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      03-21-2011, 08:39 PM   #45
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Erm no more blower ?
btw u gotta do us all a favor and hit the track to show everyone what a real supercharged s65 can do, i was on *********** and saw the thread on one of them running a 11.9@119...
..your car is definetly way deeper in the 11's im not sure went wrong with that car..
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      03-22-2011, 03:38 AM   #46
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Glad to hear everyones happy with these results.

Glad to see James posted these results too, shows some real life action.

James, I Emailed you back, we been super swamped...

for the rest, if you need a tune, we can set up a group buy if you'd like.

If you guys can get 5+ people together, we can get a pretty sweet deal!

This isnt a sale thread, so I dont want to get into detail, but feel free to PM with any questions!

If your in Poughkeepsie, NY, I got a tuner out there, if you're local, we got the home of OE, if you're any where else, we'll take care of you!!!

Dont forget, my prices will be the lowest of all! Including direct OE.
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      03-22-2011, 03:48 AM   #47
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Has anyone done 3rd party testing on these tunes?

Altering roller weights in between runs is an easy way to show gains, the average customer wouldn't know what you're doing with the dyno software either. I know first hand b/c I've done this before at an old job I was at for in-house products they were selling.

If someone has the flashing unit and would like some 3rd party testing I have a dyno location(dynojet) where we can test at. We'll leave the car strapped on the dyno to lower the amount of variables/inconsistencies and flash from stock to X tune and run it back to back.
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      03-22-2011, 04:16 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Tonester View Post
Has anyone done 3rd party testing on these tunes?

Altering roller weights in between runs is an easy way to show gains, the average customer wouldn't know what you're doing with the dyno software either. I know first hand b/c I've done this before at an old job I was at for in-house products they were selling.

If someone has the flashing unit and would like some 3rd party testing I have a dyno location(dynojet) where we can test at. We'll leave the car strapped on the dyno to lower the amount of variables/inconsistencies and flash from stock to X tune and run it back to back.
I'd like to see this happen. 3rd party testing is the best way to see legitimate gains.
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      03-22-2011, 04:49 AM   #49
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I'd be skeptical of any graph showing a modification making a constant percentage increase in power across the board.
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      03-23-2011, 10:21 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonester View Post
Has anyone done 3rd party testing on these tunes?

Altering roller weights in between runs is an easy way to show gains, the average customer wouldn't know what you're doing with the dyno software either. I know first hand b/c I've done this before at an old job I was at for in-house products they were selling.

If someone has the flashing unit and would like some 3rd party testing I have a dyno location(dynojet) where we can test at. We'll leave the car strapped on the dyno to lower the amount of variables/inconsistencies and flash from stock to X tune and run it back to back.
I have: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450302

probably 20 dyno runs and 200 BT logs.

I've also watched cars get tested before and after at this dyno dynamics while doing some tunes there. They are not unstrapped in between before and after tuning. All runs are done from the car (not the computer) (Before / after), with the handheld unit applying beginning run, load, and end run. The whole internet can speculate though .

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      03-23-2011, 10:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post

If 315whp is the lowest bone stock M3 result on this dyno, then 297whp would seem to be about 58whp too low for this configuration (315-297 40 = 58). That would mean this car would have produced only about 257whp when bone stock on this dyno (297-40 = 257). At the other end, if 325whp is a ‚€œnormal‚€Ě result for bolt-ons with this dyno, then how does one explain 393whp on the same dyno with nothing but bolt-ons? Feel free to draw your own conclusions what these results mean and how credible they are.
Robert, This also isn't the first time someones lost power over a stock file with a PC tune (akh23456). This assume all things equal - and in this industry it does not necessarily work that way. For all we know the PC ots could have came in at a 10.1 AFR at WOT with the long term fuel/ing trims maxed out and make poor power. This may have been logged you'd have to ask to OP.

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      03-24-2011, 08:59 AM   #52
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If anyone in the New York area is looking for an OE Tune we can do them in house now on Long Island. We have all the equipment to do them in our Plainview, New York facility. We are located right off exit 46 of the LIE and we are easy to get to from anywhere on Long Island. We are about 40 minutes from Manhattan.

We DO NOT have a dyno at our facility. We welcome everyone to use a dyno before and after but we do not have one at our facility. I am putting a list of local 2wd and 4wd dynos together that are local.

If you are interested in getting a tune, we can most likely handle all your needs. At this time we offer Active Autowerke and OE Tuning. We do not get involved in any pissing contests between shops and tuners. We do not push one tune over another tune we are just trying to deliver what the customers want and everyone is welcome in our shop. Whatever the customer desires, it is our goal to deliver that to them.

Hopefully this makes it easier for the New York guys to get what they need.

Hope to meet all your New York guys eventually.

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      03-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #53
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Dear M3post members:

Just wanted to touch base in this thread to inform the public of our position in this matter.

Powerchip does not believe that those dyno results are accurate by any means.

To prove that these results are most likely not realized gains, I have extended an offer to the OP which will give him the opportunity to have an independent shop verify those results at no cost to him.

This would entail dynoing the car with the software currently installed, and dynoing the car again with the Powerchip software that was previously installed.

We could involve Jeremy/OE Tuning if requested, and he can put the car back to stock so we never see his file. He obviously, already has our Powerchip file since that was his "base" for the tune presently installed in the vehicle.

Because we've heard of people playing with static correction values to produce paper gains, we feel it would be a positive contribution to the community for such gains to be verified. We caution taking dyno charts such as these at face value.

If in fact the OE tuning software makes 25Whp more than the Powerchip software, I am willing to extend a $690 refund to the OP. The dyno operation and lunch will be provided on the house.

A few days ago I sent the OP a message indicating our offer. He responded that he would be in touch and would contact OE tuning to see if they would like to be involved.

To date, I have not heard anything further. We are willing to put our time, resources, and money on the line to ensure that further misrepresentations and manipulations are not simply accepted at face value, without independent confirmation of results. This "game" of playing with dyno figures to show a significant competitive advantage that is simply not present, needs to end here.

We do not believe those results are accurate and it is very unlikely that the OP's car is making 25whp more than it did with our software. The OP has nothing to lose and everything to gain by acceptance of our offer. After the testing, the OP will know if his car really did gain what the dyno is indicating, and will receive the refund if in fact the dyno posted was accurate. The results will be posted on this thread.

In reponse to BT M3's post (#56), which indicates that akh23456 lost power with the powerchip tune versus a stock file, I'd like to inform you that the tune that lost power was created by Jeremy/OE himself. We fixed that file when this was brought to our attention, and to my recollection, the vehicle is now producing more power than in stock form (after Jeremy had already left Powerchip). Do you find it strange that the same tuner that LOST power over stock is now making 25WHP more than a Powerchip tune this time around?

I look forward to a non-confrontational approach in validating the OP's alleged gains.

Mike


PS: It should also be mentioned that most of the people who posted on this thread have vested interests in Gintani:
M3Some works at Gintani and obviously has a vested interest. BT M3 has a vested interest, is a vendor, and his handle is "OE Tuning East" on ***********.com. Let's keep the bias out of this thread and focus on verification of these claims. Let's make sure that we all remain "Politically Correct."

Also: Why was no AFR graph posted? Anyone can make more power unsafely.
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      03-24-2011, 02:18 PM   #54
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whoa.... .time for someone to step up to the challenge..... come out from behind your computer screens
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      03-24-2011, 03:05 PM   #55
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Great offer by PC to do a straight up comparison but from previous experiences with these types of issues, it will never happen. Too many reputations, people's credibility, etc on the line and usually one side backs out. It would be great for the community to actually see this happen but it almost never does. I give credit to PC for putting it out there though as it seems they are trying to say they having nothing to hide so bring it on.
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      03-24-2011, 03:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
Dear M3post members:

Just wanted to touch base in this thread to inform the public of our position in this matter.

Powerchip does not believe that those dyno results are accurate by any means.

To prove that these results are most likely not realized gains, I have extended an offer to the OP which will give him the opportunity to have an independent shop verify those results at no cost to him.

This would entail dynoing the car with the software currently installed, and dynoing the car again with the Powerchip software that was previously installed.

We could involve Jeremy/OE Tuning if requested, and he can put the car back to stock so we never see his file. He obviously, already has our Powerchip file since that was his "base" for the tune presently installed in the vehicle.

Because we've heard of people playing with static correction values to produce paper gains, we feel it would be a positive contribution to the community for such gains to be verified. We caution taking dyno charts such as these at face value.

If in fact the OE tuning software makes 25Whp more than the Powerchip software, I am willing to extend a $690 refund to the OP. The dyno operation and lunch will be provided on the house.

A few days ago I sent the OP a message indicating our offer. He responded that he would be in touch and would contact OE tuning to see if they would like to be involved.

To date, I have not heard anything further. We are willing to put our time, resources, and money on the line to ensure that further misrepresentations and manipulations are not simply accepted at face value, without independent confirmation of results. This "game" of playing with dyno figures to show a significant competitive advantage that is simply not present, needs to end here.

We do not believe those results are accurate and it is very unlikely that the OP's car is making 25whp more than it did with our software. The OP has nothing to lose and everything to gain by acceptance of our offer. After the testing, the OP will know if his car really did gain what the dyno is indicating, and will receive the refund if in fact the dyno posted was accurate. The results will be posted on this thread.

In reponse to BT M3's post (#56), which indicates that akh23456 lost power with the powerchip tune versus a stock file, I'd like to inform you that the tune that lost power was created by Jeremy/OE himself. We fixed that file when this was brought to our attention, and to my recollection, the vehicle is now producing more power than in stock form (after Jeremy had already left Powerchip). Do you find it strange that the same tuner that LOST power over stock is now making 25WHP more than a Powerchip tune?

I look forward to a non-confrontational approach in validating the OP's alleged gains.

Mike


PS: It should also be mentioned that most of the people who posted on this thread have vested interests in Gintani:
Sales@Alpine and RPM North and clearly trying to solicit customers as a result of this defunct, unsubstantiated dyno comparison. M3Some works at Gintani and obviously has a vested interest. BT M3 has a vested interest, is a vendor, and his handle is "OE Tuning East" on ***********.com. Let's keep the bias out of this thread and focus on verification of these claims. Let's make sure that we all remain "Politically Correct."


Quote:
Originally Posted by 808MGuy View Post
Great offer by PC to do a straight up comparison but from previous experiences with these types of issues, it will never happen. Too many reputations, people's credibility, etc on the line and usually one side backs out. It would be great for the community to actually see this happen but it almost never does. I give credit to PC for putting it out there though as it seems they are trying to say they having nothing to hide so bring it on.
+1, but I wonder, can the OP accept the offer even without OE Tuning involved? I mean, PC is paying for the dyno, and he has EZ Flash right? So he can dyno it on OE Tuning software, then flash it back to stock, dyno it on stock software, then Powerchip can dyno test their software by tuning it from the stock map, then flash it back to stock afterwards, so OP can use his OE Tuning tune once again.

Free dyno, free lunch, $690 refund? I'd be happy as a clam....

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      03-24-2011, 03:11 PM   #57
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Generally speaking any dyno that shows a constant, scalar-factored gain, has been tampered with. A perfect mirror image from before to after across the entire rpm range is not possible from ecu tuning.
I never did notice the symmetry between the graphs but now that you point it out its obvious. That would be near impossible to replicate that trend not only once but twice as its shown in the graph. Its like they created a button in the software "Increase power 25HP" and magically you get constant gain across the RPM band. Also noticed that the torque trend doesn't quite match up with the HP trend. There is usually a bit of correlation between the two which doesn't seem to match up.
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      03-24-2011, 04:06 PM   #58
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You're OE Tuning/Gintani results are not independent Bren; they're the farthest thing from it.

You have a screen name at another forum: "OE Tuning East." You're an OE Tuning and Gintani partner and reseller. You're aiding and abedding them with their habitual dyno tampering by re-telling their false story about the Dyno Dynamics software update. Even though your own dyno results are very nice, you made a point of telling people you did all of your dyno tests in the same gear, when all of the graphs you posted told a different story. Your baseline was 3rd gear, and your results were all in 4th gear. (Hint: just divide the hub torque by the flywheel torque and you get the gear ratio.)

I can't speak for Akash's results because I've heard multiple versions of that story -- including a contradictory one by the dyno operator himself. I wasn't there. The point it: I don't drink the kool-aid -- especially not 50-60whp worth of it on the OP's car. These dyno's were tampered. No two-ways about it.

I found data logging performance gains with the BT tools is completely inaccurate -- at least the way I found to use it. If you didn't see it, I wrote the Virtual Dyno using the BT tool. It seemed to work great for stock cars, but I noticed that once I started dealing with ECU tuned cars, the results went out the window and quit being accurate. I had some ECU tuned cars that read just like stock, and others that produced results inline with the supporting mods. So before (and after) I supercharged my car, I ran a series of tests with the virtual dyno as the car was on a real dyno. I discovered that my suspicion of the MSS60 ECU torque readings were correct. The torque readings from the ECU are programmed by the tuner. So the values read by the BT tool seem to be whatever the tuner programmed into it. I proved this by running the BT tool side-by-side on the dyno before and after the supercharger installation. Once supercharged, the BT tool read the same torque as the stroker, even though the dyno said I had about 80 ft/lbs more.

If you had a different method of performance logging with the BT tool, then please share it because it would greatly benefit the BMW community.

lol i dunno how i got involved in all of this but what did the dyno operator say and where did i dyno?( love all this made up stories..if you don't want to post the info here please pm me the dyno place that said other wise.) I have only posted what my car has put down and here a dyno from a full bolt on m3 with the Pc tune.
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      03-24-2011, 08:37 PM   #59
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your kidding right?

Thats called a proper tune.. gaining HP everywhere, not just peak.. thats what real tunes do..
I would be skeptical too, if you noticed the graph are nearly identical except for one makes more power... that exactly how it looks when you alter roller weights to show before/after "gains".

I have operated almost every dyno on the market except for Dynapak, when I used to "manipulate" dyno runs they would just like that.
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      03-25-2011, 12:00 AM   #60
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Just analyized the results and according to the data, it seems as if a dyno variable was modified inbetween the two runs which produced an inaccurate gain.

The first two graphs are cars that Jeremy dyno tuned himself from our Texas trip. You can see how the gain on the bottom end of the OP's new dyno is artificial.

Furthermore, the bottom graph shows the deviation. You can see that the third graph has an extremely low deviation and that further supports the presumption that a correction factor was applied, or an input variable was changed - causing the skew of the entire curve upward, instead of reflecting actual power related gains.

You can see the first two graphs have trouble with gain between 4000 and 5500, and then have a sizable gain through the midrange and top end. You can see the large gap inbetween the two curves on the third gap, which is not representative to how an M3 responds to tunes in that area. Also notable is that the largest increase in horsepower is between 4000 and 5500 RPM, which conflicts with the previous two cars that achieve their highest gain at later RPMs, and have the lowest gain at lower RPM's. The only thing that can explain this is an unwarranted correction to the graph to skew the results.

OP: Please let us know as we would like to schedule your dyno. Mathematically speaking it's impossible for the chart they gave you to not have been fabricated.
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      03-25-2011, 01:15 AM   #61
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M3's do not make ~25 horsepower more before/after tune at 4000rpm. The graphs I posted speak for themselves. I could put ANY M3 dyno in there and they would all conflict with the third graph.

http://oetuning.com/index.php/bmw-m3-e9x-4-0-v8.html

According to OE tunings graph, the M3 makes 350 ft/lbs of torque (in the link above).. Didn't know that..

Oh cool, it uses a google chart maker to show the gains, look at all the power I made over his tune:

http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?c...B,0,::2,0.5,-1

Same idea, get it?
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      03-25-2011, 01:18 AM   #62
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so your already saying that your morals are compromised. how do i know your not fudging the truth right now and twisting things to show what you want someone to believe? HHmm..

so mike@ powerchip. your taking the gains from different cars, and saying because the variable is more on some, and less on others, that means it was fake? what exactly are you on? add fuel, pull timing, vice versa, its gonna be different, some more than others on various cars.. thats what happens when you have someone tune a car.. its not just a +2 all the way through to get a "tune" well, not to everyone but the canned PC tunes I guess..
Dude what's the point of arguing. Powerchip has given the OP an incredible offer to back up OEtuning's claims at no extra charge and even the possibility of a $690 refund!!! If I was the OP I would also like to make sure the numbers I got are correct.
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      03-25-2011, 01:36 AM   #63
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Quote:
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because PC knows he wont take him up on the offer for all the time and trouble its worth, especially when Op is finally satisfied with a real tune. Especially when this isnt the first time PC has overpromised and under delivered
Jon Martin... that you? As I said, all the graphs are from cars that Jeremy tuned himself.

The OP is being mislead into thinking that his car now magically makes 25more whp than it did before. It's that simple.

We have $700 on the table. It's a win win situation for the customer. Jeremy need not be involved. It's his choice if he wants to be - he has the option of being there or not. It doesn't matter to me.

I'm not sure why you think anyone wouldn't take us up on such an offer, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. If the dyno the OP posted is correct, it will cost over $1K between the refund and dyno time.
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      03-25-2011, 01:50 AM   #64
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so your already saying that your morals are compromised. how do i know your not fudging the truth right now and twisting things to show what you want someone to believe? HHmm..

so mike@ powerchip. your taking the gains from different cars, and saying because the variable is more on some, and less on others, that means it was fake? what exactly are you on? add fuel, pull timing, vice versa, its gonna be different, some more than others on various cars.. thats what happens when you have someone tune a car.. its not just a +2 all the way through to get a "tune" well, not to everyone but the canned PC tunes I guess..
I did when when I was working for an employer... they signed my checks and they needed something done, it was my job to get it done. There is no gain for me to currently skew results like some of the people in the thread who have something to gain.

I am a 3rd party... I don't have any ties to any of the companies that are being mentioned in this thread. You can even throw a meet at the dyno location so we can have more people at hand to see the real results.

I'm also willing to be the facilitator of Powerchip's offer as well, I have a stock E90M3 that we can use all it has is a drop in filter.
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      03-25-2011, 02:04 AM   #65
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where are you getting your graphs from? from cars you have?
One of the charts is from my car - it's real and was from an independent shop in Houston.

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      03-25-2011, 02:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Now that you see this symmetry, go back and look at the last year's worth of dyno charts posted by that magic dyno in Van Nuys. Then go look in the OE Tuning web site blog at dyno results. I think you'll be amazed at how many charts look exactly like this. You'll also notice that these results only seem to appear on same dyno, and never at independent dynos. In my opinion, these are very clearly tampered results. You start by showing the the guy his tampered baseline result and tell him: "oh, our heart-breaker dyno really reads low...man. It's the Dyno Dynamics software update...man...it really makes this dyno read low man...pass the joint man." Then you adjust the correction factor back to what it should be (or higher), and dyno again. The poor gullible customer sees his results and thinks to himself: "oh man, these guys are amazing...look that I got 27whp gain over my last tune." And the poor gullible customer never questions why he had 297whp to begin with even though he had 40-45whp worth of mods on his car. The sad part...is these guys aren't even very good at tampering their dyno results or covering it up...yet these gullible customers never question what they were told.



Bren brought up your situation as if it had merit in this discussion. Discussing all sides of the topic is fair, balanced, and leads to an educated and better informed populace. I'm sure he expected me to respond. I made it very clear that I wasn't at the dyno and that I don't blindly believe what I'm told -- especially when there are conflicting stories about it. And I'm willing to bet Bren wasn't at the dyno either. That's the point I was making. I supposed if you were really curious how you got involved, you'd have to ask Bren why he brought you up; and then ask yourself why you voluntarily chose to respond. After all, nobody forced you to respond and involve yourself.


Come on Jon, use some common sense. Those two torque curves MUST converge together at low RPMs, or else the car would have 50 ft/lbs of torque when the motor is off. Those two torque curves don't even begin to merge together like they must, and are (as Mike pointed out) 10% apart across the entire RPM range. That type of constant gain across the full RPM range cannot happen without tampering. Tell you what, I'll give you $20 for each S65 dyno you can find, whether in the Dyno Database, or published on another car forum, and not run on that "special dyno" in Van Nuys that has a constant 10% torque gain from 2500-8400 RPMs.


The "truth" usually lies between two partially BS stories. You're implying that there aren't two versions of this story. Jon, I wasn't at the dyno any more than you were with me when I was told what the dyno operator said. I said up front that you're free to believe whatever you want -- whether it's about these multiple stories, or these tampered dyno results. People aren't as dumb as you think Jon.

The OP has everything to gain, and nothing to lose by accepting PowerChip's offer. And now knowing that PC doesn't even need access to his OE Tune and the OP can save/restore it from EZ Flash, if he doesn't accept it, he might as well admit he knowingly participated in the fraud.
I don't have anything against Jeremy or Gintani, but this dyno posting bothers me because xchosin1x was originally my customer at Powerchip, and I want to make sure that he doesn't think we gave him an inferior product.

I hope xchosin1x responds and accepts this. As you said, he can load his stock tune back with EZFlash, that makes the situation easier.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 03-25-2011 at 02:29 AM.
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