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      02-20-2011, 11:59 AM   #23
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Obviously Motoman's theory has been debated to death over the years. However, I agree with his theory on engine break in. The problem is that these engines have been run before at the factory prior to going into the car and then driven out of the factory, so essentially that small window of opportunity to work the piston rings is almost over. Once we take delivery, even at the Welt, we have an even smaller window of time to get the proper ring break in.

It would interesting if the factory offered a "break-in" option for a small fee (say $500). I'd pay it to have ability to drive the car however you wish right off the bat and not have to worry about the initial oil change and such. For ED, this would be great as you won't have to drive like you have a neutered car for the first few days.
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      02-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
It would interesting if the factory offered a "break-in" option for a small fee (say $500). I'd pay it to have ability to drive the car however you wish right off the bat and not have to worry about the initial oil change and such. For ED, this would be great as you won't have to drive like you have a neutered car for the first few days.
Before I lost patience and bought my car off the lot (which was not the plan when I woke up that morning), my ED plan was 3-4 days of moderate cruising/sightseeing, 1200 mi service, and a couple of days on the autobahn. In fact, they should use that itinerary in their marketing materials. "Break in your M and enjoy it before shipping it back to slowpoke America."
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      02-20-2011, 01:03 PM   #25
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BMW hands out loaner cars before the break-in period is up and those things get destroyed by each person that drives them. They still work just fine after that but you can tell they're not perfect. I think if you're only bad to it a little bit then you'll be ok.
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      02-20-2011, 03:16 PM   #26
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BMW will NEVER prescribe an aggressive break-in procedures also due to traffic regulations.

Last edited by Leonardo629; 06-25-2011 at 09:44 PM.
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      02-22-2011, 04:29 PM   #27
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I just got a call today from my local dealer...said the car alerted them it was ready for 1st maintenance. I just barely passed 600 miles.
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      03-12-2011, 10:11 PM   #28
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Sorry to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to ask a question. My SA really scared me about the break-in period saying it would damage the engine, drastically reduce power, and mis-align engine movement if I ever went over 5k on the tach or 70mph. Can someone please tell me this is not the case.... I haven't been red-lining my car, not even close. Probably 5 or 6 times i've slipped up to 6k when it shifts, but I've certainly travelled the freeways at 80 (as traffic moves that way in Florida).

I'm probably being overly cautious, but I just wanted to get some experience and comments from someone outside of the BMW dealership.
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      03-13-2011, 12:19 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmflukeiii View Post
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to ask a question. My SA really scared me about the break-in period saying it would damage the engine, drastically reduce power, and mis-align engine movement if I ever went over 5k on the tach or 70mph. Can someone please tell me this is not the case.... I haven't been red-lining my car, not even close. Probably 5 or 6 times i've slipped up to 6k when it shifts, but I've certainly travelled the freeways at 80 (as traffic moves that way in Florida).

I'm probably being overly cautious, but I just wanted to get some experience and comments from someone outside of the BMW dealership.
Wow this stuff is just hillarious. Honestly I had to call up my friend Charlie who I know as an engine builder and consultant for pro racing teams (Indy Car, F1 etc).

Conversation is as follows:

Me: Hey Charlie, what are you up to?

C: Not too much, we just had dinner I'm about to play on the simulator (He has a racing simulator they use to train pro racing drivers)

Me: So BMW service departments are now telling their M3 customers interesting things.

C: Yeah what's that?

Me: They're saying if you don't keep the car under 70 and under 5k you'll miss align the engine movement and drastically reduce power.

C: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about an engine.

Me: I don't know it it sounds pretty convincing. What if the crankshaft weights fall off and the ring seals de-seal.

C: He he, well then you'll have to hire Mickey Mouse to fix it, he'll know more than your service department. Ha ha.

Me: Yeah I honestly don't know how people get from a recomended break in proceedure by the manufacturer to it "mis-aligning" your engine and reducing power. It's like you're inventing science on the fly.

C: Well it's hard to find someone who knows how to deal with an engine. It's mystical to most people.

Me: The advice the service guys get probably comes from lawyers mostly, that's one problem.

C: Most corporate communication comes from lawyers.

Me: Yep , but I'm going to run, it was very nice talking.



To sumarize what one of the best engine builders in the world thought what your SA said was one of the worst things ever said about breaking in an engine.

In fact the stuff that made sense from what you SA said is the opposite of the truth.

Read my post on breaking in your car though:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=19
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Last edited by Legion5; 03-13-2011 at 12:41 AM.
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      03-13-2011, 06:09 AM   #30
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:cl ap:

jesus. I asked a question, it was nicely answered right below your post. Thanks for finding all those other posts for me, though. All those posts mean that someone reasked questions, but worded them in their own way, hence the point of the forum. For people to ask questions; quit deterring people.

Lesson learned, don't search and people will do it for you.

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Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Wow this stuff is just hillarious. Honestly I had to call up my friend Charlie who I know as an engine builder and consultant for pro racing teams (Indy Car, F1 etc).

Conversation is as follows:

Me: Hey Charlie, what are you up to?

C: Not too much, we just had dinner I'm about to play on the simulator (He has a racing simulator they use to train pro racing drivers)

Me: So BMW service departments are now telling their M3 customers interesting things.

C: Yeah what's that?

Me: They're saying if you don't keep the car under 70 and under 5k you'll miss align the engine movement and drastically reduce power.

C: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say about an engine.

Me: I don't know it it sounds pretty convincing. What if the crankshaft weights fall off and the ring seals de-seal.

C: He he, well then you'll have to hire Mickey Mouse to fix it, he'll know more than your service department. Ha ha.

Me: Yeah I honestly don't know how people get from a recomended break in proceedure by the manufacturer to it "mis-aligning" your engine and reducing power. It's like you're inventing science on the fly.

C: Well it's hard to find someone who knows how to deal with an engine. It's mystical to most people.

Me: The advice the service guys get probably comes from lawyers mostly, that's one problem.

C: Most corporate communication comes from lawyers.

Me: Yep , but I'm going to run, it was very nice talking.



To sumarize what one of the best engine builders in the world thought what your SA said was one of the worst things ever said about breaking in an engine.

In fact the stuff that made sense from what you SA said is the opposite of the truth.

Read my post on breaking in your car though:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=19
Thank you for this; that's what I was assuming seeing as even the top speed he quoted me is different from what the sticker on my windshield says. Its just that coming from someone at BMW who for the most part seemed incredibly knowledgeable about cars as well as the M, its hard to just disregard something like that they say to you.
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      03-13-2011, 08:26 AM   #31
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      03-13-2011, 08:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelrock View Post
I just got a call today from my local dealer...said the car alerted them it was ready for 1st maintenance. I just barely passed 600 miles.
Yes, it's giving you an opportunity to schedule an appt to get it done when you reach 1200. It's NOT telling you to service it at 600 miles.
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      03-14-2011, 09:31 PM   #33
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One thing you all are missing is the 1200 goes for all BMWs.
No it isn't.

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It's not that there is some M engineer standing in Munich with a double degree in mechanical engineering writing this "special" M manual for you and that the S65 is getting a special treatment.
Yes there is and yes we are.
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      06-09-2011, 02:50 PM   #34
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Sorry to bring up an old thread but would you say just driving the car in "D" mode during the break in period would be advisable? That way you don't really pass up the 5500 RPM threshold.

Let me know your thoughts.
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      06-14-2011, 12:58 PM   #35
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Sorry to bring up an old thread but would you say just driving the car in "D" mode during the break in period would be advisable? That way you don't really pass up the 5500 RPM threshold.

Let me know your thoughts.
Does not matter at all. I use a combination of both. And yes you can pass 5500 in D even with the gearbox in D2 mode it went up to 6k once before I noticed.
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      06-26-2011, 02:36 AM   #36
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This is what makes me want to physically be there when the truck arrives from the VPC and also think hard about buying a car off the lot. Most dealers seem to be very selective on allowing M3 test drives, but I would be very nervous that the lead foot who test drove the car with an unknowledgeable sales rep could impact my future driving experience.

My first test drive with a M3 the sales rep took me full throttle down a windy road to "show me" what a beast the car was...it only had 400 miles on it--so glad I got the one in the showroom---who knows what else happened those first 400 miles!
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      07-04-2011, 03:27 AM   #37
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I was told by BMW that the first fluids put in the M3 had special blend to help with break in and not to run the car at high RPM or high speeds and follow BREAK IN. I was also told the most important service is to have the fluids changed at the 1200 miles service. The fluids used in our cars during this time will protect the engine for only a short time and running the engine past 5k RPM would shorten the life of the Oil which could cause harm to vital engine and differential components...

Let’s think about BMW who has pushed the Oil service intervals even on a M cars to 10 to 15k per year depending how it’s driven. I remember in the old days when BMW did not pay for service and they recommended oil service every 6k miles. I would think something is different with the main fluids or important for the Diff & Engine fluids to be changed for BMW to mandate a change when they could save money and push it out to your first 15k service.

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      07-21-2011, 03:43 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asifali14 View Post
Sorry to bring up an old thread but would you say just driving the car in "D" mode during the break in period would be advisable? That way you don't really pass up the 5500 RPM threshold.

Let me know your thoughts.
As stated on the first page, keeping your car at low RPM will reduce engine power and engine life, this has been backed up unanimously by the best experts in auto racing. Racing an engine is the most serious test for an engine break in procedure where 1 horsepower or 1 lb/ft or an ounce of extra reliability can win or lose a race. All racing teams do the opposite of what BMW suggests. The BMW recommended procedure is designed to reduce risk, and minimize effort. It is an abysmally horrible thing to do to a car if you actually want it to perform because you can break in your car with less risk, longer life and increased power, all while driving it like you stole it.


Please see this post for clarification:


http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=19


Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTTOYS View Post
I was told by BMW that the first fluids put in the M3 had special blend to help with break in and not to run the car at high RPM or high speeds and follow BREAK IN. I was also told the most important service is to have the fluids changed at the 1200 miles service. The fluids used in our cars during this time will protect the engine for only a short time and running the engine past 5k RPM would shorten the life of the Oil which could cause harm to vital engine and differential components...
This thread is always a gold mine for good laughs whenever a dealer decides to make a statement on something.

Once again, I called up a friend from racing, one of the foremost experts in the world on engines, and got a good laugh about this.

- It is extremely unlikely (read: BS) that BMW uses a special break in oil for it's cars. Even if they did, it would be ridiculous to conclude that it would be designed for a specific break in procedure, that would actually be a terrible way to design oil.
- The most important service is to have the fluids changed at 1200 miles, but this is also at a minimum. Meaning the suggestion for how to break in the car is a horrible idea.
- Most engine oil during break in should be changed at 1200 miles or possibly less. BMW didn't design a special oil that only lasts 1200 miles. While gunning the car will mean you have to change the oil earlier, gunning the car and changing the oil early and often during the first few miles accomplishes the same thing of not damaging the engine, without being a terrible break in procedure that reduces life and power.

Quote:
Letís think about BMW who has pushed the Oil service intervals even on a M cars to 10 to 15k per year depending how itís driven. I remember in the old days when BMW did not pay for service and they recommended oil service every 6k miles. I would think something is different with the main fluids or important for the Diff & Engine fluids to be changed for BMW to mandate a change when they could save money and push it out to your first 15k service.
Changing the fluids at 1200 miles (preferably much less) is an absolute necessity to break in any high performance engine. The fact they do what's necessary to do doesn't imply anything.

Again the proper break in procedure that is expensive and requires a lot of effort is to change your oil multiple times in 1200 mile period while gunning your engine in controlled instances (see linked thread above after red text).

The cheap, and lazy break in procedure is what BMW suggests, and it's a terrible way to break in an engine. The only goals of BMW's break in procedure are to minimize risk and effort, it's not good for the car, it's just doing the minimum not to damage it. It's actually seriously ridiculous to go out of your way to adhere to the recommended procedure. Compared to the ideal procedure you will reduce power and life, and the best possible result is that you will avoid catastrophic damage to your car which most people do a good job of doing no matter what, and by spending all that effort you will actually negate the whole point of the BMW procedure which is for is to be lazy, meaning trying to go out of your way adhere to BMW's procedure is a prime example of wasting your time. If you're going to go out of your way use the procedure that racing teams use, those actually have a benefit. Otherwise just vaguely stick to the BMW way of doing it without much thought to it and pat yourself on the back when the engine doesn't blow.
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      07-21-2011, 05:20 PM   #39
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Legion5 - You do realize that your argument is totally illogical right?

You state that the best way to break-in the engine is to run it hard.

You state that BMW tells you not to break it in hard to "minimize damage" and "reduce risk". Risk of what? You just said running it hard was the best way to get "extra reliability".

Also - various manufacturers do use additional additives in the factory oil. Subaru for one used a specific oil in my 04 STi. I dont know if BWM does or not, but I wouldn't assume anything.
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      07-24-2011, 03:31 PM   #40
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The cheap, and lazy break in procedure is what BMW suggests, and it's a terrible way to break in an engine. The only goals of BMW's break in procedure are to minimize risk and effort, it's not good for the car, it's just doing the minimum not to damage it. It's actually seriously ridiculous to go out of your way to adhere to the recommended procedure. Compared to the ideal procedure you will reduce power and life, and the best possible result is that you will avoid catastrophic damage to your car which most people do a good job of doing no matter what, and by spending all that effort you will actually negate the whole point of the BMW procedure which is for is to be lazy, meaning trying to go out of your way adhere to BMW's procedure is a prime example of wasting your time. If you're going to go out of your way use the procedure that racing teams use, those actually have a benefit.
Do you actually believe that crap? You should educate yourself before spewing crap like that as fact.

Do you realize a racing engine's purpose is the complete opposite of a street engine ? It's designed to run flat out and last for a few races, so you break it in for maximum power, not longevity. A street engine like the S65 should last 100K miles, not 1K. As a side comment, most of these outrageous comments come from folks who don't even own an M3 .
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      07-24-2011, 05:23 PM   #41
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Do you actually believe that crap? You should educate yourself before spewing crap like that as fact.

Do you realize a racing engine's purpose is the complete opposite of a street engine ? It's designed to run flat out and last for a few races, so you break it in for maximum power, not longevity. A street engine like the S65 should last 100K miles, not 1K. As a side comment, most of these outrageous comments come from folks who don't even own an M3 .
First off thanks.

Actually I think my education in the automotive field is pretty well rounded. I've worked in many technical niches, from supercar design to top 10 Indycar teams (designing again), to sales, aftermarket installation, aftermarket parts engineering etc.

I am pretty well aware of the different purposes of racing engine and a street engine, I've worked around them for a long time. The connection that you're making is honestly one of the most naive views I've ever heard. While a street engine and a racing engine have different purposes, the break in doesn't care how the hell you're going to be using the engine. Your point is irrelevant.

With regard to your comment about my not driving an M3, I'm the process of upgrading to e92 M3 spec as commuter car. Besides that I have a tuned supercar who's major stock competition is a Bugatti Veyron and it's competitors, and other tuned supercars. I also own race cars so I'm no stranger to hardcore vehicles if you think that means anything.

With that said every single piece of info I've posted about the M3 break in, I've fact checked with engineers for F1 teams that I know through the racing world. Breaking in a car in is serious business and it's not something you want to get wrong, so I want to make sure what I post has some validity. If you'd like to refute any of my claims please include which multi-million dollar automotive entity you've engineered for and which field you PHD is in, because those were my standards of info.

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Legion5 - You do realize that your argument is totally illogical right?

You state that the best way to break-in the engine is to run it hard.

You state that BMW tells you not to break it in hard to "minimize damage" and "reduce risk". Risk of what? You just said running it hard was the best way to get "extra reliability".

Also - various manufacturers do use additional additives in the factory oil. Subaru for one used a specific oil in my 04 STi. I dont know if BWM does or not, but I wouldn't assume anything.
You're confusing the information I posed. Running the engine hard with multiple fluid changes in the first few dozen miles will improve the engine in every way. Running the engine consistently hard for the full 1200 miles without fluid changes will risk issues, due to the fluids being bad, this is what BMW doesn't want you to do and what basically constitutes their break in, avoiding bad fluids being run. Running the engine somewhat hard for the first few dozen miles in a very specific way and then running it as mildly as possible until the 1200 mile fluid change will improve performance, without significantly increasing the risk of running on bad fluids.

There are a few different ways to construct an engine that causes it to require a special break in oil. The 04 STI definitely require a special break in oil. The M3 based on my conversation with an M3 racing team that frequently rebuilds our engines, and researching the engine specs and consulting a few other people does not have any of the special conditions that require a special break in oil. It's just unlikely BMW made these engines require special additives.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a professional engine builder, I just KNOW some of the world's top engine builders, and have built a few engines, and made an atempt at a fair post that I fact checked but don't make off base points with only the most basic information.

Anyway I hope all this helps set some people straight.
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      07-25-2011, 01:35 PM   #42
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You're confusing the information I posed. Running the engine hard with multiple fluid changes in the first few dozen miles will improve the engine in every way. Running the engine consistently hard for the full 1200 miles without fluid changes will risk issues, due to the fluids being bad, this is what BMW doesn't want you to do and what basically constitutes their break in, avoiding bad fluids being run. Running the engine somewhat hard for the first few dozen miles in a very specific way and then running it as mildly as possible until the 1200 mile fluid change will improve performance, without significantly increasing the risk of running on bad fluids.

There are a few different ways to construct an engine that causes it to require a special break in oil. The 04 STI definitely require a special break in oil. The M3 based on my conversation with an M3 racing team that frequently rebuilds our engines, and researching the engine specs and consulting a few other people does not have any of the special conditions that require a special break in oil. It's just unlikely BMW made these engines require special additives.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a professional engine builder, I just KNOW some of the world's top engine builders, and have built a few engines, and made an atempt at a fair post that I fact checked but don't make off base points with only the most basic information.

Anyway I hope all this helps set some people straight.
I'm not confused at all. I think that breaking-in the engine hard *can* produce more power on certain engines. I also know that none of the people you have mentioned have tried the BMW method vs. theirs to see the difference in power - that is a fact based on the fact that they believe their method to be superior.

I think that the amount of power difference based on break-in philosophy of production motors is negligible in most cases, and the hard break-in could actually lead to a reduction in the life of the engine, vs the inverse you are suggesting. The main issues I have with you is calling the BMW procedure "terrible" - which clearly it is not. Suboptimal for max power by a couple of percent? Perhaps. Terrible? Clearly not...
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      07-25-2011, 05:08 PM   #43
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It is interesting to see all these heated discussions about break-in (another similar topic is frequency of oil changes). Maybe we should just write a letter to BMW and ask them to put this to rest?

Here is a piece of info I got from the primary source - when I was picking up my 335xi at the factory, it was one of the first US-spec 335xi delivered, and there was a bit of a gathering of the BMW people in the delivery center to show me the car and talk to me why I chose BMW, why XI and so on. When I said I was sad that I will leave Germany before the end of break-in period, so I cannot try it on Autobahn full speed, they looked genuinely surprised, as if I said I believe in Santa Claus. Then they told me not to worry much about break in because each engine goes though so much testing off and on the car that it's broken in already, and the procedure described was more of a precaution. Also, they mentioned that this car has been to well over 100MPH many times even before it's mileage started counting. The only thing they mentioned needed breaking in was brakes - no very rapid or prolonged braking till pads bed in. Also a soft recommendation to wary speed for first few hundred km. Not sure how/if this applies to M, but likely it's a very similar situation - I don't think testing of M engines is any less rigorous.
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      07-25-2011, 11:28 PM   #44
swamp2
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Wow misinformation galore...
  1. There are NOT abrasives in an lubricating oils in the M3 nor any other production car.
  2. The engine internals do not need to be heat cycled to harden them.
  3. The car most likely does not come with special break in fluids.

In addition:
  1. All modern engines are taken to redline multiple times in the factory likely before the engine and chassis are even mated.
  2. Factory break in procedures are probably as much or even more for the tranny and diff as the engine itself.
  3. Anecdotal evidence about soft vs. hard break in does not establish that one or the other will consistently produce a broken in engine with more power. This takes study, science and maybe some statistics to prove
  4. That being said it does appear pretty clear that most engines make more power after broken in than when totally fresh.

Lastly to Legion5:
Since you are so prone to calling folks out to list their experience/sources/degrees/etc. then that comes right back to you. Please tell us the F1 teams and engineers you've spoken with about engine break in and provide the exact (or nearly exact) quotes from them. Along with that knowing the schools and topic of their PhDs would be most insightful. The reason for my request is genuine and 3 fold.
  1. I don't buy the stark contrast between factory recommended procedures and the hard break in philosophy.
  2. It is not all that likely that some random motorbike mechanic (your existing reference) is in perfect agreement with a typical F1 team. Either way the quality of this source is not at all up to that of your other sources you mention.
  3. If your sources really are that good, I (and probably the forum members in general) stand to learn quite a bit on this topic and it may alter our behaviors in the future.

Thanks in advance.
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