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      05-20-2011, 09:47 AM   #67
scheherazade
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Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
So basically we are now calling the entry-level Ferrari a "supercar"?

Yes the 458 is amazing, I drool over it. But it is not a supercar. A supercar is a Zonda, Koenigsegg, or Veyron.

Same goes for the GTR, it is not a supercar. Yes it is quick, but it is missing some main ingredients to be labeled a supercar. I hate how that word is just tossed around now.



Your supercars are barely seconds quicker around the track (eg. regular veyron is 0.8 seconds faster than the 458 on a short course - and the 458 doesn't even have AWD)
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/top_gear_track.html

Hockenheim short, the 458 and both original and facelifted GT-Rs beat the Zonda F.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short.html

Same situation around nurburgring. Only the clubsport version of the Zonda F gets past the 458 and GT-R - and the facelifted GT-R beats it anyways.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html



They all have 'top 1%' performance, and they all have 'less than 1%' representation.
Performance, and rarity.
That makes both a supercar and an exotic.

But like all definitions, there's a range of cars that fit into it.
Eg. All these are "GT" cars - and so is a chevy impala.
But you wouldn't cross shop an impala with a veyron... (well, unless you have 'tycoon money' and they are both 'cheap like water' in your mind).

Anyways, they're all supercars - to some degree. Some more 'super' than others.

Over time, the slower ones will be matched or eclipsed by your daily regular cars - at which point they will be 'ex super cars'.
(eg. 335i will stomp a testarossa, but back in the day the testarossa was shit hot).
In this regard, the 458 and GT-R will be eclipsed sooner than say a veyron.

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      05-23-2011, 01:28 PM   #68
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^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

Straight-line races? The point? lol
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      05-24-2011, 12:13 PM   #69
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I thought those cars were now divided into supercar, and hypercar.
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      05-24-2011, 03:25 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blipit View Post
It isn't all about speed or lap times. I agree with other poster, supercar is thrown around to easily. What happened to the special uniqueness of a supercar? The 458 even laps Fiorano faster than the old Enzo, it still isn't a "supercar". Speed is not the only quality to a supercar. So you think a ZR-1 is a supercar, because of "ring" times. That is plain stupid. These cars may be as quick or quicker than some supercars, but they don't get that label. Besides speed, they don't have those exotic and rare qualities of a true "supercar".
Name some qualities of the zhonda or veyron that make it above and beyond.

This of course can't be :
1) rarity - because a 458 is rare (hell, so is a ZR1)
2) mid engine - because a 458 is mid engine
3) wacky doors - because a mosler MT900 has wacky doors, and it costs less than a 911 tt with any options.
4) speed - because a crap load of cars are fast as hell
5) lightness - because an MT900 is super light, and so is an elise.
6) power - plenty of powerful cars
7) looks - plenty of exotic lookers
...

(p.s. I'll go ahead and give you price and badge).

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      05-24-2011, 03:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
So basically we are now calling the entry-level Ferrari a "supercar"?

Yes the 458 is amazing, I drool over it. But it is not a supercar. A supercar is a Zonda, Koenigsegg, or Veyron.

Same goes for the GTR, it is not a supercar. Yes it is quick, but it is missing some main ingredients to be labeled a supercar. I hate how that word is just tossed around now.
I agree, I have a GT-R, it is not a supercar, but its is "near" supercar performance as I would call it. Its not a supercar. The Veyron is without a doubt a supercar. I know these videos are old that Im posting, but if this isnt a supercar then please show me what is. You have to love the germans The first time they ran the Veyron engine full throttle in testing, it caught the building on fire. The engine produced nearly 3,000 horsepower at full power.







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      05-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #72
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I would tend to agree with scheherazade...a ferrari gto is a proper supercar. I would be inclined to say that a 458 is more on the line of exotic car.
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      05-27-2011, 03:05 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
The first time they ran the Veyron engine full throttle in testing, it caught the building on fire. The engine produced nearly 3,000 horsepower at full power.
Not true. Almost a semantic issue but not quite. Engines used for vehicles are always rated as to how much mechanical power they produce, never the total power. If you used this same way of measuring you would also say the E92 produces 1200 hp (or perhaps only 1000, whatever).
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      05-30-2011, 01:36 PM   #74
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i would love to see those cars run up against this car:



*drool*
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      05-30-2011, 01:49 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itzjonjon69 View Post
i would love to see those cars run up against this car:


*drool*
Evoms makes some great stuff, very fast cars, excellent products, tuning, etc. Love that car and would love to run it, but would rather own one, haha.

Here's some runs with some cars that are in the same league mod wise and power wise that might give you an idea how they'd stack up against that GT2. Both the AWE and Proto 997TT's in the vid have upgraded VGT's, one running E85 fuel and the other pure meth, not sure if the GT2 was on race gas. In the vid below, I do believe had they kept going the Modded 997TT's would eventually pull away. Still not too shabby.

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      05-30-2011, 02:11 PM   #76
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So a heavily modified M3 blows away a stock Ferrari....and this is impressive how?

Isn't that to be expected?
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      05-30-2011, 02:32 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tukluc View Post
So a heavily modified M3 blows away a stock Ferrari....and this is impressive how?

Isn't that to be expected?
You need to put it into the proper perspective, this isn't a F430, it's a very fast production car. A stock Ferrari 458 has ran high 10's low 11's and has trapped over 130MPH. ZR1's are trapping around 129-132, hope that helps clarify things a bit.

Here's one trapping 132MPH, DA was -1500', so it's more in the 128 range at a moderate track.



Here's arguably the best Z06 1/4 mile driver in the US running a 132 trap, same track as the 458 ran at, in -350 DA, excellent conditions.

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08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi

Last edited by DLSJ5; 05-30-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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      05-30-2011, 03:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Evoms makes some great stuff, very fast cars, excellent products, tuning, etc. Love that car and would love to run it, but would rather own one, haha.

Here's some runs with some cars that are in the same league mod wise and power wise that might give you an idea how they'd stack up against that GT2. Both the AWE and Proto 997TT's in the vid have upgraded VGT's, one running E85 fuel and the other pure meth, not sure if the GT2 was on race gas. In the vid below, I do believe had they kept going the Modded 997TT's would eventually pull away. Still not too shabby.

very nice! still can't believe how fast the M3 is just with a simple supercharger!
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      05-30-2011, 05:24 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
You need to put it into the proper perspective, this isn't a F430, it's a very fast production car. A stock Ferrari 458 has ran high 10's low 11's and has trapped over 130MPH. ZR1's are trapping around 129-132, hope that helps clarify things a bit.

Here's one trapping 132MPH, DA was -1500', so it's more in the 128 range at a moderate track.

Here's arguably the best Z06 1/4 mile driver in the US running a 132 trap, same track as the 458 ran at, in -350 DA, excellent conditions.
You missed my point completely...
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      05-30-2011, 05:31 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tukluc View Post
You missed my point completely...
What's your point exactly?
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      05-30-2011, 05:40 PM   #81
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What is so impressive about a modified BMW beating a "very fast production car"? Like I said, it should win just based on the modifications alone.

Just think you are comparing apples to oranges.
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      06-01-2011, 11:05 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I agree here...458 is not a supercar. A 911 turbo or turbo S are not supercars either. Neither is a GTR. But they all DO deliver supercar performance!
I think there are supercars like a GT3 RS, GT2 RS, 430 Scud, LP Lambos and then there are hypercars like the Veyron, Carrera GT, Enzo, 918 Spyder, etc.
Can you explain some of your choices?

The 918, about to be the Carrera GT replacement, definitely raises the bar - but the 997.2TT already is par/eclipses the carrera GT.

Similar situation with the 430 scud vs 458. The 430 scud is an upgraded 430. The 458 is the 430 replacement, newer and better : upgraded, you could say.

And while the GT3RS is nice as hell, it still has to contend with its nature.
Insides gutted, suspension upgraded, racing seats, wheel, etc.
Basically a factory ricer treatment to a 911.
(Note : I don't mean that in a negative way, It's just that it's the best comparison I can come up with. Basically, a very nicely modified 911.)
You could put proper tires in a 911TT, and depending on the situation, it's hard to decide which is faster - while the 911TT is easily nicer.

-scheherazade
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