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      04-29-2011, 05:16 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdy330 View Post
$15,000 US for an engine is crazy!!!
A new M3 engine costs 36.1k USD where z00m lives.
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      04-29-2011, 05:18 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo View Post
A new M3 engine costs 36.1k USD where z00m lives.
WTF...I thought it cost 20K in the US? Are you serious? That cannot make any sense. You can probably buy a used M3 for 36.1K now.
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      04-29-2011, 10:44 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by knifegun View Post
WTF...I thought it cost 20K in the US? Are you serious? That cannot make any sense. You can probably buy a used M3 for 36.1K now.
some people are paying about 150K usd (sometimes more) for m3s in their country, so im not surprised that the motors would be more too. americans have it pretty damn good.
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      04-30-2011, 03:34 AM   #92
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Quote:
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some people are paying about 150K usd (sometimes more) for m3s in their country, so im not surprised that the motors would be more too. americans have it pretty damn good.
+1

And currency exchange rates also play a significant role when calculating prices in USD.
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      04-30-2011, 06:35 AM   #93
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Quote:
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some people are paying about 150K usd (sometimes more) for m3s in their country, so im not surprised that the motors would be more too. americans have it pretty damn good.
In some of the Scandinavian countries the M3 costs $250,000.
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      04-30-2011, 08:58 AM   #94
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LOL "no mods.."

never change the exhaust on a modern car with computer controlled ignition without adjusting the timing. Of course _you_ can't adjust the timing! Now the engine is running ignition advance that's way too high for the new exhaust. I bet if you tear down that engine there will be pits all over the pistons and heads from the detonation.
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      04-30-2011, 09:13 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexx View Post
LOL "no mods.."

never change the exhaust on a modern car with computer controlled ignition without adjusting the timing. Of course _you_ can't adjust the timing! Now the engine is running ignition advance that's way too high for the new exhaust. I bet if you tear down that engine there will be pits all over the pistons and heads from the detonation.
You are a FOOL if you think this engine management, and many others, can't adjust fuel and timing for a simple exhaust mod - catback and 2nd cat delete.
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      04-30-2011, 09:19 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
You are a FOOL if you think this engine management, and many others, can't adjust fuel and timing for a simple exhaust mod - catback and 2nd cat delete.
LOL yeah right. It tries to adjust after the knock sensors light up like christmas trees. It backs off, and tries again, and again, and again, and again to achieve the timing it was programmed for. That's why the engine isn't destroyed almost immediately.

What do you think aftermarket "software" is doing? LOL. Now you're relying on some random guy to get it right instead of a team of engineers at BMW. Judging from the maps I've seen in person, they get it wrong - a lot.
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      04-30-2011, 09:27 AM   #97
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yeah, i'm no automotive expert but i don't see how just an exhaust system can blow an engine

do you have any info that can back this up? would love to learn more about it
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      04-30-2011, 09:52 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexx View Post
LOL yeah right. It tries to adjust after the knock sensors light up like christmas trees. It backs off, and tries again, and again, and again, and again to achieve the timing it was programmed for. That's why the engine isn't destroyed almost immediately.

What do you think aftermarket "software" is doing? LOL. Now you're relying on some random guy to get it right instead of a team of engineers at BMW. Judging from the maps I've seen in person, they get it wrong - a lot.
If your understanding were true, then the programming would never safely adjust between 91-100 octane either - as an example. How do you explain that people can run 91 octane or 93? How do you explain that they will gain power when higher octane 95+ is run? How can BMW, gasp, change the catback and add power with no programming? The ecu has trims and tuning ability for a reason.

I don't use aftermarket software because IMO it isn't a must unless you have deleted the primary cats.
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      04-30-2011, 09:56 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 View Post
i don't see how just an exhaust system can blow an engine
It can't. Such statement the "expert" made is nonsense. ECU adapts ignition constantly, depending on various factors (temperature, humidity, load, etc.). So an aftermarket catback just can't harm your engine.

Oh, and the aftermarket aftermarket software that the "expert" mentioned usually is off the shelf for cars with slightly different mods. In other words usually it is not custom tuned to the mods of the specific vehicle. But it also adapts ignition to a certain level.
If an aftermarket software is too aggressive for the mods, then it results in knocking and can harm your engine.
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Last edited by edo; 04-30-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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      04-30-2011, 10:14 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo View Post
It can't. Such statement the "expert" made is nonsense. ECU adapts ignition constantly, depending on various factors (temperature, humidity, load, etc.). So an aftermarket catback just can't harm your engine.
yeah thats what i thought but wasn't 100% sure, thanks for clarifying

btw 600 Mb down and 300 Mb up... WTF??? where are you getting this and how much are you paying?!?
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      04-30-2011, 10:24 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 View Post
btw 600 Mb down and 300 Mb up... WTF??? where are you getting this and how much are you paying?!?
In Lithuania. Lithuania is the first country in Europe in FTTH developement (according to FTTH Council Europe). And in the top 6 in the world, if I remember correctly.
I don't pay anything, the speed is in my work place The highest speed you can get at home is 300/300, costs ~33USD/month.
Sorry for the OT.

BTW, back on topic. I have the video in which I recorded when the engine failed. However, I still haven't got permission of z00m to post it.
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      04-30-2011, 10:56 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo View Post
It can't. Such statement the "expert" made is nonsense. ECU adapts ignition constantly, depending on various factors (temperature, humidity, load, etc.). So an aftermarket catback just can't harm your engine.

Oh, and the aftermarket aftermarket software that the "expert" mentioned usually is off the shelf for cars with slightly different mods. In other words usually it is not custom tuned to the mods of the specific vehicle. But it also adapts ignition to a certain level.
If an aftermarket software is too aggressive for the mods, then it results in knocking and can harm your engine.
The computer only adjusts the timing in response to knock. The design tolerances are for fuel, not what some monkey might do to their well engineered system. Changing anything in the exhaust means immediately the "correct" timing advance for any given RPM or load point has changed. Unfortunately, freer flowing exhaust means better exhaust evacuation from the cylinder, which means the optimal timing point is retarded compared to it's previous location. This means the first guess by the computer is much too advanced. What happens when you run too much timing? RIGHT.

You have to be a scientist and a computer engineer to understand how it really works, there is no explanation that will be satisfactory for any layman, but if you're curious as to how these things work: http://forums.openecu.org/
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      04-30-2011, 07:50 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexx View Post
The computer only adjusts the timing in response to knock. The design tolerances are for fuel, not what some monkey might do to their well engineered system. Changing[/b]anything[/b] in the exhaust means immediately the "correct" timing advance for any given RPM or load point has changed. Unfortunately, freer flowing exhaust means better exhaust evacuation from the cylinder, which means the optimal timing point is retarded compared to it's previous location. This means the first guess by the computer is much too advanced. What happens when you run too much timing? RIGHT.
Better call BMW and tell them to recall their performance exhausts. Timing adjustments and fueling adjustments are a normal fact of life with this, and other, modern ECUs. Some handle it far better than others. The same adjustments must be made at altitude and when fuel quality changes. None of these adjustments will put the engine in as dramatic a danger as you would have people believe. Although getting a crappy tank of gas is never good.

Quote:
You have to be a scientist and a computer engineer to understand how it really works, there is no explanation that will be satisfactory for any layman, but if you're curious as to how these things work: http://forums.openecu.org/
People don't need to be able to reverse engineer an ECU to understand how one works. Openecu is a great resource, but what do you actually know about this ecu and engine? At the time of it's release, it was the most powerful processing ecu in the world. So you are sadly mistaken if you think it is the same as a Subaru legacy ecu from 6 years prior; or even one from 2011.

You are also stating that many respected tuners on this board are committing fraud by lying to their customers in stating that these exhausts keep the engine within acceptable limits. They are concealing and/or falsifying data. Your statements also conflict with various respected members as well as posted data. But, by all means, continue to scare people out of modifying their exhausts.
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      04-30-2011, 08:04 PM   #104
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Would a bad bearing cause a piston to go through the block?
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      04-30-2011, 09:20 PM   #105
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To the OP: WHAT DID BMW SAY WAS THE CAUSE OF THE PISTON THROUGH THE BLOCK??
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      05-01-2011, 01:07 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
To the OP: WHAT DID BMW SAY WAS THE CAUSE OF THE PISTON THROUGH THE BLOCK??
+1

And it's not harmful to the car if you don't change your timing maps with the addition of a higher performance exhaust system.
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      05-01-2011, 10:59 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Better call BMW and tell them to recall their performance exhausts. Timing adjustments and fueling adjustments are a normal fact of life with this, and other, modern ECUs. Some handle it far better than others. The same adjustments must be made at altitude and when fuel quality changes. None of these adjustments will put the engine in as dramatic a danger as you would have people believe. Although getting a crappy tank of gas is never good.
"up to 3 ft/lbs and 6 hp on select models" whoop-ti-doo.. Might as well fart while you're on the accelerator.

Quote:
People don't need to be able to reverse engineer an ECU to understand how one works. Openecu is a great resource, but what do you actually know about this ecu and engine? At the time of it's release, it was the most powerful processing ecu in the world. So you are sadly mistaken if you think it is the same as a Subaru legacy ecu from 6 years prior; or even one from 2011.
right right, magic BMW fairy dust makes engines and computer control, and of course physics itself work differently. The Subaru ECU's have a lot of shortfalls, all known compromises to save cost, the _right_ thing to do still isn't hasn't changed. 8 knock sensors > 1 for sure. However the GT-R is running the same line denso ECU, as are many other brands of car. You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that car is not state-of-the-art. My concern would be greater for BMW's because the hacker community is much smaller or non-existent. Hell sometimes you find dirty laundry in the OEM maps/code.

Quote:
You are also stating that many respected tuners on this board are committing fraud by lying to their customers in stating that these exhausts keep the engine within acceptable limits. They are concealing and/or falsifying data. Your statements also conflict with various respected members as well as posted data. But, by all means, continue to scare people out of modifying their exhausts.
Ignorance is bliss. There's at least one exhaust vendor out there who's supposed dyno plot doesn't even have horsepower and torque cross at 5252. I just LOL'd and moved along. I wouldn't put blind faith for my engine in any vendor unless they full warrantied the engine for at least 100k.
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      05-01-2011, 11:29 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexx View Post
"up to 3 ft/lbs and 6 hp on select models" whoop-ti-doo.. Might as well fart while you're on the accelerator.
You are the one that said you can't change any exhaust components without making the car detonate constantly trying to hit a specific map value. Help me understand how it can handle the muffler change but not the 2nd cat delete. You know since it's a fact as you have clearly stated.

Quote:
right right, magic BMW fairy dust makes engines and computer control, and of course physics itself work differently. The Subaru ECU's have a lot of shortfalls, all known compromises to save cost, the _right_ thing to do still isn't hasn't changed. 8 knock sensors > 1 for sure. However the GT-R is running the same line denso ECU, as are many other brands of car. You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that car is not state-of-the-art. My concern would be greater for BMW's because the hacker community is much smaller or non-existent. Hell sometimes you find dirty laundry in the OEM maps/code.
So the answer is that you have zero experience with the programming on the m3. Thanks for clarifying. I will look into this fairy dust to see if BMW does in fact possess it. I now understand that it is the crux of your argument.

Quote:
Ignorance is bliss. There's at least one exhaust vendor out there who's supposed dyno plot doesn't even have horsepower and torque cross at 5252. I just LOL'd and moved along. I wouldn't put blind faith for my engine in any vendor unless they full warrantied the engine for at least 100k.
Ignorance is bliss - so true. However, how do you explain a tuner stating that the ECU can adjust when he has everything to gain by telling people the exact opposite? Sure there is manipulation of dynos and far less transparency here than with the Subaru community, but that has really zero to do with this argument. The people with hands on experience here say you are wrong, and you have yet to offer any evidence to the contrary.
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      05-02-2011, 08:31 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z00m View Post
So after some time new engine and new clutch is on the way. In two weeks should be back in M again.
BMW dealer made 50% discount on new engine. So i guess is not the win in this situacion,but not the worst becouse the car was out of warranty. And this discount is solidarity between dealer and me. BMW in germany did nothing to this. They just said it's out of warranty and did'nt even properly explained what caused that engine failure.
Engine from ebay with no garanties stands about the same price as new one with 50% off from dealer.
The new clutch is like free of charge for me. I insisted coz don't want that chain effect

Anyways can't wait to get back to M, and maybe '11 engine will be running smoother
Definitely not as bad as it could have been! Also, with a new engine your car might be worth a bit more if/when you go to sell it. Hopefully you can recoup some of that cost. I know I would pay a bit more for a used M3 if I knew it had a newer engine in it.
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      05-02-2011, 08:33 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexx View Post
LOL "no mods.."

never change the exhaust on a modern car with computer controlled ignition without adjusting the timing. Of course _you_ can't adjust the timing! Now the engine is running ignition advance that's way too high for the new exhaust. I bet if you tear down that engine there will be pits all over the pistons and heads from the detonation.
Does that mean BMW adjusts the timing for cars equipped with the M exhaust?
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