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      05-04-2011, 11:41 AM   #45
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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It could produce a *peak* torque value like that, but instead BMW has chosen to give it a flatter torque curve for better driveability...
I have written a fair amount of flowery words about the current M3 powerplant, but the fact of the matter is, if BMW had simply matched the power and torque-per-liter numbers from the last U.S. - spec M3, it would be generating in the vicinity of 415 HP, with about 325 pound feet, available at 4900 rpm, same as the E46.

Nobody I know has bitched about any "peaky" nature of the E46 model, because in fact it enjoyed a very flat torque curve. Just not as flat as the current model. The E46 that graced our garage was a little flat at 1500 rpm (like the current model), but was happy at anything over 2000-2200, and joyous at 3K and up, also like the current model.

If the current M3 had that sort of proportional power and torque, it would be quicker on a drag strip or a race circuit, and it wouldn't lose anything to the current model in terms of low-end driveability.

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      05-04-2011, 12:15 PM   #46
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Nobody I know has bitched about any "peaky" nature of the E46 model
Make some new friends.

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because in fact it enjoyed a very flat torque curve. Just not as flat as the current model.
True.

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If the current M3 had that sort of proportional power and torque, it would be quicker on a drag strip or a race circuit, and it wouldn't lose anything to the current model in terms of low-end driveability.
Not sure I agree. You're just speculating, essentially second guessing countless hours of R&D from some very good engine designers. I'm not suggesting those people are infallible, nor do I know how well grounded your technical expertise is, but I can comment on the futility of the exercise.

Because it's all very academic isn't it - you don't own a current model M3 and complain about it's engine, I do and and don't.
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      05-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #47
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Make some new friends.
I suppose I should've said "Nobody I know who has automotive knowledge and experience..."

...since in actuality the E46 wasn't peaky at all.

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Not sure I agree.
What? You're saying you're not sure an M3 with more power and especially more torque in the typical on track operating range would be a quicker and faster car? Wow. I guess we can more or less figure out the depth of your automotive knowledge then, can't we.

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You're just speculating,
Yes.

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essentially second guessing countless hours of R&D from some very good engine designers.
Yes.

I'm on really solid ground, however. It would be child's play for BMW's engineers to match the power and torque-per-liter numbers from a previous (and mildly outdated) design. Since fuel economy obviously wasn't in play, the sky's the limit, power and torque-wise.

Yes, the breadth of the torque curve in the current engine is in fact spectacular from my point of view, but they could've sacrificed some of that for significantly higher numbers and a quicker car.

It in fact would be nice to watch the C63 driver at the light in the next lane mess with his radio to avoid facing you, instead of you messing with your radio.

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Because it's all very academic isn't it - you don't own a current model M3 and complain about it's engine, I do and and don't.
An E9X M3 isn't in my garage not because of its engine - about which I've written more flowery words of praise than you have - but because it's too big and fat in my opinion compared to the two previous models which have graced our garage. And of those, the E36 was my favorite, for the same reasoning.

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      05-04-2011, 03:02 PM   #48
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...since in actuality the E46 wasn't peaky at all.
Eh, opinions.

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What? You're saying you're not sure an M3 with more power and especially more torque in the typical on track operating range would be a quicker and faster car?
I'm saying I would take a flatter torque curve, at the expense of a higher peak value, any time, any day, including for track use.

I'm also saying that you make it a much bigger issue than it is.

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Wow. I guess we can more or less figure out the depth of your automotive knowledge then, can't we.
There's more of you? The more the merrier.

I don't claim any in depth automotive knowledge - at the most, an informed opinion. Many times I fail at the "informed" part. But I'm glad to see you care.

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It would be child's play for BMW's engineers to match the power and torque-per-liter numbers from a previous (and mildly outdated) design.
Sure. But then the torque curve would not be as flat, so they made the decision to go super-flat and that's what you are seeing in the S65.

Again, you may not like it, and bitch & moan at every opportunity, but if it doesn't bother an actual owner (me) who uses his car on and off the track, why would it bother you?

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but they could've sacrificed some of that for significantly higher numbers and a quicker car.
I don't think a peakier torque curve necessarily would make for a faster car. Either in a drag race, or on track. I'm also not hung up on numbers.

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It in fact would be nice to watch the C63 driver at the light in the next lane mess with his radio to avoid facing you, instead of you messing with your radio.
Oh please.

My last speed contest with a C63 was in the rain and on a racetrack. My M3 with completely worn down tires completely embarrassed my neighbor's C63, this despite him being the better driver. Other than that, when I see him on the morning school run we drive 25mph. We both fiddle with the radio.

I am quite satisfied with the performance of the M3, it's fast enough on and off the track. I also don't care if I end up "loosing" to a C63, Honda Odyssey or baby stroller. I am secure enough to understand the reason I'm driving the M3 (to have fun) and to simply give a thumbs up to anybody I end up having fun with.

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An E9X M3 isn't in my garage not because of its engine (...) but because it's too big and fat in my opinion
Well good thing you went with a C63, it's much lighter.
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      05-04-2011, 03:53 PM   #49
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Wow, that is right on par with the Ferrari 458 Italia I believe in terms of power per litre...

In response to the Cup Cars I think they are a bit over-rated. I've seen a few at Summit Point and they just look like a PAIN in the butt to deal with. They have to trailer them in, take forever to get setup, not to mention warmed up, and half the time the driver stalls the car trying to get it moving once off the trailer... All that and the few I saw weren't much faster than the ZR1 there (and he drove his home as if nothing happened after racing all day). But I guess some people are into all that If I wanted to go that fast though I'd just get an Atom at that point
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      05-04-2011, 05:24 PM   #50
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Am I missing something with this fiddling with the radio joke?
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      05-04-2011, 05:38 PM   #51
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Am I missing something with this fiddling with the radio joke?
As in the looser in a "street contest" is too embarrassed to look the winner in the eye and starts fiddling with the radio as if nothing happened.
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      05-04-2011, 10:32 PM   #52
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Limited production car. This will be the largest engine ever for the 911. Kinda makes this a "special car", and I think I speak for the majority when I correct you, nothing about this car, including the brakes are shit. This is a much different car than the F430, not really a logical comparison. Which one do you have?


I hate to split hairs but why isn't an F430 Scuderia a good comparison?
Both are track oriented sports cars.
I said logical. If you are going to compare the GT3 4.0 with a Ferrari, I would like to see it compared to a 430 CS personally. Even though the Ferrari is much more money, they are similar animals.
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      05-05-2011, 08:44 AM   #53
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I said logical. If you are going to compare the GT3 4.0 with a Ferrari, I would like to see it compared to a 430 CS personally. Even though the Ferrari is much more money, they are similar animals.
I see your point but I still think its a bit of hair splitting.
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      05-05-2011, 09:22 AM   #54
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Oh please.

My last speed contest with a C63 was in the rain and on a racetrack. My M3 with completely worn down tires completely embarrassed my neighbor's C63, this despite him being the better driver. Other than that, when I see him on the morning school run we drive 25mph. We both fiddle with the radio.

I am quite satisfied with the performance of the M3, it's fast enough on and off the track. I also don't care if I end up "loosing" to a C63, Honda Odyssey or baby stroller. I am secure enough to understand the reason I'm driving the M3 (to have fun) and to simply give a thumbs up to anybody I end up having fun with.


Well said ...
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      05-05-2011, 09:26 AM   #55
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Wow, that is right on par with the Ferrari 458 Italia I believe in terms of power per litre...

In response to the Cup Cars I think they are a bit over-rated. I've seen a few at Summit Point and they just look like a PAIN in the butt to deal with. They have to trailer them in, take forever to get setup, not to mention warmed up, and half the time the driver stalls the car trying to get it moving once off the trailer... All that and the few I saw weren't much faster than the ZR1 there (and he drove his home as if nothing happened after racing all day). But I guess some people are into all that If I wanted to go that fast though I'd just get an Atom at that point
Good points here!
It is nice to be able to drive home without a tailer. I would not need a tow vehicle for any other reason so I wanted to avoid this need. However when you start adding slicks even just R-comp slicks like the R6, it is getting more and more difficult to get by without a trailer. I cannot fit and carry the R-comp wheels in the RS like I could in the M3.
If i graduate to the "trailer group" I will get the Radical SR8 or this new Caterhem / Lola car. Honestly the shifter kart would be the best thing but no track around here. Shifter karts are very fast, relaively cheap and so much fun!!
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      05-05-2011, 09:32 AM   #56
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By the way if anyone interested, allocations are available right now for September build. You have to be quick, only 600 will be made, according to current to Porsche.
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      05-05-2011, 10:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
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I'm saying I would take a flatter torque curve, at the expense of a higher peak value, any time, any day, including for track use.
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Sure. But then the torque curve would not be as flat, so they made the decision to go super-flat and that's what you are seeing in the S65.
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Sure. But then the torque curve would not be as flat, so they made the decision to go super-flat and that's what you are seeing in the S65.
You've made yourself quite clear on this point, and in fact I agree with you in general - but I guarantee you the specific case I made in regard to the current M3 would result in a quicker and faster car at the track - with no ill effects in everyday driving.

Does it need to be quicker and faster? Not in my opinion. I'm simply making the case that a flat torque curve is not necessarily the ne plus ultra of engine design, and offered an example of how an arguably terrific engine could be even better.

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I'm also saying that you make it a much bigger issue than it is.
Not my intent at all, but perhaps I have. Between us, we certainly have made it an issue.

On the tech side, I have written about how I never noticed any sort of low-end "soft" spot in my initial test drive. I had to deliberately test for it. Others have expressed their dissatisfaction with the low end performance of this motor, but for me, not a significant issue. Compared with a C63, it's a little soft at the low end, but the aggressive gearing means driving around that "issue" is pretty much automatic on the driver's part.


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Again, you may not like it, and bitch & moan at every opportunity, but if it doesn't bother an actual owner (me) who uses his car on and off the track, why would it bother you?
"...bitch & moan at every opportunity..."?

Again, I'm quite sure I've written more flowery words of praise in regard to this engine than you have, and have said on a number of occasions that's it's a terrific powerplant - in an arguably terrific car.

A few months back, I wrote an in-depth comparison between these vehicles ("The Snake", and "The Mongoose"), listing the strong and weaker points of the cars in my experience and opinion. The upshot was that they're both terrific, and if I were offered my choice, I'd pick the M3 based on the fact that I haven't matured enough to enjoy driving an automatic.

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Well good thing you went with a C63, it's much lighter.
I'm guessing either a reading or memory problem on your part. As I've mentioned more than once, this is my son's car. I've messed with it while he was away in Afghanistan, under his direction with my advice, and it was a genuine pleasure to do so. Now he's back, and as I type this, he's just driven off, touring the country on a five week leave before reporting back in as XO of a combined Navy/Air Force base outside of Fort Worth.

I've also previously mentioned that I admire both the C63 and M3, but neither fills me with lust. Just not my type of car. The C63 is automatic only, and I admit I am saddled with prejudice in regard to the current M3 because of my previous experience with the last two that have graced our garage. I found that the 2004 E46 was a better car than the 1995 E36 in nearly every way, but because of size and weight, it just wasn't as much fun to drive.

Because of the engine, the current model is as much fun to drive as the E46, but still, I can feel the size and heft, both of which just bother me.

YMMV. Plenty of people think the current car is as good as it gets in today's motoring venue, and I don't think they're wrong. It just that I can see how the car could be better, and have mentioned how.

Fanboys think that's bitching and moaning.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 05-05-2011 at 11:04 AM.
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      05-05-2011, 11:11 AM   #58
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Between us, we certainly have made it an issue. (...) I'm guessing either a reading or memory problem on your part.
No flowery words of praise this time around...
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      05-05-2011, 03:14 PM   #59
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^^^ soiled myself!
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      05-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #60
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If only I had 200k lying around....
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      05-06-2011, 12:07 AM   #61
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By the way if anyone interested, allocations are available right now for September build. You have to be quick, only 600 will be made, according to current to Porsche.

‎911 GT3 RS 4.0 LE $185,000

Exterior Color Carrara White B4 $0
Interior Color Black Standard Leather Seats B28 $0
Exterior
Headlight Cleaner Cover in Exterior Color XUB $295
Wheels painted in GT Silver Metallic 347 $0
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3-point belt Black 555 $0
Sport Bucket Seats P03 $0
Interior Alcantara
Lid of Storage Bin in Alcantara(R) with Model Logo XLG $490
Audio and Communications
Bluetooth Hands-Free Phone Interface 619 $0
Universal Audio Interface 870 $0
Destination Charge: $950
Total Price* $186,735

This is of course without dealer mark-up

600 units worldwide.....only 148 will come to US shores

I heard Beverly Hills Porsche is only getting 3
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      05-06-2011, 01:34 PM   #62
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I keep telling myself "you don't want that car, bad car, forget it". But I called my dealer about it.???
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      05-07-2011, 10:23 AM   #63
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Wow, the penis envy... ahem I mean Porsche envy is strong in this thread. If cannot afford one, must hate... must hate... Who could have guessed this about M3 owners?
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      05-07-2011, 01:00 PM   #64
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Wow, the penis envy... ahem I mean Porsche envy is strong in this thread. If cannot afford one, must hate... must hate... Who could have guessed this about M3 owners?
I would love to own one and envy anyone that does...it's a great car. What's wrong with that?
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You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      05-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #65
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Wow, the penis envy... ahem I mean Porsche envy is strong in this thread. If cannot afford one, must hate... must hate... Who could have guessed this about M3 owners?
Interesting, I do not think this is the conclusion of the thread at all. I think most of people here appreciate the 4.0 RS.
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      05-09-2011, 02:22 AM   #66
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you can forget about getting this car, they are all sold out. No allocations left anywhere from what Ive heard.
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