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      05-03-2007, 04:36 PM   #1
bullitt5897
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Tranny News!!!

check out the latest on the ZF 8speed tranny slotted for the BMW lines.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/zf-annou...automatic.html

So this seems to confirm the new tranny will be 8speed auto

I believe thats what the new ///M has been testing

Mike
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      05-03-2007, 04:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullitt5897 View Post
check out the latest on the ZF 8speed tranny slotted for the BMW lines.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/zf-annou...automatic.html

So this seems to confirm the new tranny will be 8speed auto

I believe thats what the new ///M has been testing

Mike
2009 7 series... automatic

not Dual clutch DCT
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      05-03-2007, 04:57 PM   #3
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Thats a normal auto, not for M
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      05-03-2007, 05:08 PM   #4
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8 speed dual cluch would be perfect fot the M3!

but a normal auto with 8-speeds, not that special, lexus has it...
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      05-03-2007, 05:29 PM   #5
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Give me an 8 speed auto because I am too lazy to push paddles ;-) Eventually, technology will catch up to the point where the computer knows better than humans. And with their superior reflex we might as well eliminate the human factor. This will open another can of worms like DSG/SMG vs Manual. With a perfect auto you can focus more on steering and completely forget about shifting. Slowly, the computers will chip away the human involvement in the machine. If you disagree you are hating or can't accept new technology.
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      05-03-2007, 06:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbo View Post
Give me an 8 speed auto because I am too lazy to push paddles ;-) Eventually, technology will catch up to the point where the computer knows better than humans. And with their superior reflex we might as well eliminate the human factor. This will open another can of worms like DSG/SMG vs Manual. With a perfect auto you can focus more on steering and completely forget about shifting. Slowly, the computers will chip away the human involvement in the machine. If you disagree you are hating or can't accept new technology.
Ummm.... you know where your argument leads, don't you?

Unless you are being sarcastic............

I'm sure you've seen "The Terminator" movies......
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      05-03-2007, 06:30 PM   #7
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Ummm.... you know where your argument leads, don't you?

Unless you are being sarcastic............

I'm sure you've seen "The Terminator" movies......
I was being sarcastic. I was putting a spin on the argument people use to state SMG/DSG is better than manual. What point do you stop? I am sure in 10-20 years we will have a car that can drive around a circuit better than any human can. I can sit in my car, do nothing, and go around Laguna Seca faster than you.
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      05-03-2007, 08:20 PM   #8
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I was being sarcastic. I was putting a spin on the argument people use to state SMG/DSG is better than manual. What point do you stop? I am sure in 10-20 years we will have a car that can drive around a circuit better than any human can. I can sit in my car, do nothing, and go around Laguna Seca faster than you.

loL! Nicely put.
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      05-03-2007, 08:30 PM   #9
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loL! Nicely put.
what if he realized he was being stupid and said he was kidding...
hmmmm..
lol jk
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      05-03-2007, 09:06 PM   #10
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8-speed for better fuel economy

8-speed is for sport automatic. M3 is still being tested with 7-speed M-DCT. 8-speed is going to be trend given that Lexus LS460/600 and IS-F are using it. 8-speed also boosts fuel economy 6% more than 6-speed in similar application. The new ZF transmission has been designed with hybrid and all-wheel-drive in mind.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto...73.A12292.html

It won't be difficult for BMW to apply 8-speed M-DCT in future model, one clutch controls odd gears 1,3,5,7,R and other clutch controls even gears 2,4,6,8, looks fairly distributed from mechanical stand point.
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      05-03-2007, 10:59 PM   #11
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8-speed DCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
8-speed is for sport automatic. M3 is still being tested with 7-speed M-DCT. 8-speed is going to be trend given that Lexus LS460/600 and IS-F are using it. 8-speed also boosts fuel economy 6% more than 6-speed in similar application. The new ZF transmission has been designed with hybrid and all-wheel-drive in mind.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto...73.A12292.html

It won't be difficult for BMW to apply 8-speed M-DCT in future model, one clutch controls odd gears 1,3,5,7,R and other clutch controls even gears 2,4,6,8, looks fairly distributed from mechanical stand point.
I contend 8 speeds is too many for any manually-activated transmission. For an auto, fine, go 10, but if you have are expected to actuate the changes, 7 is about the limit until you are constantly flippin' levers.
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      05-04-2007, 12:03 AM   #12
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8 vs.7 ?

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Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
I contend 8 speeds is too many for any manually-activated transmission. For an auto, fine, go 10, but if you have are expected to actuate the changes, 7 is about the limit until you are constantly flippin' levers.
Isn't 8 a bit arbitrary compared to 7? For a while when 6MTs were new I thought 6 was a lot. However, for a DCT such as M-DCT, with nearly 0 shift times, the right amount of gears will be the amount that maximizes performance not an arbitrary amount the someone thinks is "too many". Heck, I know you realize it but from so many posts about tranny issues I think folks forget that the DCTs will likely have a fully auto mode as well as a manual mode via paddles.

Last edited by swamp2; 05-04-2007 at 12:23 PM.
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      05-04-2007, 01:05 AM   #13
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With the M3's high revving, relatively low torque V8 (with peak power AT REDLINE), the more gears it has the faster it will be. It allows you to stay closer to the power peak after every shift.

But I think 7 should do just fine.
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      05-04-2007, 12:25 PM   #14
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7 speed, or 8 speed..

The top 2 or 3 gears (the longest) usually overdrive for fuel economy

The fifth gear is 1:1.

It would be nice if only the 8th gear is overdrive, so as E36jakeo says, we have 7 very close ratio gear to keep it at upper rpm all the time
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      05-04-2007, 01:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Heck, I know you realize it but from so many posts about tranny issues I think folks forget that the DCTs will likely have a fully auto mode as well as a manual mode via paddles.
About that: Will the M-DCT be closer to an SMG or to a full auto with paddles (like you can have it now with all regular BMWs)? I know what the difference between DCT and auto is in terms of implementation, but how will it feel? Will there be a "kick-down" that causes a downshift or will I be able to choose the gear at any time and it doesn't downshift even with full throttle?

Please explain...
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      05-04-2007, 01:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2m3 View Post
7 speed, or 8 speed..

The top 2 or 3 gears (the longest) usually overdrive for fuel economy

The fifth gear is 1:1.

It would be nice if only the 8th gear is overdrive, so as E36jakeo says, we have 7 very close ratio gear to keep it at upper rpm all the time
On the M5 the 6th gear is 1:1, so only the 7th is a overdrive gear.

Best regards, south
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      05-04-2007, 01:22 PM   #17
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My suspicions

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
About that: Will the M-DCT be closer to an SMG or to a full auto with paddles (like you can have it now with all regular BMWs)? I know what the difference between DCT and auto is in terms of implementation, but how will it feel? Will there be a "kick-down" that causes a downshift or will I be able to choose the gear at any time and it doesn't downshift even with full throttle?

Please explain...
It is all guess work until someone drives it and reports, but here are my educated guesses.

DCTs, SMGs and MT are all MT. Obviously SMG is exactly like a standard MT with automation. SMG can be a bit harsh becuase it is only the computer and hydraulics pushing the clutch and "slamming" the next gear and popping the clutch again. Even though DCTs are true manuals (you could implement one with a clutch pedal that operated both clutchs) the huge difference and benefit is the near zero shift time and power going to the ground always except again for that tiny fraction of a second for the clutch operations. I think BMW will implement DCT almost just like SMG. You will have a full automatic mode with varying levels of sport-comfort and the primary variables will just be the rpms where each upshift occurs and some variation on the automated downshift as well to maximize acceleration when you increase throttle or go WOT. Since DCT is silky smooth by its design there will not be other variables to alter such as the speed of clutching or speed of gear shift movement by the hydraulics. Then in the manual mode you can shift with the lever on the tunnel or via steering wheel mounted paddels. I think in manual mode the ONLY shifts done without driver request will be those on deceleration to prevent the car from bogging/stalling. Again the shifts are nearly zero time and very smooth. This tranny will not be as raw nor violent as SMG in its aggressive modes but it will significantly out perform it.

I think it will be awesome to say the least.

BTW did you see my post with the acceleration graphs on the VW with it's dual clutch system? Have a look at that!
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      05-04-2007, 01:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It is all guess work until someone drives it and reports, but here are my educated guesses.

DCTs, SMGs and MT are all MT. Obviously SMG is exactly like a standard MT with automation. SMG can be a bit harsh becuase it is only the computer and hydraulics pushing the clutch and "slamming" the next gear and popping the clutch again. Even though DCTs are true manuals (you could implement one with a clutch pedal that operated both clutchs) the huge difference and benefit is the near zero shift time and power going to the ground always except again for that tiny fraction of a second for the clutch operations. I think BMW will implement DCT almost just like SMG. You will have a full automatic mode with varying levels of sport-comfort and the primary variables will just be the rpms where each upshift occurs and some variation on the automated downshift as well to maximize acceleration when you increase throttle or go WOT. Since DCT is silky smooth by its design there will not be other variables to alter such as the speed of clutching or speed of gear shift movement by the hydraulics. Then in the manual mode you can shift with the lever on the tunnel or via steering wheel mounted paddels. I think in manual mode the ONLY shifts done without driver request will be those on deceleration to prevent the car from bogging/stalling. Again the shifts are nearly zero time and very smooth. This tranny will not be as raw nor violent as SMG in its aggressive modes but it will significantly out perform it.

I think it will be awesome to say the least.

BTW did you see my post with the acceleration graphs on the VW with it's dual clutch system? Have a look at that!

Thanks for explaining!

So I shouldn't be worried at all about throttle response? If so, I think I'll get one with M-DCT, as I will wait till March 08 anyway...
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      05-04-2007, 01:58 PM   #19
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On the M5 the 6th gear is 1:1, so only the 7th is a overdrive gear.

Best regards, south
Thank you, maybe this is the only one in the market now
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      05-04-2007, 04:16 PM   #20
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Throttle

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Originally Posted by swiss_cornholio View Post
Thanks for explaining!

So I shouldn't be worried at all about throttle response? If so, I think I'll get one with M-DCT, as I will wait till March 08 anyway...

I think throttle response and tranny issues are 100% separate. Personally I am M-DCT only. I would not own this car with 6MT.
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      05-08-2007, 07:34 PM   #21
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I think 8-Speed is a little too many for shifting haha.
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      05-08-2007, 07:39 PM   #22
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I think 8-Speed is a little too many for shifting haha.
I do not mind to shift many times, if the close ratio of 1.25:1.0 on the first 5 gears.
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