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      05-27-2011, 06:04 AM   #1
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BMW 1-series M vs Porsche Cayman R video review

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      05-27-2011, 07:38 AM   #2
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I still don't understand all these comparisons involving the Cayman R. Just because it's a performance car introduced within roughly the same period doesn't mean you should be drawing up comparisons.

Let's see: on one hand, we've got the 1M; a four seater, front-engined sports coupe. On the other, a two-seater, mid-engined sports car that costs (according to Sutcliffe in the vid) 12k pounds more. Hardly a comparison if you ask me, but I'm sure it was made due to the circumstances of these cars' time of introduction.

Give me the Cayman R any day of the week if we're forgoing practicality.
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      05-27-2011, 08:16 AM   #3
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Is it unfair to compare it with the Cayman R? Yes and No.

Yes because the two cars aren't direct rivals to each other, not in a month of Sundays would anyone cross shop these two cars, that and the fact that one is a proper performance coupe that has been taken a step closer to a trackday tool. But here is where the No comes into play, the very fact that the 1M is being compared continuously with this car shows that on sheer ability and entertainment it isn't that far off, yes it's controls don't feel quite as percise, yes it's not quite as polished a performer but it's bloody close and for a fraction of the price. On sheer looks alone I reckon BMW have hit the nail on the head with what they want it's perception to be, i.e. a mean little fu@ker that you don't want to mess with. It's engine/exhaust note doesn't live up to the way it looks, though an aftermarket exhaust will probably help here but it's a shame it's an extra expense that really needs to be allowed for.

The only niggle about the 1M in my opinion and was part of Steve's opening comments was that it's scary to drive quick and that you need to know what you are doing or in other words it will take no prisoners if you over step the mark. Because of this fact there will be many who will love to own this car though won't necessarily have the ability to drive it properly. Bodyshops the world over with do a roaring trade because of this.
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      05-27-2011, 08:23 AM   #4
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^ The fact of the matter is that many on here could probably not handle a Corolla at it's limits much less a 1M.

It seems so much weight is put on 0-60 and 1/4 mile times just to brag at the gym or what not. Not so many "drivers" on here as straight line numbers nuts.

Whatever rocks your dingy.
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      05-27-2011, 02:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The only niggle about the 1M in my opinion and was part of Steve's opening comments was that it's scary to drive quick and that you need to know what you are doing or in other words it will take no prisoners if you over step the mark. Because of this fact there will be many who will love to own this car though won't necessarily have the ability to drive it properly. Bodyshops the world over with do a roaring trade because of this.
That comment resonated with me. It is precisely why I am leaning towards Cayman S even though 1M is growing on me more and more. Suppose with age I am starting to take notice I am fallible.
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      05-27-2011, 04:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
That comment resonated with me. It is precisely why I am leaning towards Cayman S even though 1M is growing on me more and more. Suppose with age I am starting to take notice I am fallible.
Owning a few Boxsters I can say that there is few rwd cars more forgiving than the Cayman, it's one of the reasons why I am such a fan of this car. I haven't anything against the 1M and can fully understand why EVO especially fell head over heels for this car, the more gifted the driver the more pleasure one can get out of it. But everyone and I mean EVERY ONE of those journalists say it's a raw back to basics type of a car, very much from a generation or two back so to drive it quick you REALLY need to know what you are doing and be fully committed and have your wits about you.

The number of d1cks that feel this is the car for them because they have some misguided belief they can drive with probably learn very quickly and expensively that they made the wrong choice and will either end up getting rid or driving less aggressively.
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      05-27-2011, 04:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Is it unfair to compare it with the Cayman R? Yes and No.


The only niggle about the 1M in my opinion and was part of Steve's opening comments was that it's scary to drive quick and that you need to know what you are doing or in other words it will take no prisoners if you over step the mark. Because of this fact there will be many who will love to own this car though won't necessarily have the ability to drive it properly. Bodyshops the world over with do a roaring trade because of this.
I agree with the bulk of your post. 2 parts I'd like to raise issue with, however:

1.) I think the 1//M is a closer competitor to the Cayman R than you and others acknowledge. In the United States in particular, the price difference is ~$15,000 more (approximately the same price as an E92 M3) for the Cayman R. Also, the 1//M is arguably set up the best for the track out of all the //M cars - it's relatively light on frills, bells and whistles in comparison to the M3 and the old M5. 15 grand is not a small pocket of change, but it certainly places the car in the mind of a car shopper, particularly when both cars have a similar purpose (and similar power output, for that matter!)

2.) Despite the video, I think the 1//M would be far easier to drive than the Cayman R. I don't have a great deal of experience at the wheel of a mid or rear-engined vehicle, but I'd imagine that a front-engined, rear wheel drive car is far easier to maintain close to the limit than the former two options. Just seeing all the Youtube videos of porsches encountering lift-off oversteer is enough to convince me of this!
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      05-27-2011, 04:55 PM   #8
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I wish they would stop comparing it to the e30
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      05-27-2011, 05:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I agree with the bulk of your post. 2 parts I'd like to raise issue with, however:

1.) I think the 1//M is a closer competitor to the Cayman R than you and others acknowledge. In the United States in particular, the price difference is ~$15,000 more (approximately the same price as an E92 M3) for the Cayman R. Also, the 1//M is arguably set up the best for the track out of all the //M cars - it's relatively light on frills, bells and whistles in comparison to the M3 and the old M5. 15 grand is not a small pocket of change, but it certainly places the car in the mind of a car shopper, particularly when both cars have a similar purpose (and similar power output, for that matter!)

2.) Despite the video, I think the 1//M would be far easier to drive than the Cayman R. I don't have a great deal of experience at the wheel of a mid or rear-engined vehicle, but I'd imagine that a front-engined, rear wheel drive car is far easier to maintain close to the limit than the former two options. Just seeing all the Youtube videos of porsches encountering lift-off oversteer is enough to convince me of this!

If you take a look from a different perspective which is if I am ready to drop 70-80k, wouldn't I cross shop with a GTR and Vette more than 1M? The lens everyone looks through here is I want a 1M now lets justify why it is a better buy than others.
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      05-27-2011, 05:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I agree with the bulk of your post. 2 parts I'd like to raise issue with, however:

1.) I think the 1//M is a closer competitor to the Cayman R than you and others acknowledge. In the United States in particular, the price difference is ~$15,000 more (approximately the same price as an E92 M3) for the Cayman R. Also, the 1//M is arguably set up the best for the track out of all the //M cars - it's relatively light on frills, bells and whistles in comparison to the M3 and the old M5. 15 grand is not a small pocket of change, but it certainly places the car in the mind of a car shopper, particularly when both cars have a similar purpose (and similar power output, for that matter!)
Yeah I agree that the 1M is the most focused M car (excluding the GTS) since probably the E30 which is probably why they keep referring to it all the time. I think I even said earlier on that it's probably quite close to the Cayman R on thrills but I completely agree with Steve that it's that final degree of precision is where they really differ and if you can afford it then it's the Cayman R or even S that you'll go for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
2.) Despite the video, I think the 1//M would be far easier to drive than the Cayman R. I don't have a great deal of experience at the wheel of a mid or rear-engined vehicle, but I'd imagine that a front-engined, rear wheel drive car is far easier to maintain close to the limit than the former two options. Just seeing all the Youtube videos of porsches encountering lift-off oversteer is enough to convince me of this!
Don't mistake the older 911 behaviour as a universal thing for all Porsches especially the Cayman/Boxster, track either of them and you'll realise that they are very hard to ruffle. I've yet to drive the 1M but listening to all those journalists saying the same thing makes me think that it's not that forgiving when the DSC is off, of course you could always leave it on but then you won't get to experience the difference between a 135i and the 1M which is hardly the point.

Not knocking the 1M because I really love the look of this thing, I am finding it to be far more desirable than the M3 I use to own and can bet you that if this had been around at the time then I doubt I would have bought the big brother. But after having an M car I having final got owning one out of my system I doubt I'll be back any time soon.

That is unless they final offer awd as an option, only then will I have another look.
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      05-27-2011, 08:18 PM   #11
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Footie and Shift:

It seems that I had a few misconceptions about the drivability of a mid-engined sports car. I always knew that the mid-engined setup would be quicker, but I imagined it would be harder to drive at the limit - it's comforting to hear this is not the case.

Also, do note that I am NOT questioning the performance ability of the Cayman. I would at the drop of a hat take a Cayman R over the 1//M, it's not even up for debate in my mind. I just hope that Porsche sticks with a large lineup of naturally aspirated engines - although that is wishful thinking.

Footie, I wonder if the complaints that reviewers have about the 1//M stems from the aggressive torque curve? BMW likes to tout that the engine delivers near-maximum torque at very low RPMs, and I wonder if this contributes to its instability in comparison to the M3. It's very disappointing in my mind, given how easily the M3 can be driven to its limits. I always thought this had to do with the suspension and tire setup in an M3 being set up for slight understeer - but perhaps I was wrong.
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      05-27-2011, 10:29 PM   #12
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The 1M's twitchiness is more likely attributable to its short wheel base and high levels of grip. Smaller (shorter) RWD platforms tend to be snappier at the limit. With as much underrated power as the 1M is making (dynoed 330+ rwhp and 360+ rwtq), there's no doubt that you'd have to understand how to drive in order to have fun. I think I'd appreciate it that much more, although it's worth mentioning that I'm a fan of ridiculous tail-out antics over outright laptimes.
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      05-28-2011, 04:39 AM   #13
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Autocar's answer to the Cayman R vs 1M comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocar
1M v Cayman R - the truth Fri May 27 2011

Steve Sutcliffe

There would appear to be a fair bit of confusion (to put it mildly) or rage (to put it succinctly) about why we compared the BMW 1M with Porsche’s rather more expensive Cayman R. So I thought I’d put the record straight and explain why we did what we did, and reveal a few home truths at the same time.

And then hopefully the confusion – and the anger perhaps – might fade away gracefully into the ether, allowing us all to carry on enjoying our world of cars with a nice clear mind.

So if the class is ready, I shall begin (sit down please Cavellini; put that mobile away 289; oh for heavens sake jl4069, would you at least try to leave poor old Los Angeles alone for one minute).

Right then, where were we. Ah yes, 1M versus Cayman R. Why? Several reasons.

One; the BMW is, in BMW’s words, a no-compromise driver’s car, so we wanted to test that claim to the full. It’s limited in production numbers so therefore doesn’t need to appeal to or satisfy the wider market, which has allowed its engineers to produce a more ‘focused’ car than they normally would – according to BMW. In essense, then, what we are talking about is a CSL version straight out of the box. A car that may well have four seats and be based on the underpinnings of a more mainstream machine, but one that – because of the above – is also designed to appeal (in theory) to the exact same person who might fancy themselves behind the wheel of a Porsche Cayman. Hence our comparison.

Two; the Cayman we wanted to test the BMW against was actually the S, not the R. But for whatever reason (conspiracy theorists calm down please, otherwise I’ll sit you in the corner next to 4069) Porsche wouldn’t ‘make available’ a Cayman S for this particular test. In fact, in anticipation of this test Porsche GB put several Cayman Rs on its press fleet. PGB knew, in other words, that various media would be wanting to compare a Cayman with the 1M, but it wanted that Cayman to be an R, not an S. Given that we can’t afford to go out and buy a Cayman S for a one-off story, we had to make do therefore with an R. We also decided not to try to borrow an S from a dealer or source one privately – because more often than not when we have, things have gone very wrong indeed…

Three; we also decided not to compare the BMW with an Audi TT RS because we regarded it to be too soft a target. Same goes for the RS3. The Audis in question are very good cars but not, in our opinion, great ones. Whereas the Cayman – in any guise to be honest – is. And we wanted to test the BMW against the very best, what with BMW’s claims being as big as they are.

Four; 1M v Cayman R actually turned out to be the correct comparison to do in the end anyway – despite the BMW’s extra seats, its smaller price tag and its theoretically less thoroughbred underpinnings. Why? Because the BMW, as it turned out, is very much the real deal. It’s a genuinely committed keen driver’s car; one that anyone who knows why they enjoy driving a Cayman as much as they do, would also get a huge kick out of. The fact that it loses to the Cayman in the end, just, is actually of little bearing overall – because the headline news is that the BMW delivers, in spades, and at last.

And the first person to suggest that there is, in light of the above, no relevance in car magazines conducting comparison any longer has missed the point by a country mile. We do comparisons to give the latest new cars a context in which to be judged. Just because one car loses and the other wins, doesn’t mean both cars can’t be winners. In this instance that’s precisely the conclusion.

The BMW is a terrific car but the Cayman – in our opinion – is that little bit better still. And if you disagree with that judgement, that’s absolutely fine – because in this class, healthy debate is what we’re all about.

Always has been, always will be, A-men.

(jl4069, take Los Angles’ left elbow out of your mouth, right now, please…)

1M v Cayman R - the truth - Tester
I completely agree with Steve's comments here, sure it could as easily have been compared with the Cayman S and it probably would have been the more ideal comparison with probably the same outcome but in testing it with the Cayman R (arguably the finest driver's car) it shows up the 1M's weaknesses and more importantly it's strengths. I also agree that leaving out either of the two Audis was the wise decision here as neither are as entertaining even though each are as capable to compete in absolute terms of numbers produced either in a straightline or own track, frankly their addition would have only clouded things, this wasn't to find the best overall daily drivers but was a test to see if the 1M was indeed the finest driver's M car in recent years.

And you know what, it is and it shows that BMW's decision to switch to FI didn't dull the experience one bit, neither did using a non dedicated M engine. What's important is offering the driving experience through the seat of the pants that defines an M car.

Well done BMW.
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      05-28-2011, 03:28 PM   #14
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what an idiot. its a fucking Porsche, doesnt matter if its an 1m or M3 or M5 a Porsche is a Porsche its different then any other car. stupid video. id rather see the 1m go against a e92 M3
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      05-28-2011, 06:46 PM   #15
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what an idiot. its a fucking Porsche, doesnt matter if its an 1m or M3 or M5 a Porsche is a Porsche its different then any other car. stupid video. id rather see the 1m go against a e92 M3
Calling Steve an idiot makes you sound like an ignoramus.
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      05-28-2011, 07:14 PM   #16
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Not a Porsche fan at all unless it has a V10.

Thats why I love the 1M.. Way more practicality.

Porsche=Overpriced (They are great cars but not my cup of tea.)
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      05-28-2011, 09:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoutnj89 View Post
Not a Porsche fan at all unless it has a V10.

Thats why I love the 1M.. Way more practicality.

Porsche=Overpriced (They are great cars but not my cup of tea.)
Anything is overpriced to people that can't afford them

IMO I don't think Porsche is overpriced at all, just some of their options are a little too expensive for what you get. But at the end of the day, it is a porsche you're dealing with. What IS overpriced though are the AMG models (CL, SL, and S class in particular).. ie - the CL 65 is $207,000...

Oh and I absolutely love the Cayman R and I don't think the 1M is even close in comparison. To me the 1M is a 135i with a widebody, the performance power kit, and M3 suspension bits retrofitted to it. I should also let it be known that I would take a N/A engine over a boosted one any day of the week, so I may be a little biased even though I own a 335i
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      05-29-2011, 12:07 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by cuban335i View Post
Anything is overpriced to people that can't afford them

IMO I don't think Porsche is overpriced at all, just some of their options are a little too expensive for what you get. But at the end of the day, it is a porsche you're dealing with. What IS overpriced though are the AMG models (CL, SL, and S class in particular).. ie - the CL 65 is $207,000...

Oh and I absolutely love the Cayman R and I don't think the 1M is even close in comparison. To me the 1M is a 135i with a widebody, the performance power kit, and M3 suspension bits retrofitted to it. I should also let it be known that I would take a N/A engine over a boosted one any day of the week, so I may be a little biased even though I own a 335i
Huh... U couldn't afford the M3!!!??!! JK. Just because I say it is overpriced does not mean I couldn't afford it. I went to look at a Cayman S before I bought my 1. How much is the R. If its M3 money I would buy the M3 any day of the week. And that to me would make it overpriced. I will never own a porsche. Unless it looks like this... (A friends car in the pic)

You are the biggest hypocrite on this forum. WOW.. You drive a 335i Hey by the way start looking at new performance cars that are coming out, N/A engines are not the way to go anymore. The power and MPGs you get from a turbo is great!

I was not trying to be mean.. Ps- u car looks great.

My friend had a Porsche turbo (vert) and Now he has a CL 550. The CL AMG its a TT V12 pushing over 600HP for 200K. ONE HELL OF A DEAL.. If you think thats overpriced I would hate to hear what you think a Zonda is priced at.. Thats one hell of a deal (A TT V12 GOD might as well hand over the throne to u)
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      05-29-2011, 12:19 AM   #19
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You could say most P-cars are overpriced simply based on the manufactuer's profit margins. They could easily afford to lower their prices a good bit. Then again, you're paying for nearly unmatched lvels of prestige and build quality. They're not unfairly priced, but their pricing strategy allows them to nickel and dime you to death, but that's at the consumer's hands as to how far they want to dip into their wallets.
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      05-29-2011, 12:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Nikkahtropolis View Post
You could say most P-cars are overpriced simply based on the manufactuer's profit margins. They could easily afford to lower their prices a good bit. Then again, you're paying for nearly unmatched lvels of prestige and build quality. They're not unfairly priced, but their pricing strategy allows them to nickel and dime you to death, but that's at the consumer's hands as to how far they want to dip into their wallets.
Ya, I just feel for what you get its just not me. The sound is not at the top of my list (EXCEPT for the GT), They are so small, next to no trunk. Just not worth it.
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      05-29-2011, 12:42 AM   #21
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If you feel Porsches are over priced then what must you not think of Ferarris. Afterall they offer not real performance advantage over Porsche yet cost a packet in comparison and are less reliable to boot.

Sorry for not understanding your logic, the CGT offers no performance enchancement over the GT2RS yet cost how much more. It seems that at times you champion value over image/prestige/status and yet your only Porsche that's worthy in your opinion is the most overpriced of them all.

In a word ...... confused am I.
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      05-29-2011, 01:00 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
If you feel Porsches are over priced then what must you not think of Ferarris. Afterall they offer not real performance advantage over Porsche yet cost a packet in comparison and are less reliable to boot.

Sorry for not understanding your logic, the CGT offers no performance enchancement over the GT2RS yet cost how much more. It seems that at times you champion value over image/prestige/status and yet your only Porsche that's worthy in your opinion is the most overpriced of them all.

In a word ...... confused am I.
I agree with you about the CGT.. And that just proves my point over priced..

Forget the CGT.. Just a Porsche I like. But you get so much more from a Ferrari thats why they cost so much more. Look at the Top Gear times.. Also I am more of a day to day driver, I very rarely get to hit the track unless I am Invited.

I like the CGT because of the # of them, The engine of course...(WOW WHAT A SOUND) and the design.

I just feel every time I look at a Porsche and see the price I say "Damn for that price I could have ________"

Hell I saw this today and got excited..
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