BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-04-2007, 09:00 AM   #1
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

What would happen to them if we pulled out?

Quote:
Sunni Muslim sheikhs join US in fighting Al Qaeda
Iraqi tribal support is linked to drop in violence in Anbar Province.
By Sam Dagher | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

Ramadi, Iraq - Amid fields of wheat and barley, dozens of armed men emerged along a dirt road leading to the fiefdom of the Bu-Fahed tribe in Hamdhiyah, an idyllic corner of restive Anbar Province, just north of Ramadi. "Welcome to our proud sheikhs. Down with terror," read banners on the road.

Dozens of sheikhs and tribal elders in flowing gold-trimmed camel-hair cloaks, many clutching colorful worry beads, streamed into a conference hall. Each was frisked by tribesmen to guard against suicide bombs.

The meeting looked to be a typical gathering, but its true purpose was for top sheikhs to issue an ultimatum: quit supporting Al Qaeda and turn in relatives belonging to the group.

Like dominoes, tribes reeling from a campaign of killing and intimidation by Al Qaeda have been joining, one by one, the US-led fight against Al Qaeda in Iraq in this Sunni Arab province. Last month, US Gen. David Petraeus told Congress that violence was down significantly here and that the tribes were key to the transformation.

Continued
What do you think would happen to these people if US forces were withdrawn?
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 12:43 PM   #2
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

what happened in Somalia? Ruwanda? many places that we did not even go in... Are you confirming that we are responsible for the mess in Iraq, therefore the obligation to stay???

And, are you concerned what will happen to them or our soldiers (if we stay)?

Many if's and what's there...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 02:20 PM   #3
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
what happened in Somalia? Ruwanda? many places that we did not even go in... Are you confirming that we are responsible for the mess in Iraq, therefore the obligation to stay???

And, are you concerned what will happen to them or our soldiers (if we stay)?

Many if's and what's there...
I am saying we have a legal and moral obligation to the people of Iraq.

Soldiers are tools of national policy and if the proper national policy is to meet our moral and legal commitments then it is proper for them to remain.

There is only one "what" and one "if."

What will happen if we leave prematurely?
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 02:45 PM   #4
Max_!
First Lieutenant
3

 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe


Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

> I am saying we have a legal and moral obligation to the people of Iraq.

Aw, come on.

You (well, the government you did not overthrow eventhough you have the right to bear arms for just this kind of thing) did not have a legal or a moral obligation (or even god-given right) to go there in the first place.

But you (your government) made the mess and you (your government) can't pull out without bringing the war home.

Seriously, I think you (personally) were better off with the cheating, sigar-sopping saxophone player.

Last edited by Max_!; 05-04-2007 at 02:50 PM. Reason: typo
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 03:52 PM   #5
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post

There is only one "what" and one "if."

What will happen if we leave prematurely?
Actually, there is more of them:
If the "prematurely" was 5 years ago???
If another life of our kid is worth it?
If another dollar out of my taxes is worth it?
What will happen when Bush is out?
If we reduced/stopped or provoked more terrorism in the World by doing it?
If, what...

Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 03:55 PM   #6
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
You (well, the government you did not overthrow eventhough you have the right to bear arms for just this kind of thing) did not have a legal or a moral obligation (or even god-given right) to go there in the first place.

But you (your government) made the mess and you (your government) can't pull out without bringing the war home.

You see Neil -- this is what I am talking all along -- people from Europe, Asia...everywhere automatically connect me to W and my Government... That is such a shame... I don't want that. I don't want to be identified as "the same as" someone who barely has 30% of people's support in the country he was elected to lead...

And that is all I see on my travels...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 04:00 PM   #7
FirstClass
Brigadier General
35

 
Drives: 328xi
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA


Posts: 3,199
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
You did not have a legal or a moral obligation (or even god-given right) to go there in the first place.
That's debatable, but you can't change the past. The fact is that now we're there we need to finish what we started. Pulling out before things are stable would spell disaster for the entire region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
You see Neil -- this is what I am talking all along -- people from Europe, Asia...everywhere automatically connect me to W and my Government... That is such a shame... I don't want that. I don't want to be identified as "the same as" someone who barely has 30% of people's support in the country he was elected to lead...

And that is all I see on my travels...
See the bold. He's doing what he was elected to do.
__________________
328xi Coupe, Montego Blue on Black with Alum, Step, Sport, Premium, CA, PDC, Cold Weather (Damn Pennsylvania winters)
Current Mods: Heavy right foot - Planned Mods: Lightweight right foot

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh valley View Post
shit, if i had that kind of money id buy a gtstreet for monday, an ascari a10 for tuesday, a DBS for wednesday and id just ride jessica alba the rest of the week.
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 04:14 PM   #8
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> I am saying we have a legal and moral obligation to the people of Iraq.

Aw, come on.

You (well, the government you did not overthrow eventhough you have the right to bear arms for just this kind of thing) did not have a legal or a moral obligation (or even god-given right) to go there in the first place.

But you (your government) made the mess and you (your government) can't pull out without bringing the war home.

Seriously, I think you (personally) were better off with the cheating, sigar-sopping saxophone player.
We (and I do not shirk from accepting the legitimate actions of my government) did have a moral and legal justification for removing Iraq's previous regime. As a result of that legitimate action, we imposed on ourselves moral and legal responsibilities.
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 04:35 PM   #9
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
You see Neil -- this is what I am talking all along -- people from Europe, Asia...everywhere automatically connect me to W and my Government... That is such a shame... I don't want that. I don't want to be identified as "the same as" someone who barely has 30% of people's support in the country he was elected to lead...

And that is all I see on my travels...
Ahhh... so US foreign policy should be predicated on you enjoying your time abroad. I got it now. I am sure the President will adjust it accordingly as soon as it is explained to him.
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 05:46 PM   #10
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstClass View Post
That's debatable, but you can't change the past. The fact is that now we're there we need to finish what we started. Pulling out before things are stable would spell disaster for the entire region.

See the bold. He's doing what he was elected to do.
That is why 30% of people support him now from 51% 2.5 years ago -- because he's doing what we asked him to do

The guy is a plain hick, not a diplomat and that he's shown many times...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 05:47 PM   #11
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Ahhh... so US foreign policy should be predicated on you enjoying your time abroad. I got it now. I am sure the President will adjust it accordingly as soon as it is explained to him.
he would not understand it even if you drew it for him...

And obviously you have the same (brain) syndrome -- it is not me -- it is 300M Americans that are viewed that way...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 05:50 PM   #12
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
We (and I do not shirk from accepting the legitimate actions of my government) did have a moral and legal justification for removing Iraq's previous regime. As a result of that legitimate action, we imposed on ourselves moral and legal responsibilities.
So, moral regime to remove (ONE) dictator...
Where are our morals when 3M Somalis are replaced, or when 1/2 mil of Ruwandans are killed, or when NK dude builds crap and dictates his people 10000000000000 worse than Saddam did to his people, and I could go on.

Please do not mention Bush and "moral" in the same sentence...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 06:10 PM   #13
ATG
Major
Cuba
45

 
ATG's Avatar
 
Drives: f30 328 xdrive, e90 335i gone
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Eastside


Posts: 1,058
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
We (and I do not shirk from accepting the legitimate actions of my government) did have a moral and legal justification for removing Iraq's previous regime.
What a bunch of conservative big brother bullshit! Iraq was the only secular state in the Middle East, and was at least free from religious fanatism (unlike the U.S.). Now, thanks to the unilateral decision of the U.S., not sanctioned by the U.N., there is a very realistic chance that Iraq will turn into a carbon copy of Iran -- a muslim fundamentalists country. is that the desired outcome? That 200 people were killed 25 years ago does not justify invasion of another country that occurred in clear disregard of the decision of the majority of the U.N. member countries. G.W. may have wanted to play the role of "exorcist" and justify the intelligence's failures that led to 911 (don't start blaiming Clinton here) or, as one of my friends nicely put it (a republican BTW), Iraq was just a "low hanging fruit" that we could and did grab.

When will the people in this country stop living by fairy tales and believing that we are the "spiderman" of the world?? Where did that "duty" to invade Iraq come from? Actually, "justification" as you put it, is a much better word, because it's possible to justify almost everything, especially after the fact. It's simple: just put the batman and spiderman rhetoric together, spice it up by the horrific story of what could have happened, and learn to skillfully use words "may," "if," "reasonable belief," "axis of evil," "probable," etc.
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 06:17 PM   #14
ATG
Major
Cuba
45

 
ATG's Avatar
 
Drives: f30 328 xdrive, e90 335i gone
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Eastside


Posts: 1,058
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
So, moral regime to remove (ONE) dictator...
Where are our morals when 3M Somalis are replaced, or when 1/2 mil of Ruwandans are killed, or when NK dude builds crap and dictates his people 10000000000000 worse than Saddam did to his people, and I could go on.

Please do not mention Bush and "moral" in the same sentence...
Good point about North Korea. Definitely not a low hanging fruit.

it's funny that now the supporters of the war try to focus on the "evil" nature of Saddam's regime. I clearly remember that back in 2002 and 2003 the main reason for the invasion was "credible evidence that Iraq may possess weapons of mass destruction." But see "justification"....
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 06:32 PM   #15
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Good point about North Korea. Definitely not a low hanging fruit.

it's funny that now the supporters of the war try to focus on the "evil" nature of Saddam's regime. I clearly remember that back in 2002 and 2003 the main reason for the invasion was "credible evidence that Iraq may possess weapons of mass destruction." But see "justification"....
and then they turn it into us that oppose W are Saddam and terror supporters... That is what the "uniter" did to us...

I can put any money down that if W came out in 2002 and said I want to remove a dictator because he's bad and nothing else, no one would not support that and vote for it. Instead, he lied, he lied to everyone and when he could not lie any more he tried to blame it on French and German intel, then on our own... Instead, he used the 9-11 events to inject a fear into the population and to control the nation and Government as he said -- "You're either with us (me) or with the enemy"...

Same as he put all the blame on Libby, and many others...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 06:59 PM   #16
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
That is why 30% of people support him now from 51% 2.5 years ago -- because he's doing what we asked him to do

The guy is a plain hick, not a diplomat and that he's shown many times...
I see you do not understand the difference between leading and following.

Sometimes leadership is unpopular.
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 07:05 PM   #17
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
he would not understand it even if you drew it for him...

And obviously you have the same (brain) syndrome -- it is not me -- it is 300M Americans that are viewed that way...
While I am sure his degrees from Yale and Harvard do not compare to yours, he is smart enough to make millions of dollars and get himself elected President of the US twice.

I will again bring your attention to the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum. Please stop attempting to justify your beliefs by stating how many people you think agree with you, it is illogical and adds nothing to the discussion.
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 07:14 PM   #18
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
While I am sure his degrees from Yale and Harvard do not compare to yours, he is smart enough to make millions of dollars and get himself elected President of the US twice. .
Actually, I am not sure if you're really so narrow minded or just pretend to be...
But it is really not uncommon that people graduated from top-notch schools (with C-average), and that had daddy make money for them... I am sure W made his money -- give me a f'n break...

As for being re-elected -- right -- he did it all by himself. He looked like a 2nd grader during the debates...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I will again bring your attention to the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum. Please stop attempting to justify your beliefs by stating how many people you think agree with you, it is illogical and adds nothing to the discussion.

Actually, that is the reality that you miss to understand and show over and over...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 07:15 PM   #19
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I see you do not understand the difference between leading and following.

Sometimes leadership is unpopular.
Leadership as you (wish) to describe means producing success.
GW has not produced a single one so far -- in 6 years.

That is not my definition of leadership...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 07:21 PM   #20
rudyg
Captain
United_States
2

 
rudyg's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 E90
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal


Posts: 38
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
We (and I do not shirk from accepting the legitimate actions of my government) did have a moral and legal justification for removing Iraq's previous regime. As a result of that legitimate action, we imposed on ourselves moral and legal responsibilities.
Remind me, what was the legal justification?
__________________
325i: Black Sapphire Metallic|Steptronic|ZSP|CA|Xenon|Pwr Seats
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 07:36 PM   #21
dr335is
Brigadier General
77

 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX


Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudyg View Post
Remind me, what was the legal justification?
Let me guess -- he's going to pull the UN resolution from 1991 that supposedly applies here and 12 WMD leftovers found somewhere...

Bush should go to the war crimes tribunal and rotten with Saddam, Milosevic and other world's manipulators...
Appreciate 0
      05-04-2007, 08:45 PM   #22
ganeil
Colonel
United_States
49

 
ganeil's Avatar
 
Drives: 328i Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Georgia


Posts: 2,050
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
So, moral regime to remove (ONE) dictator...
Where are our morals when 3M Somalis are replaced, or when 1/2 mil of Ruwandans are killed, or when NK dude builds crap and dictates his people 10000000000000 worse than Saddam did to his people, and I could go on.

Please do not mention Bush and "moral" in the same sentence...
This is one of my favorite dubious arguments:

If you are unwilling or unable to correct all of the world's problems, it therefore follows that you should not attempt to solve any.
__________________
_____________

1974 2002tii
1978 320i
2007 328i
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:46 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST