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      11-26-2005, 03:35 PM   #1
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How come mercedes-benz is so far ahead of bmw?

This is one thing that i never really understood.

Benz easily mass produces silky smooth cars like the CL55 and 65 which have over 500 horses and over 520 torque and over 700 torque on the 65 model and all of that coming from supercharged V8s.

With bmw, the best they can do with a V10 is a little over 500hp and torque numbers in the 300s.

Not only that, but despite the benzes weighing tons more than any bmws in production, they accelerate FAR FAR quicker than anything bmw can throw out...and all of that from what are called the best standard 7 speed automatic trannys in the world.

MB makes extensive use of varying suspensions on their cars. Unlike bmw which only tailors stiff sporty suspensions in any kind of driving, the benzes drive like lexuses on strait roads, but when twisties come up, the suspensions stiffen themselves and do not permit any body roll. Thus, the car handles almost as well as a sports car. In fact, if anyone has ever had any experience with these cars, they would know that all benzes handle like they weigh over 1000 pounds lighter.

Point is...how come BMW doesnt analyze their competition and take tricks they use and incorporate them into their own cars? I think if bmw utilized the best things from all of their competitors, they would be completely untouchable in this business.
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      11-26-2005, 03:39 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
This is one thing that i never really understood.

Benz easily mass produces silky smooth cars like the CL55 and 65 which have over 500 horses and over 520 torque and over 700 torque on the 65 model and all of that coming from supercharged V8s.

With bmw, the best they can do with a V10 is a little over 500hp and torque numbers in the 300s.

Not only that, but despite the benzes weighing tons more than any bmws in production, they accelerate FAR FAR quicker than anything bmw can throw out...and all of that from what are called the best standard 7 speed automatic trannys in the world.

MB makes extensive use of varying suspensions on their cars. Unlike bmw which only tailors stiff sporty suspensions in any kind of driving, the benzes drive like lexuses on strait roads, but when twisties come up, the suspensions stiffen themselves and do not permit any body roll. Thus, the car handles almost as well as a sports car. In fact, if anyone has ever had any experience with these cars, they would know that all benzes handle like they weigh over 1000 pounds lighter.

Point is...how come BMW doesnt analyze their competition and take tricks they use and incorporate them into their own cars? I think if bmw utilized the best things from all of their competitors, they would be completely untouchable in this business.
The answer to more torque from MB is called forced induction. The answer to how they produce such vehicles is maybe found in the fact the Mercedes are MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than BMWs.

I think its hilarious that you think MB's outperform BMWs when everybody who wants a great performance car looks to BMW and Porsche long before the old man's Benz. Case in point, the E46 M3 easily matched the C-class AMG models and it definately outperfomed the same models when it came to the track.

And if you are so bright, why don't you explain to me why JD Power indicated that MB is well below industry average in 3-year reliability and why they were shown to be 14th from the bottom in the same category? Meanwhile, BMW was tied with Honda and Acura in this category and well above industry average.

In any case, there is more to cars than perfomance... BMW just has a fire to it that only Porsche and Ferrari can match. It shows in the demographics... the average age of BMW owners is 44.... the average age of Porsche owners is 42... the average age of MB owners is 57... and the average of BUICK owners is 58. I guess you might as well go and feather the throttle in your MB on the way to 4:00pm early bird special dinners.

Why don't you go smoke some more drugs.
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      11-26-2005, 03:41 PM   #3
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Well regardless, MB needs to develop a nice manual tranny before I can appreciate their performance.
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      11-26-2005, 03:49 PM   #4
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What I find so terribly amusing that the man who claims MB has everything right bought a BMW.

And Nikki, I love the new sig picture.
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      11-26-2005, 04:07 PM   #5
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mercedes benz make wonderful cars, no mistaking that. my wife drives a c180k and it is terrific.

spitfire, have you considered that although mb & bmw are fierce rivals, most of mbs cars are less powerful than their bmw equivalents.

another point to note is that although both rivals analyse each others cars to the tiniest screw, ultimately bmw build cars one way and mb build them their way.

many petrol mbs are supercharged while bmw do not use supercharges in their cars and for the most part have better power and torque figures than mb. also it is seemingly evident that bmw understate certain performance figures as well. i do not know about mb.

mb build v6s while bmw are the straight 6 champion of the world.

when you go head to head in a medium term comparison between the bmw and mb high performance sports cars can we really see what the answers to your questions are like.

quoting figures is one thing and mb do quote very large figures but in the past, bmw m series cars have outperformed their amg rivals in many a car magazine comparison.

personally speaking i believe this trend will continue with the new m5 and m6.

do not misunderstand me, mb build top high performance cars as well. it is up to the individual to decide which one they like better based on whatever method they choose but deciding on some figures alone is not the answer.

all the best.
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      11-26-2005, 04:09 PM   #6
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MBs don't outhandle Bimmers in lane-change tests... Yes they use pneumatic suspensions but overall they always are too cushy for real sport driving, so please SpitFire5000 release to us all contact information to your pusher because he seems to offer excellent stuff.
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      11-26-2005, 04:20 PM   #7
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Now now, that sounds like a legitimate thread, unlike all those photoshop pics that seem useless to mandate. Epiphone states the logic quite staight and reasonable. BMRAMA gets to the point.

I've always thought that Mercedes Benz went for the more luxury side and BMWs were more into the sporty side. You should try revving your 3.0 inline six, it's music to your ears, something superchargers can't imitate. There are many other aspects to the BMW that make it a winning choice over the competition, but this should do for now.
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      11-26-2005, 04:54 PM   #8
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I think spitfire6000 asked some legitimate questions, expressed qenuine curiosity, and made some understandable assumptions. It is a post quite worty of engaging debate - but I don't see any need for personal attack. If you want this forum to become more and more of what it is already becoming - BMW owners patting themselves on the back and showing off their lastet speeding ticket, fine. But I personally enjoy some occasional debate.

Mercedes Benz makes fantasitc cars. BMW makes fantasic cars. Both have a slightly different target market, albeit with some crossover (7 series vs. S class for example). I owned a MB in 2002 and it was a great car. I like my E90 better, but not really because of anything that was 'bad' about the merc. Who here would not love to slip behind the wheel of an SL500 AMG and take a few curves?

Just because spitfire6000 bought a BMW doesn't mean he (or all of us) can't appreciate other fine automobiles or ask some interesting questions.
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      11-26-2005, 04:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3
The answer to more torque from MB is called forced induction. The answer to how they produce such vehicles is maybe found in the fact the Mercedes are MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE than BMWs.

I think its hilarious that you think MB's outperform BMWs when everybody who wants a great performance car looks to BMW and Porsche long before the old man's Benz. Case in point, the E46 M3 easily matched the C-class AMG models and it definately outperfomed the same models when it came to the track.

And if you are so bright, why don't you explain to me why JD Power indicated that MB is well below industry average in 3-year reliability and why they were shown to be 14th from the bottom in the same category? Meanwhile, BMW was tied with Honda and Acura in this category and well above industry average.

In any case, there is more to cars than perfomance... BMW just has a fire to it that only Porsche and Ferrari can match. It shows in the demographics... the average age of BMW owners is 44.... the average age of Porsche owners is 42... the average age of MB owners is 57... and the average of BUICK owners is 58. I guess you might as well go and feather the throttle in your MB on the way to 4:00pm early bird special dinners.

Why don't you go smoke some more drugs.
hmm maybe i should have posted this thread on the 6 or 5 series forums rather than the 3 series. I am talking about the more upscale benzes...not the C class.

It does not appear to me that you guys have ever driven or owned any of the mb cars im talking about and are not used to the kind of calibur of car that im talking about. I drive a e90 just like all of u guys, but several of my family members who are actually in their 30s do own CLs and SLs.

Now lets get down to your post...you said that mbs are much more expensive than BMW, which is complete bullsh!t. An S class costs as much as a 7 series and a E55 costs as much as an M5.

And whats this you say about old mans benz? I am under 25 and believe me noone i have ever met thinks an E55 is an old mans car. If anything mercedes is one of the most respectable and prestigious car makers in the world. They have far better reliability than porsche. Whats these JD power numbers youre throwing out? They are completely meaningless. My rents had leased a 2003 E class and throughout the entire lease did not have a single rattle or problem with the car. Thats more than i can say about their X5 which has tons of rattles around the car and even my new E90 already has rattles in the back. That being said...why all this talk about reliability? Obviously if you are going to get yourself a car thats over 60,000 you have money in your pocket.

Yes the M3 outperforms the C class amg models...only problem is that a C class is a sedan. If you are looking for m3 comparison look at the CLK...which has over 80 more horses and over 100 more torque than the m3.

Whats with your idea that mercedes is for old people? maybe lexus yea....but benz? thats the most rediculous thing ive ever heard. Maybe you think that because youre not used to seeing young people with money. Hell...a 19 year old girl that lives around the block from me drives a CLS500.

Yes you are right bmws have their own style and "fire" which is why i am a bmw owner. Only problem is....this thread has nothing to do with any of that so i have no clue why you are trying sooo hard to defend bmw.

BTW: wats with all this flaming and talk of drugs? i was under the impression that this was a mature board community.
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      11-26-2005, 05:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David325Australia
mercedes benz make wonderful cars, no mistaking that. my wife drives a c180k and it is terrific.

spitfire, have you considered that although mb & bmw are fierce rivals, most of mbs cars are less powerful than their bmw equivalents.

another point to note is that although both rivals analyse each others cars to the tiniest screw, ultimately bmw build cars one way and mb build them their way.

many petrol mbs are supercharged while bmw do not use supercharges in their cars and for the most part have better power and torque figures than mb. also it is seemingly evident that bmw understate certain performance figures as well. i do not know about mb.

mb build v6s while bmw are the straight 6 champion of the world.

when you go head to head in a medium term comparison between the bmw and mb high performance sports cars can we really see what the answers to your questions are like.

quoting figures is one thing and mb do quote very large figures but in the past, bmw m series cars have outperformed their amg rivals in many a car magazine comparison.

personally speaking i believe this trend will continue with the new m5 and m6.

do not misunderstand me, mb build top high performance cars as well. it is up to the individual to decide which one they like better based on whatever method they choose but deciding on some figures alone is not the answer.

all the best.
most of mbs cars are less powerful than their bmw equivalents? not true whatsoever. In fact...bmw is BEHIND in every single model in terms of horsepower and torque. The bmws inline 6 in the 330i is inferior to the benz's 3.5liter V6. The engine in the 550i and 750 that produces 360s on both scales, is inferior to benz's new engine coming out in the new S class that pushes 380-90 horses and even more torque.

MB just like bmw does not exxagerate their power numbers...and this is very evident when looking at acceleration times of 0-60. Take the E55 for example...it weighs over a ton more than the M3...yet it accelerates to 60 .2 seconds faster than the m3 (4.4 vs 4.6m3).

Whats even more astonishing is that all MBs come with automatics...and yet can still hit such exotic acceleration numbers. In BMWs case...all automatics accelerate at least a quarter second slower than their manual counterparts.

The reason car mags choose bmw for performance is because it outperforms mb on the TRACK. Now, 99% of people who own bmws never ever take their cars to the track. So whats the use of that?

BMW does give u something mb doesnt...and thats a feeling of connection to the road. MB conversely takes this away to keep u isloated from the outside world. This is all a matter of preference though.
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      11-26-2005, 05:14 PM   #11
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You, being a BMW owner yourself, should know that straightline figures don't equate to better overall performance. I think the way you titled this thread had to do with some of the negative attitude. However, I agree that the drug comment was out of line.

About your statement: "all benzes handle like they weigh over 1000 pounds lighter."

No. They don't.

When was the last time you heard someone say, "This car handles almost beautifully as a Mercedes-Benz"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
hmm maybe i should have posted this thread on the 6 or 5 series forums rather than the 3 series. I am talking about the more upscale benzes...not the C class.

It does not appear to me that you guys have ever driven or owned any of the mb cars im talking about and are not used to the kind of calibur of car that im talking about. I drive a e90 just like all of u guys, but several of my family members who are actually in their 30s do own CLs and SLs.

Now lets get down to your post...you said that mbs are much more expensive than BMW, which is complete bullsh!t. An S class costs as much as a 7 series and a E55 costs as much as an M5.


And whats this you say about old mans benz? I am under 25 and believe me noone i have ever met thinks an E55 is an old mans car. If anything mercedes is one of the most respectable and prestigious car makers in the world. They have far better reliability than porsche. Whats these JD power numbers youre throwing out? They are completely meaningless. My rents had leased a 2003 E class and throughout the entire lease did not have a single rattle or problem with the car. Thats more than i can say about their X5 which has tons of rattles around the car and even my new E90 already has rattles in the back. That being said...why all this talk about reliability? Obviously if you are going to get yourself a car thats over 60,000 you have money in your pocket.

Yes the M3 outperforms the C class amg models...only problem is that a C class is a sedan. If you are looking for m3 comparison look at the CLK...which has over 80 more horses and over 100 more torque than the m3.

Whats with your idea that mercedes is for old people? maybe lexus yea....but benz? thats the most rediculous thing ive ever heard. Maybe you think that because youre not used to seeing young people with money. Hell...a 19 year old girl that lives around the block from me drives a CLS500.

Yes you are right bmws have their own style and "fire" which is why i am a bmw owner. Only problem is....this thread has nothing to do with any of that so i have no clue why you are trying sooo hard to defend bmw.

BTW: wats with all this flaming and talk of drugs? i was under the impression that this was a mature board community.
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      11-26-2005, 05:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimshimhada
I think the way you titled this thread had to do with some of the negative attitude. However, I agree that the drug comment was out of line.
Wow...are people around here so insecure about their purchase of a bmw that they get so offended when a fellow owner brings up a debate about a different car?
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      11-26-2005, 05:26 PM   #13
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In bold:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
most of mbs cars are less powerful than their bmw equivalents? not true whatsoever. In fact...bmw is BEHIND in every single model in terms of horsepower and torque. The bmws inline 6 in the 330i is inferior to the benz's 3.5liter V6. The engine in the 550i and 750 that produces 360s on both scales, is inferior to benz's new engine coming out in the new S class that pushes 380-90 horses and even more torque.
Which S-class trim will the new engine be put in?

MB just like bmw does not exxagerate their power numbers...and this is very evident when looking at acceleration times of 0-60. Take the E55 for example...it weighs over a ton more than the M3...yet it accelerates to 60 .2 seconds faster than the m3 (4.4 vs 4.6m3).
Didn't you just compare the E60 M5 to the E55 in your previous post? Since they are close in price...the E55 is 40K more than an M3. Not to mention that you're comparing a 5.5L V8 to a 3.2L I6...

Whats even more astonishing is that all MBs come with automatics...and yet can still hit such exotic acceleration numbers. In BMWs case...all automatics accelerate at least a quarter second slower than their manual counterparts.
Of course, Mercedes-Benz specializes in automatic gearboxes. How many of their cars come with a good six-speed?

The reason car mags choose bmw for performance is because it outperforms mb on the TRACK. Now, 99% of people who own bmws never ever take their cars to the track. So whats the use of that?
So they know what their car is capable of, and they don't ONLY test it on the track.

BMW does give u something mb doesnt...and thats a feeling of connection to the road. MB conversely takes this away to keep u isloated from the outside world. This is all a matter of preference though.
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      11-26-2005, 05:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
Wow...are people around here so insecure about their purchase of a bmw that they get so offended when a fellow owner brings up a debate about a different car?
Well, it's like you didn't do ANY research and then just listed skewed comparisons, and started talking out of your ass to make a point. That annoys people at the least. I'm sorry, but after reading your last post, I think you're a moron.
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      11-26-2005, 05:33 PM   #15
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A german friend of mine summed it up like this: MB is a car for the passengers, BMW is a car for the driver, and I tend to agree. I've driven quite a few MB's (mainly C's and E's, but also a couple of S's) and while they can be great cars to sit in, they lack that 'oomph' of a BMW, whether or not it's just my biased perception of the brand. Put simply, I'd drive a MB rental, but I don't think (I won't say never) I would buy one.
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      11-26-2005, 05:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimshimhada
In bold:
the 380hp engine will be the new 500 engine. Meaning the new s500 which is a direct competitor to the 750.

About the m3 vs e55 i was just showing the weight factor. My point about that was that the numbers mb gives out about their output is not an overexageration because the cars really are that fast.

Ok so lets say u take your car to the track. And you push it to its limits...GREAT now u know what youre car is capable of. Now when are u ever going to be able to use what you learned from the track on normal roads where speed limits never exceed 45 except for 65 on the highway? So maybe an M5 will beat an E55 on the track....but how will it do on the highway?
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      11-26-2005, 05:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
the 380hp engine will be the new 500 engine. Meaning the new s500 which is a direct competitor to the 750.

About the m3 vs e55 i was just showing the weight factor. My point about that was that the numbers mb gives out about their output is not an overexageration because the cars really are that fast.

Ok so lets say u take your car to the track. And you push it to its limits...GREAT now u know what youre car is capable of. Now when are u ever going to be able to use what you learned from the track on normal roads where speed limits never exceed 45 except for 65 on the highway? So maybe an M5 will beat an E55 on the track....but how will it do on the highway?
The M5 will beat the E55 on the Autobahn as well:
http://www.m5board.com/articles.php?id=34&page=3
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      11-26-2005, 05:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
hmm maybe i should have posted this thread on the 6 or 5 series forums rather than the 3 series. I am talking about the more upscale benzes...not the C class.

It does not appear to me that you guys have ever driven or owned any of the mb cars im talking about and are not used to the kind of calibur of car that im talking about. I drive a e90 just like all of u guys, but several of my family members who are actually in their 30s do own CLs and SLs.

Now lets get down to your post...you said that mbs are much more expensive than BMW, which is complete bullsh!t. An S class costs as much as a 7 series and a E55 costs as much as an M5.

And whats this you say about old mans benz? I am under 25 and believe me noone i have ever met thinks an E55 is an old mans car. If anything mercedes is one of the most respectable and prestigious car makers in the world. They have far better reliability than porsche. Whats these JD power numbers youre throwing out? They are completely meaningless. My rents had leased a 2003 E class and throughout the entire lease did not have a single rattle or problem with the car. Thats more than i can say about their X5 which has tons of rattles around the car and even my new E90 already has rattles in the back. That being said...why all this talk about reliability? Obviously if you are going to get yourself a car thats over 60,000 you have money in your pocket.

Yes the M3 outperforms the C class amg models...only problem is that a C class is a sedan. If you are looking for m3 comparison look at the CLK...which has over 80 more horses and over 100 more torque than the m3.

Whats with your idea that mercedes is for old people? maybe lexus yea....but benz? thats the most rediculous thing ive ever heard. Maybe you think that because youre not used to seeing young people with money. Hell...a 19 year old girl that lives around the block from me drives a CLS500.

Yes you are right bmws have their own style and "fire" which is why i am a bmw owner. Only problem is....this thread has nothing to do with any of that so i have no clue why you are trying sooo hard to defend bmw.

BTW: wats with all this flaming and talk of drugs? i was under the impression that this was a mature board community.
I love it when people state opinion as facts! HAHAHAHA!

I quote results of a JD Power and Associates 3-year reliability study and supposedly it is "meaningless." I also quote the average age of buyers of various brands and point out that Mercedes owners are much closer in age to Buick owners than any other brand and then SpitFire shoots back with "Mercedes isn't an old man's car." Okay you have your opinion and I have my facts

Also, I have driven, for example, both the E500 and the BMW 545i and I think that the 545i outclasses the E500 BY FAR! Now 545i is replaced by 550i which is even better! And, by the way, the base price for the 550i is 78,600 Canadian dollars and the base price for the E500 is 84,600 Canadian dollars. Also, the C350 starts at 54,950 Candian Dollars and the 330i starts at 47,600 Canadian dollars! MERCEDES ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN BMW. FACTS!
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      11-26-2005, 05:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shimshimhada
Well, it's like you didn't do ANY research and then just listed skewed comparisons, and started talking out of your ass to make a point.
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      11-26-2005, 06:16 PM   #20
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What a waste of the last 5 minutes reading this thread...

Someone should tell him that:
Mercedes is like Lexus
BMW is like Acura
in terms of driving, handling, sports vs luxury, engine philosophy.

It is up to the buyer to choose his/her priorities.

One thing fer sure: MB may win stop-light drag races, but it sure aint' gonna win any races that may involve turning left or right.

Next time you want to ask questions, do so, and we'll kindly answer.
Don't post questions as if you already know the facts, when in fact you're just spewing misinformation.
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      11-26-2005, 06:20 PM   #21
Saosin17
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Sptifire:"My RENTS had leased"

spitfire... are you in fact a 14 year old girl??? just wondering after some statements like that
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      11-26-2005, 07:04 PM   #22
petefalzzz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire6000
This is one thing that i never really understood.

Benz easily mass produces silky smooth cars like the CL55 and 65 which have over 500 horses and over 520 torque and over 700 torque on the 65 model and all of that coming from supercharged V8s.

With bmw, the best they can do with a V10 is a little over 500hp and torque numbers in the 300s.

.
I hate to be rude, but this is a stupid observation. The CL55 starts at 121K and the CL65 @ approx. 180K. I suppose you are comparing these cars to the M6, which will probably have a base price around 90K. Gee... for 30 - 90K more I better get "better" numbers. BTW- Ferrari out performs BMW as well why not throw them in the mix too.

I think the real issue here is a business decision. MB feels they can profitably play in the 150K+ space and BMW chooses for the most part to stay south of 100K. MB may feel the cache associated with the exotic model drives sales of more mundane vehicles like the e class and the c class.
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