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      05-05-2007, 12:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> while Saddam condemned well over 1,000,000 of his civilians to death.

If we take the estimates that between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Iraqis died during Saddam's rule (1979 - 2003), it yields an annual death rate of between 25,000 to 50,000 per year under Saddam.
Based on the figure of 100,000 Iraqi deaths from the invasion, it could be said that the new annual death rate under U.S. "rule" (or lack of) is somewhere around 66,000 Iraqis per year.

Annual deaths during Saddam rule: between 25,000 to 50,000
Annual deaths during U.S. Occupation: about 66,000

Talk about extermination.
100,000 is an IGNORANT number, but he will never admit. The actual number is between 300k and 600k! So, that is almost 200k people per year
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      05-05-2007, 12:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> while Saddam condemned well over 1,000,000 of his civilians to death.

If we take the estimates that between 500,000 and 1,000,000 Iraqis died during Saddam's rule (1979 - 2003), it yields an annual death rate of between 25,000 to 50,000 per year under Saddam.
Based on the figure of 100,000 Iraqi deaths from the invasion, it could be said that the new annual death rate under U.S. "rule" (or lack of) is somewhere around 66,000 Iraqis per year.

Annual deaths during Saddam rule: between 25,000 to 50,000
Annual deaths during U.S. Occupation: about 66,000

Talk about extermination.
First, your math is wrong. If you take 100,000 civilians (an enormously inflated number) killed by US forces since the invasion in March, 2003 that would put the annual average at 25,000.

Also, the 1,000,000 civilians for Saddam's rule is extremely low. There were an estimated 600,000 political executions under Saddam, 100,000 Iraqi Kurds were killed in a single operation, the Anfal, and we also must take into account the civilians who died because Saddam refused to comply with the UN and have the sanctions lifted.
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      05-05-2007, 12:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
100,000 is an IGNORANT number, but he will never admit. The actual number is between 300k and 600k! So, that is almost 200k people per year
Please provide a single piece of evidence that shows anything close to 100,000 civilians killed by US forces in Iraq.
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      05-05-2007, 01:15 PM   #48
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I thought about my ignorance overnight and now I am a reformed man. Here is what I think now.

I think it was right to remove Saddam Hussein from power. He was given an ultimatum -- and he made his choice for war. And the result of that war was to rid the world of a murderous dictator who menaced his people, invaded his neighbors, and declared America to be his enemy. Saddam Hussein, captured and jailed, is still the same raging tyrant --only now without a throne and 6 feet under. His power to harm a single man, woman, or child is gone forever. And the world is better for it.

Since the removal of Saddam, this war, like other wars in our history, has been difficult. The mission of American troops in urban raids and desert patrols, fighting Saddam loyalists and foreign terrorists, has brought danger and suffering and loss. This loss has caused sorrow for our whole nation, and it has led some to ask if we are creating more problems than we are solving. That is an important question, and the answer depends on our view of the war on terror. If we think the terrorists would become peaceful if only America would stop provoking them, then it might make sense to leave them alone.

Four years ago, the American troops confronted a regime that defied United Nations Security Council resolutions, violated a cease-fire agreement, sponsored terrorism and possessed, we believed, weapons of mass destruction. After the swift fall of Baghdad, our troops found mass graves filled by a dictator, they found some capacity to restart programs to produce weapons of mass destruction, but they did not find those weapons.

However, it is true -- and I agree with Ganeil here -- that Saddam Hussein had a history of pursuing and using weapons of mass destruction. It is true that he systematically concealed those programs, and blocked the work of UN weapons inspectors. It is true that many nations believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. But much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong.

But who cares? The most important things is that we did the right thing, we followed our beliefs, and acted within the scope of our legislatively approved powers and moral obligations. I'd like to remind all of you the words of the Christmas carol, written during the Civil War: "God is not dead, nor does He sleep; the Wrong shall fail, the Right prevail, with peace on Earth, good-will to men."

Thank you guys and have a productive day. Enjoy your bimmers!
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      05-05-2007, 01:18 PM   #49
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Please provide a single piece of evidence that shows anything close to 100,000 civilians killed by US forces in Iraq.
Not by US forces, but SINCE we "liberated" them...
and invited Al Qaeda and other scum openly in...
And did nothing (correctly) to protect those people...
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      05-05-2007, 01:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Not by US forces, but SINCE we "liberated" them...
and invited Al Qaeda and other scum openly in...
And did nothing (correctly) to protect those people...
Yeah, but compare that with 600,000 political executions under Saddam (and to be sure, we have very credible evidence of that). There is only one conclusion, my friend: we had no choice but to lend our support to the suffering Iraqi people. We showed them what the real freedom is. And it's better to be dead than oppressed. Just face the facts and don't jump to conclusions.
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      05-05-2007, 01:29 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
I thought about my ignorance overnight and now I am a reformed man. Here is what I think now.

I think it was right to remove Saddam Hussein from power. He was given an ultimatum -- and he made his choice for war. And the result of that war was to rid the world of a murderous dictator who menaced his people, invaded his neighbors, and declared America to be his enemy. Saddam Hussein, captured and jailed, is still the same raging tyrant --only now without a throne and 6 feet under. His power to harm a single man, woman, or child is gone forever. And the world is better for it.

Since the removal of Saddam, this war, like other wars in our history, has been difficult. The mission of American troops in urban raids and desert patrols, fighting Saddam loyalists and foreign terrorists, has brought danger and suffering and loss. This loss has caused sorrow for our whole nation, and it has led some to ask if we are creating more problems than we are solving. That is an important question, and the answer depends on our view of the war on terror. If we think the terrorists would become peaceful if only America would stop provoking them, then it might make sense to leave them alone.

Four years ago, the American troops confronted a regime that defied United Nations Security Council resolutions, violated a cease-fire agreement, sponsored terrorism and possessed, we believed, weapons of mass destruction. After the swift fall of Baghdad, our troops found mass graves filled by a dictator, they found some capacity to restart programs to produce weapons of mass destruction, but they did not find those weapons.

However, it is true -- and I agree with Ganeil here -- that Saddam Hussein had a history of pursuing and using weapons of mass destruction. It is true that he systematically concealed those programs, and blocked the work of UN weapons inspectors. It is true that many nations believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. But much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong.

But who cares? The most important things is that we did the right thing, we followed our beliefs, and acted within the scope of our legislatively approved powers and moral obligations. I'd like to remind all of you the words of the Christmas carol, written during the Civil War: "God is not dead, nor does He sleep; the Wrong shall fail, the Right prevail, with peace on Earth, good-will to men."

Thank you guys and have a productive day. Enjoy your bimmers!
I disagree that we should just leave terrorists (or whatever you want to call them) alone. However, I strongly believe that the way we're doing it is leading nowhere -- clearly proven since 911. Afghanistan is a complete failure, although it was a good idea. Should have kept our focus there and clean it all the way. These days, "the extinct" Taliban (as Bush once said) is recapturing more and more in Afghanistan.
Iraq is the world's current biggest mess and definitely was not like that before our "liberation". The plan we entered with is horrible and current admin has no better plan. Sending 21k additional troops just for the heck of it will just create more mess and more casualties...

SH was a dictator and he murdered those who (tried to) oppose him -- as every other dictator. He murdered thousands of them, Neil can call it a million, but that is HEAVILY egzaggerated. The point is that we went into the sovereign country, with absolutely no backing from the UN (those resolutions that Neil recalls have nothing to do with the 2003, but with 1991), and we caused (by the reasons above -- poor planning, no border control...) additional 500k people to vanish in a short period...

There is no written proof that Milosevic ordered extinction of Kosovars, Bosnians or Croats, or... nowhere. The only proof is what someone said, or pictures and videos of STAGED events. Milosevic was never proven guilty -- he's dead now.

I am sure there is no written proof of Bush's orders to throw the 500kg bomb on that building that may have Saddam hiding in there, and wipe additional 50 innocent people. But, as in a previous case, someone can confirm it. Same as so many of Iraqis "confirmed" that Saddam had the WMD and almost had a nuke...

The bottom line is that innocent are killed and someone should be responsible for that!
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      05-05-2007, 01:34 PM   #52
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Plus, 1,000,000 people died in Iraq from 1979 to 2003. That's on average 41666 people per year. To compare, approximately 163,500 people die each year from lung cancer in the U.S. That shows that Saddam was destroying an extremely healthy nation and that unprecedented destruction had to be stopped.
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      05-05-2007, 01:36 PM   #53
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Plus, 1,000,000 people died in Iraq from 1979 to 2003. That's on average 41666 people per year. To compare, approximately 163,500 people die each year from lung cancer in the U.S. That shows that Saddam was destroying an extremely healthy nation and that unprecedented destruction had to be stopped.
that lung cancer guy should be overthrown.
Bush should bomb Philip Morris, NOW. Without any UN resolution!
Also, bomb the car manufacturers for poluting the air, too
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      05-05-2007, 01:58 PM   #54
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Not by US forces, but SINCE we "liberated" them...
and invited Al Qaeda and other scum openly in...
And did nothing (correctly) to protect those people...
Interesting moral perspective.

We are responsible for the actions of our enemies. Since Saddam was our enemy and forced us to invade him because he failed to abide by the cease-fire agreement, I guess that means he is ultimately responsible for the deaths of Iraqi civilians.

Whew! I feel much better now.

I bet Truman would feel better too since this kind of takes him off the hook for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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      05-05-2007, 02:03 PM   #55
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Interesting moral perspective.

We are responsible for the actions of our enemies. Since Saddam was our enemy and forced us to invade him because he failed to abide by the cease-fire agreement, I guess that means he is ultimately responsible for the deaths of Iraqi civilians.

Whew! I feel much better now.

I bet Truman would feel better too since this kind of takes him off the hook for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Truman is f'n dead, otherwise definitely responsible for the FIRST international use of the WMD! All other international uses were also done by the USA.

Ah, you finally admitted that GW is responsible for the 9-11 stuff. I never believed into conspiracies, but the more I read your (smart) analogies), the more it becomes clear...
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      05-05-2007, 02:24 PM   #56
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Truman is f'n dead, otherwise definitely responsible for the FIRST international use of the WMD! All other international uses were also done by the USA.

Ah, you finally admitted that GW is responsible for the 9-11 stuff. I never believed into conspiracies, but the more I read your (smart) analogies), the more it becomes clear...
So now death absolves responsibility. Wow, I learn so much from you.

FYI, if WMD is defined as chemical, biological, nuclear, or radiological, the first use of WMD in warfare predates Truman by hundreds of years.
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      05-05-2007, 02:29 PM   #57
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So now death absolves responsibility. Wow, I learn so much from you.

FYI, if WMD is defined as chemical, biological, nuclear, or radiological, the first use of WMD in warfare predates Truman by hundreds of years.
again playing stupid...
you know very well what I meant...
US used the nukes in Japan, US used the depleated uranium (easily detected) in Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia, I am sure in Iraq too, US used clusted bombs in POPULATED areas (3rd largest city) in Serbia... And it's all cool.
US caused 250k colleteral deaths in Japan, US caused 5000 colleteral deaths in Serbia, hundreds of thousands in Iraq, millions in Korea and Vietnam...and it is all cool...

US experienced 3000 deaths on 9-11 and (I believe) 9 in a previous WTC bombing, and a few hundred in the embassies around the world

Some things just don't add up for me here...
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      05-05-2007, 03:45 PM   #58
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again playing stupid...
you know very well what I meant...
US used the nukes in Japan, US used the depleated uranium (easily detected) in Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia, I am sure in Iraq too, US used clusted bombs in POPULATED areas (3rd largest city) in Serbia... And it's all cool.
US caused 250k colleteral deaths in Japan, US caused 5000 colleteral deaths in Serbia, hundreds of thousands in Iraq, millions in Korea and Vietnam...and it is all cool...

US experienced 3000 deaths on 9-11 and (I believe) 9 in a previous WTC bombing, and a few hundred in the embassies around the world

Some things just don't add up for me here...
Yes, the US used nukes against Japan and I have already told you that I believe the first strike was justifiable as a way to save millions of lives that would have been lost in an invasion of the home islands but the second strike was not. Of course by the logic you apply to civilian deaths caused by al-Qaeda in Iraq, Japan was solely responsible for those deaths.

And again, there is no evidence that depleted uranium is harmful to anyone but who it is shot at. All the studies prove it causes no damage beyond the initial strike.

Are you also implying that the United States (or any nation) should equate the lives of their citizens to those of another nation?
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      05-05-2007, 04:12 PM   #59
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Yes, the US used nukes against Japan and I have already told you that I believe the first strike was justifiable as a way to save millions of lives that would have been lost in an invasion of the home islands but the second strike was not. Of course by the logic you apply to civilian deaths caused by al-Qaeda in Iraq, Japan was solely responsible for those deaths.

And again, there is no evidence that depleted uranium is harmful to anyone but who it is shot at. All the studies prove it causes no damage beyond the initial strike.

Are you also implying that the United States (or any nation) should equate the lives of their citizens to those of another nation?
How did you score >130 on LSAT???

Who did you pay to do that???

Your analogy Al Qaeda --> Japan is only clear to you...
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      05-05-2007, 04:14 PM   #60
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Are you also implying that the United States (or any nation) should equate the lives of their citizens to those of another nation?
I am implying the simple thing that your brain cannot understand -- the US lives ARE NOT more valuable than of any other nation.
And that historyt repeats itsels, so...

Anyway...we should revisit this topic in 5-10 years, and see who was right...
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      05-05-2007, 04:34 PM   #61
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How did you score >130 on LSAT???

Who did you pay to do that???

Your analogy Al Qaeda --> Japan is only clear to you...
Actually scored higher than that but...

You argue that the US is responsible for the civilians killed by al-Qaeda in Iraq because we attacked Iraq, correct?

It then logically follows that Japan is responsible for the civilians killed by the US in Japan because Japan attacked the US.

The bottom line is your attempt at shifting the blame for civilians killed in Iraq away from those actually doing the killing is nonsense. The idea that US soldiers are responsible for car bombs planted by al-Qaeda is nonsense. Most arguments you make, in fact, are nonsense.
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      05-05-2007, 04:41 PM   #62
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Actually scored higher than that but...

You argue that the US is responsible for the civilians killed by al-Qaeda in Iraq because we attacked Iraq, correct?

It then logically follows that Japan is responsible for the civilians killed by the US in Japan because Japan attacked the US.

The bottom line is your attempt at shifting the blame for civilians killed in Iraq away from those actually doing the killing is nonsense. The idea that US soldiers are responsible for car bombs planted by al-Qaeda is nonsense. Most arguments you make, in fact, are nonsense.
Actually, there is nothing logical there, Mr. 168...
Anyway, you're right, I think I got ATG syndrome -- we're not responsible for a single death and any violence in Iraq!
Although, there was NO violence, absolutely NO wide Al Qaeda activity in Iraq prior to 2003, and not even close number of deaths per month/day/hour in Iraq prior to 2003 somehow it all (THE MESS) started upon our "liberation". Must be a coincidence. Must be that Bush saw the future (or as he would say "God told him...") and acted upon it and just got into Iraq in time for all the fun...
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      05-05-2007, 04:57 PM   #63
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ganeil, your response sir?

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      05-05-2007, 05:59 PM   #64
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Actually, there is nothing logical there, Mr. 168...
Anyway, you're right, I think I got ATG syndrome -- we're not responsible for a single death and any violence in Iraq!
Although, there was NO violence, absolutely NO wide Al Qaeda activity in Iraq prior to 2003, and not even close number of deaths per month/day/hour in Iraq prior to 2003 somehow it all (THE MESS) started upon our "liberation". Must be a coincidence. Must be that Bush saw the future (or as he would say "God told him...") and acted upon it and just got into Iraq in time for all the fun...
I hope we are responsible for plenty of violence in Iraq. I also know that violence is directed at foreign terrorists who detonate car bombs in busy markets and mosques, former Sunni ba'athists who wish to prevent the emergence of an elected Shi'ite led government, and Shi'ite militiamen and death squads who exact revenge on innocent Sunnis for the acts of others.

Violence in and of itself is not a bad thing. Properly directed violence has done a lot of good throughout history.
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      05-05-2007, 06:57 PM   #65
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I hope we are responsible for plenty of violence in Iraq. I also know that violence is directed at foreign terrorists who detonate car bombs in busy markets and mosques, former Sunni ba'athists who wish to prevent the emergence of an elected Shi'ite led government, and Shi'ite militiamen and death squads who exact revenge on innocent Sunnis for the acts of others.

Violence in and of itself is not a bad thing. Properly directed violence has done a lot of good throughout history.
that coming from someone whose country has not seen real violence in 200 years...
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      05-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #66
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It won't be chaos. A fundamentalist anti-western minority regime will quickly come to power.

Pull out and the whole region turns into a mix of north-korea and Iran and pretty soon you're paying more for fuel than for printer ink.

Really, there is no choice. US troops (and US casualties) in Iraq will be a reality for a very long time because the economy cannot withstand much higher oil prices.

But hey, Saddam is dead, right!
I suppose you must define what chaos means to you. I believe chaos is similar to that of Somolia after the US pulled out. There is hunger, instability, and no real infrastructure... yet the people are unified somewhat under warlords who govern locals. Death is still frequent yet its not "every man for himself"-chaos... which might be your definition of chaos.

Anti-western regimes or warlords will take over and it will remain an outlaw region... I don't see how you can deny that there wouldn't be chaos or fear without any solid government controlling the area.
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