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      02-12-2011, 12:48 AM   #89
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During my first session with DSC off, I spun out and created a 5 figure repair bill.

So, don't turn DSC/MDM off just because the M3Post people tell you to. Ask yourself if you are ready for it and if learning how to drive at a more advanced level is worth totaling your car.

Of course, there are smart ways to mitigate "the ifs in life", such as learning to drive on a skip pad, or driving DSC off on tracks/part of tracks with safe run offs, or just buy track insurance...

...which is what I did.
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      02-12-2011, 06:33 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
During my first session with DSC off, I spun out and created a 5 figure repair bill.

So, don't turn DSC/MDM off just because the M3Post people tell you to. Ask yourself if you are ready for it and if learning how to drive at a more advanced level is worth totaling your car.

Of course, there are smart ways to mitigate "the ifs in life", such as learning to drive on a skip pad, or driving DSC off on tracks/part of tracks with safe run offs, or just buy track insurance...

...which is what I did.


this is a great post from you!

For my experience the it' better to drive with mdm until we are totally capable to feel our car. When we decide to turn off DSC it's better to drive slower and increse speed and limit gradually.

ps sorry for my english
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      02-12-2011, 09:33 AM   #91
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I dunno about that. If you are not in a beginner run group and worried about learn the basic cadence, vision, and the mechanics of a corner, MDM is just going to hold back your learning of car control. I mean sensing the car starting to loose grip, then having to do something about it. It can mask very silly mistakes long before you sense they are going to occur, and the newer systems actually make it seem like it's OK to make silly moves.

Tooooo many times I've been in cars with students in advanced run groups who are just hauling ass and relying on stability control and not even knowing it. Had a guy in a white group (advanced down here in texas) just the other weekend.. in a GTR with 700HP. His driving was a trainwreck. Fast in the straights, and then the car drove itself around the corner - he would brake really really late, too late in fact, then off the gas (totally drop throttle) and try to struggle to the apex, which was always never happening, then the car wrestled with itself until trackout where he then stomped on the gas. He was very surprised when I told him he had a lot of issues, his response was "I'm faster than all these other cars"....true.... It may help with fear, but those guys are really stunting their own growth.

Just slow down, keep street tires on the car, get insurance, and learn how to manage the car. It's not a race (I keep telling myself). Once you learn how to truly manage a car on the edge of traction everywhere on the track, it's a beautiful thing and you will be far far happier and proud of yourself. When I first started learning how to drive, all I wanted to be was the fastest guy out there...didn't really care about improving my skills. I started (E46M3) running r-comps early, put motons and brembos, headers, lap times, tunning.....all in lower run groups. It took me a while to become a good driver with that attitude. The only things that really helped me make big leaps were schroth harnesses, data acquisition, driving on wet tracks, putting an instructor who knew what he was talking about in the right seat, and driving the occasional race car.

Last edited by jml; 02-12-2011 at 09:40 AM.
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      02-12-2011, 09:41 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricob View Post
For my experience the it' better to drive with mdm until we are totally capable to feel our car.
DSC won't allow you truly feel what your car is doing. jml says it well.
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Last edited by consolidated; 02-14-2011 at 03:49 PM. Reason: DSC for DCT
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      02-12-2011, 09:51 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I dunno about that. If you are not in a beginner run group and worried about learn the basic cadence, vision, and the mechanics of a corner, MDM is just going to hold back your learning of car control. I mean sensing the car starting to loose grip, then having to do something about it. It can mask very silly mistakes long before you sense they are going to occur, and the newer systems actually make it seem like it's OK to make silly moves.

Tooooo many times I've been in cars with students in advanced run groups who are just hauling ass and relying on stability control and not even knowing it. Had a guy in a white group (advanced down here in texas) just the other weekend.. in a GTR with 700HP. His driving was a trainwreck. Fast in the straights, and then the car drove itself around the corner - he would brake really really late, too late in fact, then off the gas (totally drop throttle) and try to struggle to the apex, which was always never happening, then the car wrestled with itself until trackout where he then stomped on the gas. He was very surprised when I told him he had a lot of issues, his response was "I'm faster than all these other cars"....true.... It may help with fear, but those guys are really stunting their own growth.

Just slow down, keep street tires on the car, get insurance, and learn how to manage the car. It's not a race (I keep telling myself). Once you learn how to truly manage a car on the edge of traction everywhere on the track, it's a beautiful thing and you will be far far happier and proud of yourself. When I first started learning how to drive, all I wanted to be was the fastest guy out there...didn't really care about improving my skills. I started (E46M3) running r-comps early, put motons and brembos, headers, lap times, tunning.....all in lower run groups. It took me a while to become a good driver with that attitude. The only things that really helped me make big leaps were schroth harnesses, data acquisition, driving on wet tracks, putting an instructor who knew what he was talking about in the right seat, and driving the occasional race car.
Great post.I could not agree more!
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      02-12-2011, 09:55 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated View Post
DSC won't allow you truly feel what your car is doing. jml says it well.
Fixed it for you! I make the same mistake all the time, damn acronyms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Great post.I could not agree more!
+1 Nicely put.
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      02-12-2011, 11:23 AM   #95
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Wow, there's some great wisdom in these last few posts.

Let me add my 2 cents. Much of the discussion has been that when MDM intervenes that it's some sort of problem (i.e. the car is interfering) or that it's always slowing you down. What I've found that if you have MDM intervening then try a different line or change your throttle input and see if this makes a difference. One month ago, at a BMW Perf Center track event at CMP, I noticed MDM coming on, I couldn't feel it but the light was blinking, in the middle of a pretty fast 90-100 mph corner (noticed that 2 or 3 times). Next time around I adjusted my line a bit, kept same throttle input and presto, gained another 3 mph or so on corner exit and no blinking MDM activation.

So sometimes it really takes subtle adjustments it takes to stop the MDM from activating. I've also found that sometimes just being a little bit slower on applying the throttle on corner exit can make the difference between MDM coming on or not. Keep in mind if you're really egregious then the system is also going to cut power if the stability control doesn't feel it's done enough.

There are exceptions and for autocross, particularly if it's a tight course, then it's DSC off.
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      02-12-2011, 06:32 PM   #96
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Great post, jml.

My rule is MDM on tracks with walls too close and all off on tracks with decent run offs. I think it's a good idea for most intermediate drivers.

I've been off just twice, both times with MDM off, and both times it was not even close to doing any damage, mostly because I appropriately chose the time and circumstances to test the limits (slower track, no walls and no cars immediately close to me).

MDM does help avoid issues, but when it takes over, corrections are not working as expected, which slows you down at best, and I can see it being dangerous.
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      02-13-2011, 11:51 PM   #97
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MDM is a great mix, but it would sometimes not allow me to do what I wanted to do... though it has saved me enough times :P

everything off... the e93 M3 is really tail happy
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      02-14-2011, 03:32 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated View Post
DCT won't allow you truly feel what your car is doing. jml says it well.
DCT not but MDM a little bit more
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      03-28-2011, 04:24 PM   #99
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I recently went to a new track, Chuckwalla, with BMW CCA. It was a two day event and the first day I ran with MDM, it didn't activate that much minus coming out of a carousel turn. But towards the end of the day, if felt I was using it as a crutch and was enabling me subconsciously drive sloppy. Next day I turned it off and felt I drove a lot cleaner and had no issues. I have had a decent amount of track experience so would recommend it for the beginner or intermediate driver though.
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      03-28-2011, 04:30 PM   #100
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MDM is safe if you're not sure what you're doing behind the wheel and you're going for the fastest lap vs. kicking the backend out with traction off and having fun.

I would say at least half of the accidents that happen on the track are because the drivers too confident and loses control of the car. MDM makes sure this ^ doesn't happen.

when I have MDM on I get faster laps just because I can keep on the throttle and let the computer work its magic, but usually keep it off..It's all about how much experience you have I guess.
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      03-28-2011, 04:31 PM   #101
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MDM is a great mix, but it would sometimes not allow me to do what I wanted to do... though it has saved me enough times :P

everything off... the e93 M3 is really tail happy
^
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      03-29-2011, 07:58 AM   #102
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My experience is this: MDM will save you from the massive repair bill that rldzhao experienced, but I also agree that DSC off is the only way to truly advance in car control skills.

I have an E46 M3 that is race prepped. I drive that car w/ DSC off exclusively. I have spun off the track, but I have been lucky enough to have spared the car from any damage. I drove it at Watkins Glen w/ the BMW CCA one weekend in the E46 and the very next weekend w/ NASA in the E92 (I didn't have rain tires for the E46 and it was forecasted). It was the first time I tracked the E92 in literally 1 year. It was amazing not just the difference in the two cars but the difference in my skill level from the last time I drove the car. I decided to drive the car in MDM instead of DSC off because I just didn't want to risk the car any more than I had to. I know that I could have gone faster w/ DSC off, but I didn't have to "save" the car on two instances where the back end would have came out. I was able to straighten the wheel and the system straightened the car out. If DSC was off, I may or may not have saved the car.

Keep this in mind: if you want to go from MDM to DSC off, just back it off in corners where there are big guardrails/tirewalls nearby. Turns where there is a lot of runoff work much better just in case things go wrong. I am not advocating unsafe driving because the last thing you want to do is spin across the track and get t-boned by another driver, but you really need to manage your risk. If I had more experience w/ my E92 on track I would drive w/ DSC off and be a little more careful as the MDM started making me lazy.
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      04-01-2011, 06:51 PM   #103
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Last year was my first in a car and went to about 7 events, including road America Drove the entire time with everything on as I'm not going to crash my new ride, but that being said the last few go arounds really felt DSC kicking in on corner exit quite a bit, was really trying to let the car trackout with some speed and the computer kept kicking in, but that being said, who cares! I felt much safer, and thus had a ton of fun. Have about 20 events this year and will probably move to MDM this year but that's it, and then maybe next year go DSC completely off. Patience is definitely a virtue, especially when it's the car you drive home. Computers on/off doesn't really matter, all that matters is the attitude of the driver, be a student not the master and you'll be fine
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      04-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #104
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WOW impressed you already have 20 events signed up I only went that one time last year but plan on going out with the hubbie him in the Viper...Joliet is already sold out for may
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      04-03-2011, 09:20 PM   #105
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hopefully see you out there this year, fun starts tomorrow
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      04-25-2011, 10:12 PM   #106
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There are lots of guys coding their cars to do stuff like remotely close windows etc... has anyone found the parameter to increase the slip angle before mdm kicks in?
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      04-27-2011, 10:23 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
During my first session with DSC off, I spun out and created a 5 figure repair bill.

So, don't turn DSC/MDM off just because the M3Post people tell you to. Ask yourself if you are ready for it and if learning how to drive at a more advanced level is worth totaling your car.

Of course, there are smart ways to mitigate "the ifs in life", such as learning to drive on a skip pad, or driving DSC off on tracks/part of tracks with safe run offs, or just buy track insurance...

...which is what I did.
I have read this entire thread, and are a track novice. I have been to a few professional schools, but no one is paying me to drive for them, and in my world, if your not being paid, you're an amateur which to me pretty much means novice.

With my experience on the table I have to make one point: so many people love to claim they are instructors, and I believe each one of them is an instructor, but at what level is my question? They all throw out fancy credentials (no offense intended), but I know some pro-hockey coaches who still can't hold a job in the NHL for very long and flat out (I don't have the heart to tell them) just aren't as good as they think they are.

For me, I try to find the best instructor I can find at HPDEs and driving schools and beg them to ride with me THE WHOLE TIME. Why? Because I ain't a pro, and the only way to learn is TO LEARN. I always request the instructor do a hot lap with me in THE PASSENGER SEAT so that I can watch and FEEL what a good lap, with a controlled car feels like. I never fail to learn something new, no matter how insignificant that new info may seem to some.

With all do respect to Lucid and a bunch of others whose opinions I GREATLY RESPECT, I think turning off the nannies with a car that doubles as your DD is crazy. If you can afford a huge repair bill, you can afford a used Mazda 3 modded a bit for the track or a use e46///M modded for the track. I think "what is the point of taking on the risk when this is not the way you make a living? What about the loved ones who have to deal with the stress if something happens to you?

To equate it on a level more might understand, I'm a hardcore skier, and without sounding cocky, I should have gone pro, but never considered it more than a hobby, didn't want to spend my life on the slopes. But I love it, and I'm damn, damn good it. But, I still don't go off "trail" or "moutain".....why? Not because I can't handle it, but because out of a hundred times, one of those times I'm going to make a mistake or something out of my control will happen......because I'm human and that is life. Am I risk adverse? Hellllll noooooo. Just ask my friends who think I'm nuts, but I realize I have a wife at home, siblings and friends and my employees who count on me being there Monday morning, not at an ICU. So I believe in calculated risk......and not taking it for the sake of taking it.

Don't care how good I am, the best skis are better than me and the best and fastest cars are better than me, that is just a fact of life. So until I get paid, the nannies stay on unless I'm driving someone else's car and there are no walls or places to roll the car a few times.

But that is just my OPINION, and you know what they say about those....

Cheers,
e46e92
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Last edited by e46e92love; 04-27-2011 at 10:31 AM.
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      04-27-2011, 06:24 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
I have read this entire thread, and are a track novice. I have been to a few professional schools, but no one is paying me to drive for them, and in my world, if your not being paid, you're an amateur which to me pretty much means novice.

With my experience on the table I have to make one point: so many people love to claim they are instructors, and I believe each one of them is an instructor, but at what level is my question? They all throw out fancy credentials (no offense intended), but I know some pro-hockey coaches who still can't hold a job in the NHL for very long and flat out (I don't have the heart to tell them) just aren't as good as they think they are.

For me, I try to find the best instructor I can find at HPDEs and driving schools and beg them to ride with me THE WHOLE TIME. Why? Because I ain't a pro, and the only way to learn is TO LEARN. I always request the instructor do a hot lap with me in THE PASSENGER SEAT so that I can watch and FEEL what a good lap, with a controlled car feels like. I never fail to learn something new, no matter how insignificant that new info may seem to some.

With all do respect to Lucid and a bunch of others whose opinions I GREATLY RESPECT, I think turning off the nannies with a car that doubles as your DD is crazy. If you can afford a huge repair bill, you can afford a used Mazda 3 modded a bit for the track or a use e46///M modded for the track. I think "what is the point of taking on the risk when this is not the way you make a living? What about the loved ones who have to deal with the stress if something happens to you?

To equate it on a level more might understand, I'm a hardcore skier, and without sounding cocky, I should have gone pro, but never considered it more than a hobby, didn't want to spend my life on the slopes. But I love it, and I'm damn, damn good it. But, I still don't go off "trail" or "moutain".....why? Not because I can't handle it, but because out of a hundred times, one of those times I'm going to make a mistake or something out of my control will happen......because I'm human and that is life. Am I risk adverse? Hellllll noooooo. Just ask my friends who think I'm nuts, but I realize I have a wife at home, siblings and friends and my employees who count on me being there Monday morning, not at an ICU. So I believe in calculated risk......and not taking it for the sake of taking it.

Don't care how good I am, the best skis are better than me and the best and fastest cars are better than me, that is just a fact of life. So until I get paid, the nannies stay on unless I'm driving someone else's car and there are no walls or places to roll the car a few times.

But that is just my OPINION, and you know what they say about those....

Cheers,
e46e92
The old saying is "If you can't afford to lose it, don' take it out on the track."

Or buy insurance for that weekend. Start with autocross to learn DSC off car control at lower speeds. Build your way up. This E92/E90 is pretty easy to control...
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      06-26-2013, 09:33 AM   #109
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I use MDM. I am sure that I am driving sloppy because it is a crutch but I am having fun and I am getting faster. When the car is worth much less or there is 300 feet of run off I will turn off traction.
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      06-26-2013, 09:54 AM   #110
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My thoughts are, if your tracking your daily driver and the car has MDM then use it. If your driving a car that does not have it, then don't. It will take many many track days to get fully comfortable with everything off in a car that has 400HP. If you want to learn how to drive at speed with a car that does not have TC etc I should suggest starting in a car like a Miata. A lot less HP but a GREAT learning tool, and fun. Tech in cars is here to stay why not learn how to have it make you faster.
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