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      05-24-2011, 02:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Taza

Making a general statement about design A over design B like you have without all of the variables being factored does not make much sense. If you would like to discuss a particular example of air/air VS air/water on the E9X M3 with data you have collected I would be open to that. There are many things you are not considering including installation complexity, tuning, boost levels etc... but lets cover just the basics.

First is that the cooling efficiency of any kit can vary. For example just because two cars run an air/air cooling system one can have significantly better cooling based on the design and quality of the kit. There is never any guarantee one design is better than another without testing on the kit being discussed and on the vehicle being discussed. Second you have to factor in the discharge air temps of the blower used when comparing any kits charge cooling to another. For example blowers that are less efficient and are spun faster will generate more heat which will have a negative effect on your total intake air temps after cooling. Third you have to consider placement of your air to air cooler in relation to the vehicle it is installed on and you have to know "with testing" that it will not block or add heated air to the factory radiator. Because of these many variables you have to consider the efficiency of cooling based on the design of the overall kit, the blower you use, how efficient the blower you’re using is and the vehicle you are installing the kit on.

We have used and still use air/air systems on some of our cars and could have used air/air on the E9X M3 but with our testing we found air/water to be more efficient with this application. Our current VT2 cooling system was designed for 1000 HP and up to 14 psi of boost. It is over engineered for the level of power it is currently being used for. I think the feedback from our customers who regularly track their E9X M3's will prove that our cooling system works extremely well in the real world "without water/meth" and you will also see that when our cars are run on the dyno back to back to back without cool downs the power stays very consistent.
Roman I respect that and I think you guys have a great kit no doubt about it! However these comparisons are just not fair and you even admit that by saying there is so much to compare here.

One thing is for sure though, even though your setup can be very efficient its still in the nature of the water/air setup to suffer from some heatsoak from normal use. Plenty of articles and tests have proved this.
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      05-24-2011, 03:44 PM   #68
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all i can say i am glad we can have a civilized conversation about this.
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      05-24-2011, 03:45 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazam3 View Post
Im guessing you guys dont read other threads then, its an ongoing issue. But lets just get back to what really matters...

I read plenty of other threads...and IMG is a personal friend of mine as well.

He didn't come in here bashing AA...it's as simple as that!
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      05-24-2011, 03:47 PM   #70
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Regarding Air to Air Intercooling

After reading those articles I think it is fair to say that TazaM3 is simply stating that when possible an air to air system is better suited for a street car when compared to a water to air system. I agree there are other variables that need to be taken into consideration. Installation complexity has always been one of the main reasons why a lot of companies go with Air to Water systems opposed to Air to Air. The biggest thing we have run into over the years of testing is cooling down the water after it get's hot.... which is why 'Ice induced' water to air systems have been so popular over the years but we do not see that as an option for the average BMW owner. I am sure many of you who have frequented 1/4 tracks over the years have seen cars with large ice bags, etc that are used to cool down the water..

Here is a good excerpt from one of the articles from Bell.

Quote:
What are the relative merits of an air or water-cooled intercooler and which would suit my purposes best?
This depends on the circumstances. These circumstances are; street use, drag racing, or endurance racing (more than two minutes).

Street use: The air-to-air intercooler will prove superior in efficiency when sized properly.

Drag racing: The short spurt of power allows the iced water to cool the charge air to below ambient temperature.

Endurance racing: The air-to-air intercooler is clearly superior due to the shorter route of getting the heat out of the air charge and into the atmosphere. Endurance racing would preclude the use of ice water, thus negating the singular advantage of the water intercooler. Further, the air-to-air intercooler is (virtually, see comments below) maintenance free. "
As I stated earlier each design has their pros and cons and I think the beauty of the market right now is that the consumer has more than one choice.
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      05-24-2011, 04:04 PM   #71
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Hey Guys,

In regards to making fair comparisons, this thread does lack the necessary info to accurately generate quite a few conclusions.

However it does seem there are a few assumptions going on such as charger efficiency and how the chargers RPM relates to power, etc... In other words it seems there is a 'stuck inside the box' mentality especially when it comes to chargers, efficiency and like data.

It seems the understanding of being different is not coming across very well as if there is a standard on what works and what doesn't and if this so called standard is not achieved then it is not efficient, etc... However, certain important variables such as adiabatic efficiency, charger gearing, wheel size or design (gears vs friction) are being thrown out...

For example:
A recent model (5.0 Engine) Mustang will make ~412 and redlines at ~6500. An E9X M3 (4.0 Engine) will make ~414 and redlines at ~8400.

With the current mind set, the Mustang would be more efficient and the M3 would be less efficient while generating more heat to compare...

However, since we are on a BMW enthusiast forum that that is not the case, the two engines are different. It would also seem that the smaller 4.0 engine has won many of your hearts as many of us drive BMW E9X M3's but many recent posts would conflict with your choice of car since the Mustang is more efficient (based on the mind set touched on above) and less expensive. So what are we doing with M3's...?

It would also seem the physical size of said chargers have become the deciding factor on power... However as mentioned above a different design and gearing will allow a proper sized wheel to fit in a smaller package while providing more Torque with the option to intercool a system (air/air). While the choice to use a larger charger is a viable choice, it does provide an issue since space is of concern and forces the use of water/air cooling as that becomes your only option not a choice...
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      05-24-2011, 04:12 PM   #72
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A lot of the talk in here is mumbo jumbo to me and some PR talk, I say let the pudding be the proof. There are literally dozens and dozens of ESS kits out there making claimed power, while AA is still in the mists of doing so (which is not a bad thing just need time to make its mark). Both make awesome products with years and years of experience. Just let the results speak for themselves!
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      05-24-2011, 04:29 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Taza

Making a general statement about design A over design B like you have without all of the variables being factored does not make much sense. If you would like to discuss a particular example of air/air VS air/water on the E9X M3 with data you have collected I would be open to that. There are many things you are not considering including installation complexity, tuning, boost levels etc... but lets cover just the basics.

First is that the cooling efficiency of any kit can vary. For example just because two cars run an air/air cooling system one can have significantly better cooling based on the design and quality of the kit. There is never any guarantee one design is better than another without testing on the kit being discussed and on the vehicle being discussed. Second you have to factor in the discharge air temps of the blower used when comparing any kits charge cooling to another. For example blowers that are less efficient and are spun faster will generate more heat which will have a negative effect on your total intake air temps after cooling. Third you have to consider placement of your air to air cooler in relation to the vehicle it is installed on and you have to know "with testing" that it will not block or add heated air to the factory radiator. Because of these many variables you have to consider the efficiency of cooling based on the design of the overall kit, the blower you use, how efficient the blower you’re using is and the vehicle you are installing the kit on.

We have used and still use air/air systems on some of our cars and could have used air/air on the E9X M3 but with our testing we found air/water to be more efficient with this application. Our current VT2 cooling system was designed for 1000 HP and up to 14 psi of boost. It is over engineered for the level of power it is currently being used for. I think the feedback from our customers who regularly track their E9X M3's will prove that our cooling system works extremely well in the real world "without water/meth" and you will also see that when our cars are run on the dyno back to back to back without cool downs the power stays very consistent.

as one of the ESS owners who tracks, I can vouch for the fact that the ESS cooling system works perfectly. while I don't have a gauge to measure IAT's, I do monitor water temp and this car does an exceptional job of shedding heat from hard track use.

I would also add, more specifically to Roman's first point above, that the placement of the intake has a considerable effect on IAT's. one of the biggest draws of the ESS system for me was the placement of the air filter to draw air from outside the engine bay.

in any case, you can have intellectual debates over the merits of air/water or air/air cooling, but all that matters for us is which is more effective in a the e9x M3 application. Roman has posted plenty of information before on IAT's relative to ambient temp - those are the numbers that count.
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      05-24-2011, 04:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Hey Guys,

In regards to making fair comparisons, this thread does lack the necessary info to accurately generate quite a few conclusions.

However it does seem there are a few assumptions going on such as charger efficiency and how the chargers RPM relates to power, etc... In other words it seems there is a 'stuck inside the box' mentality especially when it comes to chargers, efficiency and like data.

It seems the understanding of being different is not coming across very well as if there is a standard on what works and what doesn't and if this so called standard is not achieved then it is not efficient, etc... However, certain important variables such as adiabatic efficiency, charger gearing, wheel size or design (gears vs friction) are being thrown out...

For example:
A recent model (5.0 Engine) Mustang will make ~412 and redlines at ~6500. An E9X M3 (4.0 Engine) will make ~414 and redlines at ~8400.

With the current mind set, the Mustang would be more efficient and the M3 would be less efficient while generating more heat to compare...

However, since we are on a BMW enthusiast forum that that is not the case, the two engines are different. It would also seem that the smaller 4.0 engine has won many of your hearts as many of us drive BMW E9X M3's but many recent posts would conflict with your choice of car since the Mustang is more efficient (based on the mind set touched on above) and less expensive. So what are we doing with M3's...?

It would also seem the physical size of said chargers have become the deciding factor on power... However as mentioned above a different design and gearing will allow a proper sized wheel to fit in a smaller package while providing more Torque with the option to intercool a system (air/air). While the choice to use a larger charger is a viable choice, it does provide an issue since space is of concern and forces the use of water/air cooling as that becomes your only option not a choice...
Hey Jean or Omar, if the air to air cooling system that you use is better than air to water,why do you require owners to run water/meth kit?
you stated in the past that your kit doesnt need water/meth and its only for cooling/addintional cooling so why do you need water/meth cooling if your cooling system is fine?
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      05-24-2011, 04:53 PM   #75
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i think each kit is awesome, there is not a certain way to make a kit. Each company will defend their product because they spent countless hours working hard to try to please us enthusiasts who want more power. I don't think anyone can say "one" kit is better than other or more "efficient". Each kit is making power and proving itself worthy to be on a E9X M3.
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      05-24-2011, 04:57 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Hey Jean or Omar, if the air to air cooling system that you use is better than air to water,why do you require owners to run water/meth kit?
you stated in the past that your kit doesnt need water/meth and its only for cooling/addintional cooling so why do you need water/meth cooling if your cooling system is fine?
the kits don't require a meth kit its a option you can add on.
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      05-24-2011, 04:59 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Hey Jean or Omar, if the air to air cooling system that you use is better than air to water,why do you require owners to run water/meth kit?
you stated in the past that your kit doesnt need water/meth and its only for cooling/addintional cooling so why do you need water/meth cooling if your cooling system is fine?
Dear IMG,

None of our systems are required to run meth. We offer meth as an optional upgrade for stage 2 kits and recommend it for 91 octane cars.

If you refer back to this thread you will find more information.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535345

Even on the systems with meth we do not tune dependent on the meth and we are aware there is power being left on the table by not doing so.

Keep in mind when comparing these systems no where does anyone address heatsoak, how to prevent it, power loss associated with heatsoak, etc...

Another member said it best.... There are a good amount of kits here on the forums and out in the world and you, the consumer have the ability to choose the one that best suits your needs...

Best Regards,
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      05-24-2011, 05:01 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akh23456 View Post
i think each kit is awesome, there is not a certain way to make a kit. Each company will defend their product because they spent countless hours working hard to try to please us enthusiasts who want more power. I don't think anyone can say "one" kit is better than other or more "efficient". Each kit is making power and proving itself worthy to be on a E9X M3.
Spoken like a true gentleman.

Just enjoy your cars everyone
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      05-24-2011, 05:43 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Spoken like a true gentleman.

Just enjoy your cars everyone
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      05-24-2011, 06:04 PM   #80
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Omar/Jean,

Quick question for you guys: What kind of intercooling system is utilized in the following OEM, high-boost, forced induction cars?

BMW F01 750i
BMW F10 550i
BMW X5 50i
BMW X6 50i
BMW X5M
BMW X6M
BMW F10 M5
MB SLR
MB AMG 65 Twin Turbo V12
MB AMG 63 Twin Turbo V8
MB AMG 55 V8 kompressor
Jaguar XKR V8 kompressor
Ford GT
Ford Mustang GT500
Corvette C6 ZR1

I think you need to call the heads of R&D at BMW, BMW M, MB AMG, Jaguar, GM and Ford and teach them a little forced induction engineering because it seems they do not know what they are doing..

What they do seem to know is not to block off virtually all air supply to the engine radiator and use a pathetically underdimensioned kompressor, spinning it way over max rated RPM while developing large amounts of heat and hoping it will last at least until the warranty period is over. None of their cars seem to lose all power in the last 500RPM of the power band from a completely saturated blower either? I think they need some engineering input guys as this does not seem right following your logic or lack thereof..

Last edited by AJ@ESS; 05-24-2011 at 06:13 PM.
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      05-24-2011, 06:23 PM   #81
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oh my.......
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      05-24-2011, 06:28 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ@ESS View Post
Omar/Jean,

Quick question for you guys: What kind of intercooling system is utilized in the following OEM, high-boost, forced induction cars?

BMW F01 750i
BMW F10 550i
BMW X5 50i
BMW X6 50i
BMW X5M
BMW X6M
BMW F10 M5
MB SLR
MB AMG 65 Twin Turbo V12
MB AMG 63 Twin Turbo V8
MB AMG 55 V8 kompressor
Jaguar XKR V8 kompressor
Ford GT
Ford Mustang GT500
Corvette C6 ZR1

I think you need to call the heads of R&D at BMW, BMW M, MB AMG, Jaguar, GM and Ford and teach them a little forced induction engineering because it seems they do not know what they are doing..

What they do seem to know is not to block off virtually all air supply to the engine radiator and use a pathetically underdimensioned kompressor, spinning it way over max rated RPM while developing large amounts of heat and hoping it will last at least until the warranty period is over. None of their cars seem to lose all power in the last 500RPM of the power band from a completely saturated blower either? I think they need some engineering input guys as this does not seem right following your logic or lack thereof..


Spoken like a true Gentleman...
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      05-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Studntloan View Post
oh my.......
....god
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      05-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #84
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that sounds like a little ownege....
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      05-24-2011, 06:32 PM   #85
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+1, I dont think anything else needs to be said lol...
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      05-24-2011, 06:35 PM   #86
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I too can make a list of cars that use air to air intercoolers... See where this is going... I guess BMW dropped the ball on the 335 and 1M too.

You should mention that some of the cars mentioned have a similar issue. Lack of space.

Also rear engine cars tend to use and air/water due to the location of the engine...

It's a real shame we can not have a civil discussion...

Great post BTW...

DBTG.

Last edited by Jean@ActiveAutowerke; 05-24-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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      05-24-2011, 07:01 PM   #87
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subscribed for the future time when i have to make the decision to buy a "mustang" or an "M3". LOL
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      05-24-2011, 07:06 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
Spoken like a true Gentleman...
That's what I call European hard knocks intellect !!
And yes spoken like a true gentleman , bullshiting and beating around the bush is for woman!!
There's two things in this world
1) right = works
2) wrong= doesn't work

What side ofthe fence are you on ??
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