't telling americans that we're wrong because we're so damn capitalistic and greedy. whos right? who's wrong... i bet you have an opinion on that as well.

The thing with this is that even your friends' sisters, cousins, etc. dont want to be set up. Whether they've assimilated or not doesnt matter. They dont want anyone to dictate their lives but they have no choice because it's either arranged marriages or death.

This means that while the older generation still believes that arranged marriages are okay, the new generation want to choose their own paths. IMO it's ridiculous how some cultures are like that. Im not saying my (or our) culture is the best (ethnocentrism doesnt exist with me) but I believe that everyone is entitled to making their own decisions.
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      05-19-2007, 05:27 PM   #34
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The thing with this is that even your friends' sisters, cousins, etc. dont want to be set up. Whether they've assimilated or not doesnt matter. They dont want anyone to dictate their lives but they have no choice because it's either arranged marriages or death.

This means that while the older generation still believes that arranged marriages are okay, the new generation want to choose their own paths. IMO it's ridiculous how some cultures are like that. Im not saying my (or our) culture is the best (ethnocentrism doesnt exist with me) but I believe that everyone is entitled to making their own decisions.
well that goes back to the ingroup and outgroup bias... western civilization bases around individualism whereas eastern civilizations bases around community... one person's actions translates to the reputation of a community.

we dont understand their culture and yet we judge them... western civilization isnt so different... it is still a facade for many things wrong.

& to the argument that if god created man, god should be the one to punish man... i gotta laugh at that... im thinking prisons, court, death sentences--that is not god's work, that is man's work...goin dummy.
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      05-19-2007, 06:01 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just4kickz View Post
well that goes back to the ingroup and outgroup bias... western civilization bases around individualism whereas eastern civilizations bases around community... one person's actions translates to the reputation of a community..
We're not judging them based on just one person. Arranged marriages are common in those cultures but to make people choose between that and death is just wrong. Also, when the girl was stoned to death there were MANY people watching and a bunch of others that threw the stones. If she was stoned to death by just one person and nobody else watched we would say "wow that's very unfortunate. He should be punished". In this case it's just WRONG. Come on now, an innocent girl is being killed and others just stood around and watched??? that's pathetic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by just4kickz
we dont understand their culture and yet we judge them... western civilization isnt so different... it is still a facade for many things wrong..
Actually we do understand their cultures. That's what allows us to judge them. Think about it- those people are so consumed in their religion/culture because they've never been outside of that protected bubble. Once a person leaves that culture/religion and travel to a different religion, they will realize just how suffocating the bubble was. I must clarify that I am not claiming that we understand EVERYTHING in their culture, only an overview of it. You cant never judge anything without at least comprehending it somewhat.

It's like watching a 2 minute review of a 24 episode. While we wont know all the details, we would still know what's happened and the critical events in the show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by just4kickz
& to the argument that if god created man, god should be the one to punish man... i gotta laugh at that... im thinking prisons, court, death sentences--that is not god's work, that is man's work...goin dummy.

We're not talking about punishments for committed crimes. We are talking about an INNOCENT girl being stoned to death for falling in love. While it might be man's work when punishing crimminals, killing an innocent person should not be man's decision.

One last thought- how do you know that there isnt someone out there controlling man?? Perhaps everything really does happen for a reason.
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      05-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #36
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okay so you keep labeling her as innocent... if the law was that it was illegal to marry a Sunni boy (whether it was written law or not)... and if she did fall in love with him... would it justify in some punishment? maybe death is harsh but rules are rules...

i dont believe in a higher being... i just believe in karma... a good amount of good and a good amount of bad happen. that is the control... what is good and what is bad is relative... not getting rained on is good--although it may be good at a small level, it is good nonetheless... accidentally falling off your bike is bad... although its hardly bad in the general scheme of things, it is bad nonetheless.

whatever, im done with this... it was good to know how you guys all feel though... i mean it is the typical american stereotype to think of other cultures as unsophisticated... but imo i would rather accept a culture and let it evolve on its own than blatantly say NO THATS WRONG when I am an outsider who knows barely anything about who they are. i could easily say christianity is wrong... but why bother... i'd have a few thousand crusaders at my door.
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      05-20-2007, 01:25 AM   #37
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Since something like half of all marriages end in divorce, it looks like our way isn't that much better.
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      05-20-2007, 03:31 AM   #38
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so this is completely legal to do in that country? no judge, no trial? just a bunch of egoistic psychos get to decide when to stone someone to death IN FUCKING PUBLIC???

i'm speechless...
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      05-20-2007, 04:45 AM   #39
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Barbaric, backwards, retarded. We are supposed to develop culture as we progress through the ages - someone forgot to tell those people that. Reminds me of a video I saw a while ago when some villagers somewhere burnt a man to death - no trial etc. A sad world. They clearly believe its OK and normal to stone people to death for their thoughts and beliefs. Falling in love cannot be helped. My thoughts to her lover and family.
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      05-20-2007, 07:26 AM   #40
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> egoistic psychos get to decide when to stone someone to death IN FUCKING PUBLIC???

Isn't the utterly barbaric death penalty still enforced in some US states?

> Barbaric, backwards, retarded.

Yes, my point.

> no trial etc. A sad world.

You'd better have a loads of cash if you want anywhere near a fair trial in the US. Sad world indeed.
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      05-20-2007, 10:51 PM   #41
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This is such SHIT! Man taking matters such as ones life into there own hands on city streets acting as if this is what there GOD would have done. It is completely barbaric and WRONG. Why not let them live there life and let there GOD deal with the problem after there time has been spent here? I feel sorry for anyone who must live in this sort of fear and forced into living a life that would be a lie to appease there GOD.
Perhaps she is at peace now, no longer living in this fear, and I am sure those there will get there justice when the time comes.


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      05-21-2007, 12:22 PM   #42
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Even a retard will say that, death penalty is justified if the act of crime is murder/killing someone.

death penalty for loving someone??? shows how immature the state of mind is and how unwilling to change that fucktard thinking.

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      05-21-2007, 06:23 PM   #43
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This is Speedgod's wife...I enjoyed the comment on one of the post about moral relativism posted earlier. Unfortunately, just4kicks is somewhat misinformed about how society has been formed throughout history. Most people with a lack of self worth, or narcisistic tendencies (again based on outward perceived value of themselves from others and not internal locus) have preyed on the weak, powerless (not to be confused with weak) the stupid and the corruptable- to gain power and influence.

Influence is perceived by people on both ends of the pyramid as power. And it is often power we GIVE others over us as we follow blindly without question.

Many brutal, ignorant people have created "laws" to subjugate those that they see as "less" than they. By beating another person down by word, law, or force (usually using a threat - through direct inhilation or slowly as in repressed cultures and indigent communities -on their life as the leverage and reason for complicance) makes them feel they are "right" in the sense that if others are willing to obey them out of fear, and lackies agree with them because of power by association - then they MUST be right in their actions, right?
Civilizations are like pyramids, usually the ignorant and vapid are at the top, gaining their power hereditarilly or through any number of methods...but the underlying current in ANY culture trying to kill others because of their religion is based on fear. Hitler feared other races, because of the fear of losing his own culture through a domestic "melting pot". Just as in MANY -I'd say ALL cultures, men fear their own insecurities and self-created deluisions of inadequacy and project their own self anger on women. Because women will suffer death and dismemberment to protect their children, men think they are justified in treating women so digustingly. That is how a few rule the many. A few of the blindsided weak minded individuals promote their ideas to those of weaker minds and create a folllowing. That is how religion in general was created. Don't think so, look at your religions origins. In todays world, if you have voices talking to you, you are medicated or locked away for your own good.

There will be no peace in any country until men of different cultures value themselves not out of fear of inadequacy and trying to prove others LESS worthy of being. And this will NEVER happen until women are praised, respected, revered, and seen as a treasure worth more than gold, and treated with the same freedoms and rights as men would give themselves.

When they value themselves, they will not try to own others. That is true respect. Violating or hurting a child is the only true Universal law not to be broken. Murding and victimizing the powerless is of the same moral order. We are not animals set out on the plain to hunt mice for food. We have the mental capacity to grow food, to kill humanely. To be of a higher mental order. Unfortunately, there are many many sheep that the wolves prey on, and then incidents like this poor child's murder happen.
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      05-21-2007, 06:35 PM   #44
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Its really disturbing to see that video. Coming from a muslim person, i am totally disgusted. Islam does not condone to such doings. Its the culture and backward way of punishing ppl who fall in love in love in the yesteryears of the arabic countries. It may have been abolished but i guess its still dominant in small villages and states. Nevertheless, these ppl should be shot at gunpoint. That is no way to treat a human life. In all faith, this world has become a place that even man have no control over. Its a malignant disease and the chain reaction cannot be stopped. I cant imagine how it can even take 100 of ppl to do this and make it public. its just barbaric. Put it this way, the yezidi religion as what they say is basically like Nazism. A self proclaimed religion using a true and defined religion as a direction. BS is what it is.
well said bro, I totally agree with you...
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