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      06-02-2011, 10:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
The only thing I'll add about this whole "Natural Born Citizen" thing is imagine if in this country you always HAD to have both parents born here for a child to be a natural born citizen? With such a nation of immigrants, I imagine there wouldn't have been too many natural born citizens.
I haven't looked at the statistics. At any one time, what would be the ratio of

children born of citizens
children born of aliens

I would guess that children born of citizens, at all times in the United States, had far outweighed the number of children born of aliens. Just a guess.

What was it like when you were either natural born or you were alien? Was it like that for long?

Before the 14th Amendment, how were children born of aliens regarded? Were they citizens? Or only upon their attainder of age (whether that meant 18 years old, 21 years old, or whatever) when they had an option?

I know that in immigration statutes there are many changes through American history with the amount of time living within the country, etc. for various aspects of attaining citizenship. I haven't looked at citizenship by statute for awhile. It is probably outside the scope of this thread, but worthy of discussion somewhere. There were just so many changes in statute that it becomes difficult to study, and difficult to draw any conclusions from it. And it really doesn't have any effect on the discussion of "natural born Citizen" as statute cannot change that.
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      06-02-2011, 10:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
If I provide a scan of the original text as the Founding Fathers would have read it, will you concede that Vattel wasn't the source of the phrase Natural Born Citizen, and as such, Vattel's statements cannot be the glossary definition of the phrase?
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It would be quite welcome to see the scanned pages. Then comparison can be made. As to the source of the exact word "natural born Citizen" you may be able demonstrate that translation was not the source. If in that translation it does not use the words "natural born citizen" as it was found in the images I was able to share, then I would certainly be able to concede that that translation did not contain that translation on those pages. It would lend reasonable support to your argument.
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and take you at your word. Try not to let me down... again. Here are scans of the original texts using the phrase "natives or indegenes" which is the direct translation of “Les Naturels ou indegenes”, which is the phrase that Vattel used in his original French writings.

The first is Vattel London 1760, the second is Vattel 1787 American Edition.
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Thank you very much for posting support for your argument. And I do concede that these two scans you presented do not use the words "natural born citizen" as do other translations.

Now, will you concede without further evidence that Vattel is a highly regarded authority on citizenship and that the founding fathers were well aware of his writings, respected his writings, and referred to them in crafting legislation and the founding documents?

And what do you have to present to establish how the founders understood the words "natural born Citizen" which they prominently included in three requirements for qualification to be President? As it was adopted without debate, certainly it was understood by all. Support your conclusions with evidence.
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I knew I could trust you to weasel out of your promise.

Vattel was NOT used regarding citizenship. I just proved that, and you just weaseled out of your promise.

You are dishonest and a liar.
How so? Now you are expeting promises? I conceded what I affirmed I would concede. And I believe I did so very tactfully. And here you call me a liar. The only reason I agreed to concede anything without reason was simply so that there could be a discussion based on evidence. I appreciate your evidence and accept it for what it is. And as one piece of evidence, it is one piece of the puzzle. For you to expect otherwise is your problem. If you think discussion ends with one good bid of information, you are very wrong.

So, in regard to Vattel, how did the founders view Law of Nations? Was it viewed with contempt? Was it unknown to them? Was it used by them in crafting American documents? Did they use Law of Nations in debate? Did they implement aspects of Law of Nations in statute? You would like to dismiss Vattel, but history did not. You stand alone.
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      06-02-2011, 10:26 PM   #47
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The funniest part of all of this is anytime I Google any combination of "natural born citizen," "Obama," or "Vatell," the first link is for birthers.org.

LOL
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      06-02-2011, 11:01 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
The funniest part of all of this is anytime I Google any combination of "natural born citizen," "Obama," or "Vatell," the first link is for birthers.org.

LOL

Yea, Vattel really had become a non-entity until the Birthers started worshiping him based upon the 1797 translation.

Vattel's whole renaissance is based upon birthers google searching "natural born citizen" and mistakenly making a connection between a translation that didn't exist when the constitution was written, and the US constitution which was written years before.

You will have a hard time finding too many modern references to Vattel outside of birthers.
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      06-02-2011, 11:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Yea, Vattel really had become a non-entity until the Birthers started worshiping him based upon the 1797 translation.

Vattel's whole renaissance is based upon birthers google searching "natural born citizen" and mistakenly making a connection between a translation that didn't exist when the constitution was written, and the US constitution which was written years before.

You will have a hard time finding too many modern references to Vattel outside of birthers.
We will see. That is the purpose of this thread is to examine evidence (not Vattel only, but all applicable sources) with hopefully an analytical approach.
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      06-03-2011, 12:27 AM   #50
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From the horses mouth.


Under Hawaiian law, a family wishing to register the birth of a baby born outside Hawaii can list a family residence in Hawaii as the birth address, even if the mother was residing outside Hawaii at the time the baby was born.





http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur...-0017_0008.HTM
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      06-03-2011, 08:19 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
From the horses mouth.

Under Hawaiian law, a family wishing to register the birth of a baby born outside Hawaii can list a family residence in Hawaii as the birth address, even if the mother was residing outside Hawaii at the time the baby was born.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscur...-0017_0008.HTM
#1 - That's not what this says. It says that a person who had been a resident for at least a year prior to the birth can request a certificate, if they are not currently living in Hawaii.
#2 - Looks like this was drafted in 1982, so I don't see how it's relevant to a 1961 birth. This rule would not have been written in 1961, because Hawaii had only attained statehood a year earlier.
#3 - Of course you know that this is a moot point, because the state certified his birth records, so this misunderstood scenario you have in your head would have been revealed.
#4 - Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. What evidence is there that Obama's mother was anywhere other than Hawaii when he was born?
#5 - I'd be interested to know how you "happened" to have come across this website. No doubt some right-wing birther teabagger's forum.
#6 - You still never answered the questions posed to you over and over: Given that his certificate was certified as valid by both parties in the Hawaiian govt, and that 2 archival newspapers announced his birth in 1961, how can a reasonable person continue to question this?
#7 - Let's suspend reality, and assume this whole birth certificate is a fraud. What is this covering up? What evidence is there that Obama was born outside of Hawaii? What evidence is there that Obama was ever in Kenya as a child? Where is this entire line of inquiry going?

It is clear that some people despise Obama so much, they still don't want to give up hope that he can be removed from office, and their nightmares will be over. So what is so threatening about him? Is he trying to ban guns? Nope, he's pro-NRA. Is he trying to pass federal gay marriage laws? Nope, he's leaving that alone. Is he raising people's taxes? Nope, most Americans have had their taxes lowered, and the marginal amount of those earning over $250K (net) will be taxed as it was pre-Bush - still much lower than during Reagan. Is he declaring war on religion? Nope. Is he taking away any of our rights? Nope. Is he even as liberal as Bill Clinton was? Nope. Is he as liberal as John Kerry, who was close to becoming Pres? Nope.

So ask yourself, why is Obama being singled out over all these other liberals? Why do people despise him?
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      06-03-2011, 08:40 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
#1 - That's not what this says. It says that a person who had been a resident for at least a year prior to the birth can request a certificate, if they are not currently living in Hawaii.
#2 - Looks like this was drafted in 1982, so I don't see how it's relevant to a 1961 birth. This rule would not have been written in 1961, because Hawaii had only attained statehood a year earlier.
#3 - Of course you know that this is a moot point, because the state certified his birth records, so this misunderstood scenario you have in your head would have been revealed.
#4 - Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. What evidence is there that Obama's mother was anywhere other than Hawaii when he was born?
#5 - I'd be interested to know how you "happened" to have come across this website. No doubt some right-wing birther teabagger's forum.
#6 - You still never answered the questions posed to you over and over: Given that his certificate was certified as valid by both parties in the Hawaiian govt, and that 2 archival newspapers announced his birth in 1961, how can a reasonable person continue to question this?
#7 - Let's suspend reality, and assume this whole birth certificate is a fraud. What is this covering up? What evidence is there that Obama was born outside of Hawaii? What evidence is there that Obama was ever in Kenya as a child? Where is this entire line of inquiry going?

It is clear that some people despise Obama so much, they still don't want to give up hope that he can be removed from office, and their nightmares will be over. So what is so threatening about him? Is he trying to ban guns? Nope, he's pro-NRA. Is he trying to pass federal gay marriage laws? Nope, he's leaving that alone. Is he raising people's taxes? Nope, most Americans have had their taxes lowered, and the marginal amount of those earning over $250K (net) will be taxed as it was pre-Bush - still much lower than during Reagan. Is he declaring war on religion? Nope. Is he taking away any of our rights? Nope. Is he even as liberal as Bill Clinton was? Nope. Is he as liberal as John Kerry, who was close to becoming Pres? Nope.

So ask yourself, why is Obama being singled out over all these other liberals? Why do people despise him?
Because they didn't vote for him. They are terribly sore losers that believe they are the only ones that can run this country.
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      06-03-2011, 09:27 AM   #53
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      06-03-2011, 10:33 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
#1 - That's not what this says. It says that a person who had been a resident for at least a year prior to the birth can request a certificate, if they are not currently living in Hawaii.
#2 - Looks like this was drafted in 1982, so I don't see how it's relevant to a 1961 birth. This rule would not have been written in 1961, because Hawaii had only attained statehood a year earlier.
#3 - Of course you know that this is a moot point, because the state certified his birth records, so this misunderstood scenario you have in your head would have been revealed.
#4 - Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. What evidence is there that Obama's mother was anywhere other than Hawaii when he was born?
#5 - I'd be interested to know how you "happened" to have come across this website. No doubt some right-wing birther teabagger's forum.
#6 - You still never answered the questions posed to you over and over: Given that his certificate was certified as valid by both parties in the Hawaiian govt, and that 2 archival newspapers announced his birth in 1961, how can a reasonable person continue to question this?
#7 - Let's suspend reality, and assume this whole birth certificate is a fraud. What is this covering up? What evidence is there that Obama was born outside of Hawaii? What evidence is there that Obama was ever in Kenya as a child? Where is this entire line of inquiry going?

It is clear that some people despise Obama so much, they still don't want to give up hope that he can be removed from office, and their nightmares will be over. So what is so threatening about him? Is he trying to ban guns? Nope, he's pro-NRA. Is he trying to pass federal gay marriage laws? Nope, he's leaving that alone. Is he raising people's taxes? Nope, most Americans have had their taxes lowered, and the marginal amount of those earning over $250K (net) will be taxed as it was pre-Bush - still much lower than during Reagan. Is he declaring war on religion? Nope. Is he taking away any of our rights? Nope. Is he even as liberal as Bill Clinton was? Nope. Is he as liberal as John Kerry, who was close to becoming Pres? Nope.

So ask yourself, why is Obama being singled out over all these other liberals? Why do people despise him?


Do you understand it doesn't matter what year the law came to be?

I can still sue you for pissing in my back yard from 5 years ago, even if the new law let me do so only a month ago.
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      06-03-2011, 02:43 PM   #55
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You need to be able to read for comprehension. This was passed during the 1982 Legislative session. That is what the end notes mean. That means it is impossible for this law to have been used in 1961, because the law didn't exist for another 21 years. You have hit scottwww's time machine problem just like the founding fathers would have needed a time machine to read the Vattel quotes he has posted throughout this thread, because that particular translation from French into English didn't exist until 1797.

Do you care to start a new thread explaining how time travel is real, and US Presidents (past and present) have secret access to it?



A law that was passed in 1982 cannot affect a certificate of live birth from a birth in 1961.



[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate....

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate ...

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91.
[L 1982, c 182, §1]

Last edited by 11Series; 06-03-2011 at 03:14 PM.
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      06-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Do you understand it doesn't matter what year the law came to be?

I can still sue you for pissing in my back yard from 5 years ago, even if the new law let me do so only a month ago.

You completely don't understand even basic concepts of law.
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      06-03-2011, 06:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
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Do you understand it doesn't matter what year the law came to be?
More important than this being wrong, you seem to have overlooked my #1 - you misread the notice, it doesn't say what you think it does.
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      06-03-2011, 06:47 PM   #58
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More important than this being wrong, you seem to have overlooked my #1 - you misread the notice, it doesn't say what you think it does.
Because you are wrong!!

In bold it says; Certificates for children born out of State. That State being Hawaii.

If i lived in Hawaii for one year, and my son was born in Vermont, i can get a birth certificate from Hawaii stating that my son was boron in Hawaii.
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      06-04-2011, 12:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Because you are wrong!!

In bold it says; Certificates for children born out of State. That State being Hawaii.

If i lived in Hawaii for one year, and my son was born in Vermont, i can get a birth certificate from Hawaii stating that my son was boron in Hawaii.
Wrong. The State of Hawaii has been VERY clear about this. This has been addressed directly by multiple Hawaii officials, and they are the folks that actually matter, not you.

After 1982, if you were born outside of the United States, you could get a Hawaii certification of live birth saying you were born overseas, but you were officially a Hawaiian the moment you were born. The certificate of live birth would indicate exactly where you were born, no matter where that was in the world.

This is because US laws on citizenship are that the children of US citizens born overseas are AUTOMATICLY US citizens. There is no requirement for the children of US citizens to be born inside the US for them to be US citizens.

How can you folks claim to know so much about Obama's birth, and yet be so ignorant of the facts?
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      06-04-2011, 01:05 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Wrong. The State of Hawaii has been VERY clear about this. This has been addressed directly by multiple Hawaii officials, and they are the folks that actually matter, not you.

After 1982, if you were born outside of the United States, you could get a Hawaii certification of live birth saying you were born overseas, but you were officially a Hawaiian the moment you were born. The certificate of live birth would indicate exactly where you were born, no matter where that was in the world.

This is because US laws on citizenship are that the children of US citizens born overseas are AUTOMATICLY US citizens. There is no requirement for the children of US citizens to be born inside the US for them to be US citizens.

How can you folks claim to know so much about Obama's birth, and yet be so ignorant of the facts?
As for Obama's birth, if he were born in Kenya, would he be a U.S. citizen? Was his mother old enough to confer her citizenship on Obama in the case of a foreign birth so that he would be a dual-citizen of Britain and the U.S., rather than a British subject only until Kenya broke away from Britain?
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      06-04-2011, 01:25 AM   #61
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As for Obama's birth, if he were born in Kenya, would he be a U.S. citizen? Was his mother old enough to confer her citizenship on Obama in the case of a foreign birth so that he would be a dual-citizen of Britain and the U.S., rather than a British subject only until Kenya broke away from Britain?

Are you f**king kidding me? You seriously don't know the answers to these questions? Both of these are complete no-brainers. Do you even understand the legal status of dual-citzenship according to US law? A few seconds on the US immigration website spells it all out very clearly.


Your credibility just keeps going down and down with every post.
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      06-04-2011, 10:23 AM   #62
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Are you f**king kidding me? You seriously don't know the answers to these questions? Both of these are complete no-brainers. Do you even understand the legal status of dual-citzenship according to US law? A few seconds on the US immigration website spells it all out very clearly.


Your credibility just keeps going down and down with every post.
I asked the question because I was asking for an answer. I have not done any reading on what statutes were in effect in regard to the age of the US citizen birth mother when a baby is born on foreign soil with a foreign father who is of age to confer citizenship. Without reading, there can be little doubt the father's citizenship would devolve to the child. The question was whether the young mother's citizenship would also apply to confer dual citizenship status on the child.

So, no... I am not kidding you. I don't know the answer to that question. I have not read up on all the changes in statute and case law for those kind of citizenship questions to know what was in effect at the time of Obama's birth. This was why I asked. If I don't know, I can ask here as it is part of where the dialog in this thread has gone on this page. Certainly I could look it up, but if I ask, and someone already has done the reading and has a good link or quote for the answer, then it is a good question to ask.

Your reaction to a simple question is overblown. It is rude. It is not how a conversation should unfold. Your reaction is one of picking a fight rather than having a dialog.

My credibility is not the issue. Obama's credibility is.
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      06-04-2011, 10:52 AM   #63
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Quote:
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As for Obama's birth, if he were born in Kenya,
As I predicted, all of this nonsense, that is appearing over and over, year after year, on internet forums such as this, has been definitively summarized here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_...iracy_theories

And with that, I bid farewell to you crazy, pathetic nutjobs.
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      06-04-2011, 11:34 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
As I predicted, all of this nonsense, that is appearing over and over, year after year, on internet forums such as this, has been definitively summarized here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_...iracy_theories

And with that, I bid farewell to you crazy, pathetic nutjobs.
Good bye.
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      06-04-2011, 12:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
As I predicted, all of this nonsense, that is appearing over and over, year after year, on internet forums such as this, has been definitively summarized here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_...iracy_theories

And with that, I bid farewell to you crazy, pathetic nutjobs.

IF it is a Conspiracy Theory, its the largest one so far in history! There are too many people involved to simply ignore it.



I would rather be crazy then a sheep walking in to a slaughter house.
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      06-04-2011, 06:17 PM   #66
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Your credibility just keeps going down and down with every post.
He has credibility to you?
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