E9x M3 LAP TIMES (Road Course)

[RickyBobby]

Originally Posted by mastek

Power to weight is one thing - carrying speed through corners can only be accomplished through LESS weight.
So a lighter car with the same power-to-weight ratio will get a better lap time then a heavier car with the same power-to-weight ratio.
Spec Miatas can be 2000 or 2300 lbs. It doesn't matter to my point... you can't compare this to a 3800 lbs car

A susepnsion modded e46m3 is faster around most any road course then a same suspension modded e9xm3 (except a 12 mile variable like the Nordschleife)

My OE e90m3 was at 3630 without fuel and driver = so that's OVER 3800 lbs. STOCK
I modded my car with what's in the sig down to 3450 and I can tell you that 200 lbs in this car, with this kind of inertia, on these road courses, makes only 1-2 seconds difference in lap times.
So I will repeat, NO ONE has done under 1.50 with an OE e9xm3 at Infineon/Sears Point with the full carousel. And no one will (unless they strip the car to a race car).

Since you have one - and you have w2w experience - what kind of lap times have you acieved with yur e9xm3?

Not sure why you keep saying that an e90 M3 is slower than miata's and prev gen M3's. A good time for a spec miata around infineon is 1:56, which I've done in my bone stock M3 with only NT01's. I'm not arguing that weight is the enemy, but our cars counter the weight of the miata with bigger tires and gobs more HP.

[RickyBobby]

Originally Posted by mastek

Do you have a racing line over the track diagram of that lap?
I dont think NASA runs anything but full carousel - so i assume thats what it was right?

If all this is correct - then coilovers on this car are worth alot over the EDC shocks.
I ran a 1:58 (only 2 sessions) with a 3450lbs + Fuel + Driver = 3750lbs - R1 265/285 - AP BBK w Mintex FR3 and FR4 (your Raybestos are better) - 4.10 FDR w 2 Clutch Ramps - and the GC Coil Kit using 440/600 springs on OE EDC shocks (which i believe are the weakest link in this setup).
I had maybe a 1:56 in it since this was my 1st time there.
Your 1:53 puts a 3 second theoretical "shock" advantage over the EDC shocks (which makes sense)

Congrats on a great lap at 1:53
Now lets see those lines on that track diagram, ya
And i assume the ASTs are double adjustable?

Lot's of theory and bench racing here. I think the driver also plays a big part in the equation too. For example Randy Pobst did a 1:42 at laguna with a bone stock car in a car and driver comparo; 3 seconds faster than you did in your modded car on semi-slicks. http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

Mastek, a few questions for you:
Do you not like your AP's with Mintex FR3's?? I spoke with AP in great length about the Mintex FR3's earlier this year when I was contemplating a BBK and they said that they are better than my Raybestos st 43's and more comparabile to the new raybestos st 47's. Curious why you think my setup was faster..

What are the specs on your LSD? What you mean by 2 clutch ramps? Do you mean 2 clutches with variable ramp? What is the lockup and ramp angle? I really hate the M differential on track and wish a proper lsd were in the cards for me.

Your car must feel great with the removal of 200lbs.

Originally Posted by mastek

I suppose with ur AST c/o kit and those better pads (with the rest of my mods and weight loss) - i can imagine a 1:51
But not the sub 1:50 you claimed possible with this car earlier (unless you drop to 3300 lbs wet and a pro driver)

I still stand by my statement that there is a sub 1:50 in my car . And I have no plans to do any more mods.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

Not sure why you keep saying that an e90 M3 is slower than miata's and prev gen M3's. A good time for a spec miata around infineon is 1:56, which I've done in my bone stock M3 with only NT01's. I'm not arguing that weight is the enemy, but our cars counter the weight of the miata with bigger tires and gobs more HP.

I cant keep explaining the same thing over and over again
e36m3 race cars at 2450 lbs and 200 whp will post a quicker lap time then your 3600 lbs 360 whp around the same track with the same driver on the same day.
e46m3 race cars at 2850 lbs and 300whp will post a quicker lap time then your 3600 lbs 360 whp around the same track with the same driver on the same day.
Not sure about the Miatas... and not sure that I know ANYTHING about Miatas.

The e46m3 Koni Challenge cars were getting faster lap times then the e92m3 Koni Challenge cars at the same time/season.

The e92m3 is fat pig and makes a worse track car then the e36m3 and e46m3 - the proof is at the NASA and BMWCCA events and most HPDEs that all 3 show at.

If you want a fast track car or w2w racer .... get an e36m3, strip it and put some parts on it ....at $30k total you'll be running 5-10 seconds faster then a $60k e9xm3
And even if you strip an e9xm3 and put some go-fast parts on it - you'll be between $80-$90k and only just AS fast as the forementioned e36.

On the street the e92/e90m3 is a better dd performer in all aspects.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

Lot's of theory and bench racing here. I think the driver also plays a big part in the equation too. For example Randy Pobst did a 1:42 at laguna with a bone stock car in a car and driver comparo; 3 seconds faster than you did in your modded car on semi-slicks. http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

Yes - the driver is a BIG part of a lap time - hence the Randy Pobst 1:42 in a "bone stock" car (im glad u believe everything you read in a "Car&Driver/MotorTrend" magazine) cough pads cough tires

And yes - its all theories and bench testing. But anytime u want to meet at the track let me know and i'll bring a 15 yr old M3 that will lap 5 seconds faster then your e90m3 with 100 less crank hp. And you can do the driving, since u can manage a 1:53 at Sears Point with a 3800lbs car?

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

Mastek, a few questions for you:
Do you not like your AP's with Mintex FR3's?? I spoke with AP in great length about the Mintex FR3's earlier this year when I was contemplating a BBK and they said that they are better than my Raybestos st 43's and more comparabile to the new raybestos st 47's. Curious why you think my setup was faster..

It depends on which Raybestos pads your using - but the FR3 are great pads - and I was the 1st one to test them for AP out here in NA. They lack the aggressive initial bite of the PFC01s or XR1s ...but are very consistent and manage heat well enough for the occasional track sessions. However, I would not run them in a 45min race.
The AP Kit has been great on the track. Very consistent and reliable.

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

What are the specs on your LSD? What you mean by 2 clutch ramps? Do you mean 2 clutches with variable ramp? What is the lockup and ramp angle? I really hate the M differential on track and wish a proper lsd were in the cards for me.

Your car must feel great with the removal of 200lbs.

My LSD is a 4.10 2-Clutch diffsonline model
I was used to a simple 4.10 ratio upgrade in my e46 (from 3.64) ...but had no idea how much difference in corner exit and handling a 2-clutch or variable ramp diff can make. This was a huge improvement to this cars handling and i HIGHLY recommend it as i too was not impressed with the OE M diff in this car. I dont know the exact specs of this diff - but its just a phone call/or email to diffsonline to find out.

The car felt better with 200 lbs less - but its marginal - even at 3430 lbs + fuel 100 lbs + driver 190 lbs = its still a 3700+ lbs car to transition weight from left to right was my biggest challenge (especially through the Esses at Infineon) ...and a proper c/o kit and 500 lbs less would make this a fantastic track car - but there is sooooo much better to be had for far less $$$.
This is a great street performace sedan/coupe with a great OE track capability ... its just too heavy for me. But have fun and be safe.

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

I still stand by my statement that there is a sub 1:50 in my car . And I have no plans to do any more mods.

That will be quite an accomplishment worth bragging about - if u reach a 1:49 at Infineon with ur OE brakes with race pads and AST Double-Adj shocks ..and NT01s - Good Luck

[RickyBobby]

Just got back from a good weekend at thunderhill. Nice meeting Derek who was flying in his Z4.

Track/Course: thunderhill
Best Lap Time: 2:00
Brake Pads: hawk DTC-70Tires: 275 NT-01
Suspension: ast 4200
Results: http://www.nasa-tt.com/Norcal_Region..._articleid/201

[DerekSelmanRacing]

Hey it was nice meeting you too! Can't wait until we get the E90 and to prove mastek wrong.

Track/Course: Thunderhill
Best Time: 2.05.2
Mods: Same as prior posts.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by mastek

I cant keep explaining the same thing over and over again
e36m3 race cars at 2450 lbs and 200 whp will post a quicker lap time then your 3600 lbs 360 whp around the same track with the same driver on the same day.

While I do understand the physics behind this argument fully.. However, my E30 BMW with full race spec suspension, weighing in at 2420 lbs and modified to around 185 HP in no way feels nearly as dominant or better than my E92 M3, not through turns, not accelerating out of turns, nothing.

There is no way this E30 of mine will outgrip the E92. Sure it may feel great, it may transition well, but it will never beat, even if it at an S50/S52 swap.

The E9x chassis, mainly the E92 is a grip monster, it does a phenomenal job of holding the road and pushing right through. It does feel a little heavier, but honestly, any car above 3200 lbs is going to feel heavy no matter what.

[nugent]

bone stock e92. potenza re -11s.
1:59

[nugent]

sears point.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

Just got back from a good weekend at thunderhill. Nice meeting Derek who was flying in his Z4.
Edit: I just discovered that porterfield messed up yet another brake order and I was running HT-10's on the front and DTC 70's in the rear. Can you say locked rear brakes?

Track/Course: thunderhill
Best Lap Time: 2:01.6
Brake Pads: hawk (HT-10F, DTC-70R)
Tires: 275 hankook c51
Suspension: ast 4200

Originally Posted by DerekSelmanRacing

Hey it was nice meeting you too! Can't wait until we get the E90 and to prove mastek wrong.

Track/Course: Thunderhill
Best Time: 2.05.2
Mods: Same as prior posts.

lol -- its not me u have to prove wrong -- its all the e36/e46 BMWCCA and NASA GTS guys that are pounding around Thunderhill at 1:55

We had a potential e90m3 project last winter that we calculated at 2800 lbs potential (400 whp) .. at those numbers -- I am sure the e90/e92 can be competitive. Just have to bring that weight down.

I was initially going for an e90 (WTCC 320si Copy) build (2600+ lbs) with Standalone on an S65 and Sequential Tranny. But we decided to go with an e36m3 Widebody PTG copy (2400 lbs) and look at a stroked S54 (same hp/tq as S65 at 50% of the cost).
We will have both our race cars (2900lbs e36m3 w S54 300whp and 2400 lbs Widebody e36m3 with 250 whp) at Infineon/Sears Point in June (NASA) -- hope to meet u guys there and argue in-person - lol

[mastek]

Originally Posted by Malekreza11

While I do understand the physics behind this argument fully.. However, my E30 BMW with full race spec suspension, weighing in at 2420 lbs and modified to around 185 HP in no way feels nearly as dominant or better than my E92 M3, not through turns, not accelerating out of turns, nothing.

There is no way this E30 of mine will outgrip the E92. Sure it may feel great, it may transition well, but it will never beat, even if it at an S50/S52 swap.

The E9x chassis, mainly the E92 is a grip monster, it does a phenomenal job of holding the road and pushing right through. It does feel a little heavier, but honestly, any car above 3200 lbs is going to feel heavy no matter what.

Full "race spec suspension" can mean Sachs MS 5-Ways with solid bushings all around to some and Koni Yellows with PolyUrethane bushings to others.
185 hp (I assume crank) is more like 150 to the wheels??

Anyways, its not what you "feel" that holds the fact that not a single e9xm3 has beat the fastest lap times held by e36/e46 BMWCCA and NASA GTS at ANY track so far.

[RickyBobby]

Originally Posted by mastek

lol -- its not me u have to prove wrong -- its all the e36/e46 BMWCCA and NASA GTS guys that are pounding around Thunderhill at 1:55


We will have both our race cars (2900lbs e36m3 w S54 300whp and 2400 lbs Widebody e36m3 with 250 whp) at Infineon/Sears Point in June (NASA) -- hope to meet u guys there and argue in-person - lol

Yeah TC and Joe were flying in their gts3 car last week. I should give tc my keys some time and see what he can squeeze out of my car.
Can't wait to see your e36's I'm June. They sound like awesome builds and no argument here that they will smoke my e90
Cheers

[xchosun1x]

Car: 08 E92 M3 DCT
Track/Course: Streets of willow ccw
Best Lap Time: 1:29
Brake Pads: oem
Tires: Advan AD08 - 245/275
Suspension: KW v3

[RickyBobby]

Track/Course: Thunderhill
NASA TTA
Best Lap Time: 2:00.1
Brake Pads: PFC
Tires: 275 hankook z214 c51
Suspension: ast 4200

[clubspec330i]

Originally Posted by xchosun1x

Car: 08 E92 M3 DCT
Track/Course: Streets of willow ccw
Best Lap Time: 1:29
Brake Pads: oem
Tires: Advan AD08 - 245/275
Suspension: KW v3

Nice time. Do you think it is possible to do 1.29 with stock suspension and stock tire? I am planning to go back with Dinan Stg 3 and see if I can drop to lower than 1.30s.

[xchosun1x]

^^. Yes it is possible I think if you know the track enough and don't get caught in traffic. Oh and some balls =)

[Muffnbluff]

Originally Posted by M GmbH

Track/Course: Mid-Ohio
Best Lap Time: 1:44
Brakes: EBC Green F/R, Performance Friction rotors (front) Euro 2-piece rear
SS Lines, ATE Supper Blue
Tires (Size & Model): BFG R1 255/40/18 front, 255/40/18 rear
Suspension: TC Kline D/A Coilover Kit, RD Sway bars, Rogue ARCA,
Camber: (F)1.5 (R) 2.75
Other Mods: Dinan intake & Stg 2 software,

Same car at Putnam Park 1:17

Nice, my friend pulled a 1:25 at Putnam with his stock E36 M3 running star specs tires.

I'm hoping to get out there again later this year once I have my M3 and see what I run.

[DD GT3 RD]

Was looking for track times and found this thread. I know its not an M3 but I used to have one and a few people from here went to the 2 recent Speed District events so thought I would revive this thread.

C63 P31 Completely Stock
Continental Contact 3
Button Willow #13 CW
2:12:56

[xchosun1x]

Track/Course: buttonwillow CW13 -
Best Lap Time: 2:08.3
Brakes: brembo GT BBK, SS Lines, ATE Supper Blue
Tires (Size & Model): AD08, 245/35 275/35
Suspension: KW V3
Other Mods: intake, exhaust, oe tune

105 ambient temps

Track/Course: Big Willow - after repaving
Best Lap Time: 1:40.xx
Brakes: stock stock
Tires (Size & Model): AD08, 245/35 275/35
Suspension: KW V3
Other Mods: intake, exhaust, oe tune

100 + ambient temps

[DD GT3 RD]

^ xchosun1x, you track often? Curious how good do you consider your lap time at Buttonwillow? Im trying to get an idea if my lap time of 2:12 with stock everything is crap, decent or good there.

[xchosun1x]

Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD

^ xchosun1x, you track often? Curious how good do you consider your lap time at Buttonwillow? Im trying to get an idea if my lap time of 2:12 with stock everything is crap, decent or good there.

hey,

i have been tracking a lot lately but only started about 3 months ago really.

I'm not sure about your times due to the different configurations, but try going onto track HQ and see what people are posting up there

all I know is with the heat from recently, times are definitely slower than times posted in the fall/spring

**were you at the speed district event at buttonwillow on the 9th? if so it was CW#13, not #1

[LateBraking]

I think I heard that around 2:15 for a stock M3 is a good time. I'm running 2:16.2 with suspension and brake mods. Stock wheels and tires though, trying to learn off of those for now, and they're not crap tires. I heard that running 2:08 modded with no aero is a good time.

2:12 on a stock GT3 sounds pretty good, I think.

James, how much did the front aero help you when we went out last weekend? Just curious how much of a significant difference you felt.

Best Lap Time: 2:16.200
Brakes: Brembo BBK 365F 345R
Tires (Size & Model): OE Pirelli, 245F 265R
Suspension: JRZ shocks/Swift springs/Ground Control camber plates
Other Mods: intake, exhaust, tune, seats.