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      03-25-2011, 04:46 PM   #45
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      03-25-2011, 05:03 PM   #46
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      03-25-2011, 05:28 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talor View Post
what haters, just cause gintani's kits and OE tunes are murdering the competitions... gintani all the way, dirty business my ass
Why is it that Gintani customers always have to answer questions / allegations on the forums usually with dumb responses like this? Everyone is a hater because they bring actual data and proof to be discussed instead of going along with what they are told? It would be nice to hear from Gintani who im sure has seen this thread as to why the evidence provided appears to show that they clearly have been cheating to market their products and also slander other vendors in the process. Not to mention when Drew blew his motor Gintani never once posted about the situation or has yet to follow up and let people know what the status of his car is, again leaving their customer to face the public and answer all the questions. Im sorry but this is not how you run a business. If I was put in this situation with a company I gave my hard earned money to I would be having serious words with the owner.

Good luck to the OP on getting to the bottom of all of this and to any other customer who got one of these manipulated dyno charts.
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      03-25-2011, 05:47 PM   #48
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This is "proof" coming from OETuning competitors. It's not like it's a 3rd party saying they are fabricating dyno charts. it's powerchip which obviously still holds a grudge against Jeremy, and Robert who bashes OETuning everywhere he goes. There is no 3rd party here. People say "oh wait for the gintani fan boys". Well who are you? Your the gintani haters. Your not neutral here either. No one with an oetune has ever complained about there tune not being what OE says it is. Can't say the same for powerchip.
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      03-25-2011, 06:05 PM   #49
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I have had my car tested independently twice and it made the so called "manipulated" gains over my old PC tune both times. Just putting it out there.
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      03-25-2011, 06:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpine335i View Post
This is "proof" coming from OETuning competitors. It's not like it's a 3rd party saying they are fabricating dyno charts. it's powerchip which obviously still holds a grudge against Jeremy, and Robert who bashes OETuning everywhere he goes. There is no 3rd party here. People say "oh wait for the gintani fan boys". Well who are you? Your the gintani haters. Your not neutral here either. No one with an oetune has ever complained about there tune not being what OE says it is. Can't say the same for powerchip.
I'm not taking either side as I would never tune my ECU on this car. I have no issue with Gintani. My only issue is every time a Gintani or OE thread comes up it's full of comments like below. In fact if I was Gintani I'd be a little annoyed at this behavior as it just casts them in a bad light, even if they did nothing wrong.


Here's from the fan boys:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talor View Post
what haters, just cause gintani's kits and OE tunes are murdering the competitions... gintani all the way, dirty business my ass
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      03-25-2011, 06:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinM3 View Post
Why is it that Gintani customers always have to answer questions / allegations on the forums usually with dumb responses like this? Everyone is a hater because they bring actual data and proof to be discussed instead of going along with what they are told? It would be nice to hear from Gintani who im sure has seen this thread as to why the evidence provided appears to show that they clearly have been cheating to market their products and also slander other vendors in the process. Not to mention when Drew blew his motor Gintani never once posted about the situation or has yet to follow up and let people know what the status of his car is, again leaving their customer to face the public and answer all the questions. Im sorry but this is not how you run a business. If I was put in this situation with a company I gave my hard earned money to I would be having serious words with the owner.

Good luck to the OP on getting to the bottom of all of this and to any other customer who got one of these manipulated dyno charts.
Again the only evidence you have is a possible manipulated dyno...you act like this is some new act by tuner companies...

Haha where have you been since "CAI" companies have been showing 10-30 hp gains....i didnt see you start a bullshit thread about how they where claiming crazy numbers...and we all friggin know that no cold air intake pulls in more than probably 5 HP...and that is if it doesnt actually loose you HP. Not only that most of the "Cold Air Intakes" are not even true "Cold Air Intakes"...where were you guys on this one.

I think it is ridiculous that you guys do not care at all to get strong evidence before you try to rip down a company. I find it hilarious that 99% of the owners of these kits are saying that it is great company and their work is very professional...and then all the guys without the kits are the ones coming in saying that it is crap.

If their tuning was such crap...dont you think there would be more people saying it is crap who are actually running their products in there car?

I barely know anything about either side of the arguement...but honestly you guys claiming shit against this company are doing a horrible job of providing any proof for your ridiculous allegations.
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      03-25-2011, 06:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
Again the only evidence you have is a possible manipulated dyno...you act like this is some new act by tuner companies...

Haha where have you been since "CAI" companies have been showing 10-30 hp gains....i didnt see you start a bullshit thread about how they where claiming crazy numbers...and we all friggin know that no cold air intake pulls in more than probably 5 HP...and that is if it doesnt actually loose you HP. Not only that most of the "Cold Air Intakes" are not even true "Cold Air Intakes"...where were you guys on this one.

I think it is ridiculous that you guys do not care at all to get strong evidence before you try to rip down a company. I find it hilarious that 99% of the owners of these kits are saying that it is great company and their work is very professional...and then all the guys without the kits are the ones coming in saying that it is crap.

If their tuning was such crap...dont you think there would be more people saying it is crap who are actually running their products in there car?

I barely know anything about either side of the arguement...but honestly you guys claiming shit against this company are doing a horrible job of providing any proof for your ridiculous allegations.
So you are arguing that false claims are OK? I also have no dog in this fight but c'mon. Also, if you barely know anything about the arguement then why comment?
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      03-25-2011, 07:37 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiokenM3 View Post
im just wondering how gintani could manipulate my dyno when i was there. alex was sitting in the driver seat and did run after run, jeremy was in the passenger seat tuning. neither of them left my car and never touching the dyno comp
Same with my car. I was there when Jeremy was dyno tuning my car. Never saw him "tweeking" the dyno to manipulate numbers.
What a load of BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbojangles View Post
People are so gullible these days.. They hear one thing from someone and TOTALLY throw it out of proportion..

Since when did OE Blow any MBZ vehicles???.. M33 it's CLEARLY obvious that you have some kind of hard on for OE/Gintani. If you hear one thing from someone, you AUTOMATICALLY believe its real.. or atleast preach that it is real just to bring them down..

As for the Dyno business, I wouldn't even want to say anything about it because I honestly don't know anything about dyno's and how they are supposed to run so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut on that one. If you do not know what you are talking about please don't talk at all. No one needs more BS then there already is.
+1111

Agreed 100%.
People talk alot of shit without having full knowledge or supporting data. Its also funny how fast "bad news" spreads around about a tuner.

This is why I asked M33 if he can provide me with some evidence on supposed "blown MB motors" that Jeremy allegedly tuned. The only way I will believe this if I see it in front of me. Other then that, Im calling bullshit.
I for one have never had one problem with the OE tune, been running it on my car for a year now and its running better then ever.
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      03-25-2011, 07:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpine335i View Post
This is "proof" coming from OETuning competitors. It's not like it's a 3rd party saying they are fabricating dyno charts. it's powerchip which obviously still holds a grudge against Jeremy, and Robert who bashes OETuning everywhere he goes. There is no 3rd party here. People say "oh wait for the gintani fan boys". Well who are you? Your the gintani haters. Your not neutral here either. No one with an oetune has ever complained about there tune not being what OE says it is. Can't say the same for powerchip.
Unfortunately, as I said in the other thread, the only ones who are presenting an argument with supporting data are not the ones supporting or affiliated with OE. Anyone who seems to support or be affiliated with OE has just resorted to name calling or just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. There has not been one shred of technical data, other than the dyno charts in original post, provided by anyone speaking on behalf of or supporting OE. Not very convincing. If there is data to back up OE claims other than "the owner claims the car feels faster", why not present it. IMO, the PC side of the argument has been relatively civil and stuck to the technical data. The same cannot be said for the OE side.
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      03-25-2011, 07:47 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 808MGuy View Post
Unfortunately, as I said in the other thread, the only ones who are presenting an argument with supporting data are not the ones supporting or affiliated with OE. Anyone who seems to support or be affiliated with OE has just resorted to name calling or just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. There has not been one shred of technical data, other than the dyno charts in original post, provided by anyone speaking on behalf of or supporting OE. Not very convincing. If there is data to back up OE claims other than "the owner claims the car feels faster", why not present it. IMO, the PC side of the argument has been relatively civil and stuck to the technical data. The same cannot be said for the OE side.
Here is my supporting data.....
I was physically there the whole time when Jeremy was doing multiple runs on the dyno with my car.
The gains are clearly shown and are felt. We have even done comparison runs (real world testing) with other stock C63's and the gains or VERY significant. Dynos are just measurement tools imo, real world testing is were it counts the most, and OE tuning is truly on top if its game.
I wouldn't bash any other tuning if I didn't have evidence or heard something bad about them from person X.


Last edited by phusion974; 03-25-2011 at 07:56 PM.
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      03-25-2011, 08:00 PM   #56
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Three pages deep and still the question remains, "Were the numbers manipulated?"

Was it an isolated event, a single car phenom? (Everyone makes mistakes/Factory gets it real right sometimes.)
or a systematic misrepresentation across multiple events? (Two points make a trend.)

Not withstanding the original OP was pretty specific with the data, and used multiple sources to illustrate a point. At this time I have seen little other than conjecture to counter the OP's original assessment.
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      03-25-2011, 08:40 PM   #57
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I'd like to see Gintini's official stance on this please.
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      03-25-2011, 08:46 PM   #58
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Mike@Powerchip posted this in another thread. Seems like he's willing to drop the gloves and end all the bullshit by puting his money where his mouth is. Good for you Mike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
Dear M3post members:

Just wanted to touch base in this thread to inform the public of our position in this matter.

Powerchip does not believe that those dyno results are accurate by any means.

To prove that these results are most likely not realized gains, I have extended an offer to the OP which will give him the opportunity to have an independent shop verify those results at no cost to him.

This would entail dynoing the car with the software currently installed, and dynoing the car again with the Powerchip software that was previously installed.

We could involve Jeremy/OE Tuning if requested, and he can put the car back to stock so we never see his file. He obviously, already has our Powerchip file since that was his "base" for the tune presently installed in the vehicle.

Because we've heard of people playing with static correction values to produce paper gains, we feel it would be a positive contribution to the community for such gains to be verified. We caution taking dyno charts such as these at face value.

If in fact the OE tuning software makes 25Whp more than the Powerchip software, I am willing to extend a $690 refund to the OP. The dyno operation and lunch will be provided on the house.

A few days ago I sent the OP a message indicating our offer. He responded that he would be in touch and would contact OE tuning to see if they would like to be involved.

To date, I have not heard anything further. We are willing to put our time, resources, and money on the line to ensure that further misrepresentations and manipulations are not simply accepted at face value, without independent confirmation of results. This "game" of playing with dyno figures to show a significant competitive advantage that is simply not present, needs to end here.

We do not believe those results are accurate and it is very unlikely that the OP's car is making 25whp more than it did with our software. The OP has nothing to lose and everything to gain by acceptance of our offer. After the testing, the OP will know if his car really did gain what the dyno is indicating, and will receive the refund if in fact the dyno posted was accurate. The results will be posted on this thread.

In reponse to BT M3's post (#56), which indicates that akh23456 lost power with the powerchip tune versus a stock file, I'd like to inform you that the tune that lost power was created by Jeremy/OE himself. We fixed that file when this was brought to our attention, and to my recollection, the vehicle is now producing more power than in stock form (after Jeremy had already left Powerchip). Do you find it strange that the same tuner that LOST power over stock is now making 25WHP more than a Powerchip tune this time around?

I look forward to a non-confrontational approach in validating the OP's alleged gains.

Mike


PS: It should also be mentioned that most of the people who posted on this thread have vested interests in Gintani:
Sales@Alpine and RPM North and clearly trying to solicit customers as a result this unsubstantiated dyno comparison. M3Some works at Gintani and obviously has a vested interest. BT M3 has a vested interest, is a vendor, and his handle is "OE Tuning East" on ***********.com. Let's keep the bias out of this thread and focus on verification of these claims. Let's make sure that we all remain "Politically Correct."

Also: Why was no AFR graph posted? Anyone can make more power unsafely.
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      03-25-2011, 08:47 PM   #59
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Haloooo.. in before the lock
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      03-25-2011, 08:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyoshi71 View Post
Mike@Powerchip posted this in another thread. Seems like he's willing to drop the gloves and end all the bullshit by puting his money where his mouth is. Good for you Mike.
that's Powerchip
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      03-25-2011, 08:50 PM   #61
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      03-25-2011, 10:29 PM   #62
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Another manipulated graph:

[img]http://www.****************/DynoGraphs/ID00023-1288748405-JONMARTIN.jpeg[/img]


rpm % gain
2500
3000
3500
4000 4.6%
4500 5.7%
5000 6.0%
5500 6.2%
6000 6.4%
6500 6.3%
7000 6.7%
7500 6.8%
8000 6.6%



Two more suspect dynos:

[img]http://www.****************/DynoGraphs/ID00174-1288748665-MRHARRIS.jpeg[/img]

rpm % gain
2500 0.0%
3000 15.0%
3500 2.4%
4000 3.5%
4500 4.1%
5000 3.7%
5500 4.1%
6000 4.1%
6500 3.5%
7000 4.1%
7500 4.3%
8000 7.3%




[img]http://www.****************/DynoGraphs/ID00041-1288748425-NITERIDER.jpeg[/img]



rpm % gain
2500 -19.0%
3000 25.0%
3500 9.4%
4000 5.1%
4500 4.1%
5000 3.7%
5500 7.6%
6000 4.8%
6500 5.8%
7000 4.4%
7500 4.8%
8000 5.2%
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      03-25-2011, 10:31 PM   #63
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I will describe in order the graphs attached. Please note that the time of each run is displayed to show transparency. Details for the same run appear in the same color.

1. “All PC Baselines - run4,5,6 after a long cool down” - HP vs. AFR. base lines were run with a 20 minute cool down before running 4,5,6. This is to give the best possible baseline (which we used). I am a believer of “best vs. best”.
2. “All PC Baselines - run4,5,6 after a long cool down” - HP vs. Tq
3. “AFR baseline vs. Gintani-OE Tune (hot and cold runs)” - best PC baseline vs. Gintani/OE Tuned runs. Tuned runs warm and cooled down. (a 15 minute cool down in between runs) Note also AFR has changed.
4. “Tractive effort rear roller baseline vs. OE tuned” - Dynos reads “tractive effort” and calculates other variables form these figures. Directly related to Torque output.
5. “Road speed baseline vs. OE tuned” – Road speed is spot on displaying same “ramp up rate”
6. “Acceleration baseline vs. OE tuned” – Measured acceleration
7. “Ambient Pressure baseline vs. OE tuned” - Ambient Pressure
8. “Ambient Temperature baseline vs. OE tuned” – Ambient Temperature.
9. “Relative humidity baseline vs. OE tuned” – Relative Humidity

To give the PC tune the best possible chance to make power, a cool down time of 20 minutes was taken to see if numbers improved (check corresponding times on pictured runs). I/Alex are not like Powerchip, taking the least performing baseline run then comparing to the best tuned run. I hope that the attached dynos and the details are transparent. A variance of less than 1 degree in temperature is nothing I would expect to gain power from. In actual fact the environment was in PC’s favor each time. As Powerchip, staff and management, have never owned or plan to own a dyno, I find it hard for them to comment on the equipment used they know little about. Perhaps readers/”experts” can find something to nitpick over in these graphs?
I believe if you don’t know what you are doing or saying, don’t pick a fight with someone who will disprove you. I have many other failed PC dynos to post for those interested (other companies also). (Mike Benvo, mike@powerchip) came in today wanting to “fudge” numbers on our dyno to prove his agenda. I will clearly state: “We use and rely on the Dyno Dynamics weather station to control environment, which cannot be tampered with.” Benvo, turned off the weather station to perform manipulations to environment conditions, which causes an immediate on screen warning to notify of this happening. (Mike taking orders over the phone of what to do). Not the way to do things in business. Graphs posted give the details of what Benvo was told to look for.
We want real world conditions, or how do we know/prove our own products work? We will show as a courtesy to any and all customers wanting proof, the weather station is on, just to prove a point. We do what is right is the bottom line. We want our products to be the best no matter what or where the testing ground. Please test any and all our products independently just as others do.
I concentrate on tuning and product development, I have no time to gone on further.

Regards,

Jeremy
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      03-25-2011, 10:34 PM   #64
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Couple of things here:

1) I was at Gintani today returning my car to stock and their is ONE blown M3...Drews.

2) Why hasn't Mike Benvo posted since he dropped by Gintani this morning ?
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      03-25-2011, 11:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post

2) Why hasn't Mike Benvo posted since he dropped by Gintani this morning ?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=80

from the other recent OE tune dyno thread..
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      03-26-2011, 01:08 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phusion974 View Post
Never heard of one MB motor being blown by OE Tuning. I know quite a few guys that run the OE Tune on E63's, C63's, 65's....not one problem.
I know of one.. Zzz
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