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      03-01-2011, 08:16 PM   #67
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Round and round we go. It appears neither side will give in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Swamp, my feelings on this are that the answer to your question is absolutely irrelevant since no proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal and H-gated shifter has an automatic mode. In other words, the transmission has no ability whatsoever to shift automatically. It does not matter how the shifting is accomplished, it just matters that the driver must participate.
And when a DCT is in manual mode the driver MUST participate. Two levers, just like the two two levers in a MT. It is like two transmissions from some perspectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In order to avoid confusion, it makes most sense to call any transmission that has the ability to switch gear ratios by itself - without any driver involvment at all - an automatic transmission. Sure, we could call such transmissions "automanuals". That would perhaps be a better or more accurate term. The problem is that people have been calling this type of transmission an "automatic" for decades (since '41 according to Bruce) now and I don't see how it is necessary nor practical to rename them at this time, especially not at the behest of some new technology that is completely internal to the transmisison and does not change the driver's side of the shifting process.
I believe there is equal confusion caused by calling a DCT an automatic. You can not deny that folks associate a torque converter and the feel you have with that as well as the presenece of planetary gear sets a key part of "automatic".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And FWIW, yes, if someone designs a transmission that has a clutch pedal and yet still has an automatic mode - that's an automatic transmission. Why? Because it can shift by itself. Conversely, if someone designs a transmission with no clutch pedal that can only be shifted by the driver, then that is a manual transmission. In other words, going back to your first paragraph, the exact nature by which the shifting is accomplished is not important, the only thing that matters is whether gear ratios can be selected automatically or not. Simple.
It is far from simple when units have both automatic and manual modes. The choice of one name over the other leaves out half of the transmissions available modes.
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      03-01-2011, 08:24 PM   #68
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Damn, for a second I thought I had clicked on the "Advantages of a NA engine" thread.
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      03-01-2011, 08:38 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Ah, then you sure are going to be surprised when you read up on the North American Ford Fiesta. Starting to see what I mean now?
No manual mode perhaps? I'm not surpised at all - my ignorance of the latest greatest does happen. Pardon my title of "enthusiast" when I have not kept up on the latest Ford Fiesta However, to my credit, as soon as I heard about DCTs I knew they would eventually come in this form - no manual mode. Dual clutch still works but lacks some clarity. The most precise here would be automated dual clutch. And no that does not fully capture a DCT with manual modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I disagree. There's another more practical reason to use the term automatic though, like I said in my last post. And that is, to do what you suggest - to coin a new term - means that we now have call nearly every single transmission manufactured today that isn't a true manual an "automanual" or "automated manual" or whatever the term du jour is.
I obviously believe that what is inside the unit is nearly as important as how many or where the operating levers are located. An automatic transmission even the AMG MCT with buttons or paddles as opposed to a lever and button on the transmission tunnel are automatic transmissions. The removal of the torque converter in the MCT for take offs does not change 95% of everything else inside the box, complex bands and hydraulics, planetary gears and a fluid pump to control the hydraulics.

It is the engineering AND the interface which define a trasmission.

From (not the most authoritative web site but a good one still..), How Stuff Works,
Quote:
"The key difference between a manual and an automatic transmission is that the manual transmission locks and unlocks different sets of gears to the output shaft to achieve the various gear ratios, while in an automatic transmission, the same set of gears produces all of the different gear ratios."
Not my words just another source and perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
But modern torque-converter style transmissions use computers to shift now too. So by that same measure, these are semi-automatic transmissions as well.
Nope, replacing the human with a computer and hydraulics is not enough to change the name of the unit. It is the two clutches and essentially two manual transmissions in parallel that is the huge worthwhile innovation of a DCT to call it something different. DCT or automated manual.
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      03-01-2011, 08:46 PM   #70
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The M3 is offered with the choice of two different manual transmissions, a 6-speed and a 7-speed.
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      03-01-2011, 09:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Not sure even now what your point is, other than to rant, of course. You're showing a tinge of OCD on the topic.

It takes two to tango...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Again, and as others have pointed out to you, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Two pedals. It shifts itself or lets you shift it. Just like the 1941 Oldsmobile.
You can use whatever down home country boy expression you like, it does not make you right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
AHA! And here it is! It's the STIGMA that drives you!

Wow. If your ego is that brittle...
Always the diversion away from the topic and over to some pseudo/pop psychology meta post BS from you...

I fully embrace my personal choice and don't worry at all what that says about me. I like to debate issues from the technology and the performance to the naming. No ego really involved.

It is the engineering inside of the units that drives part of my passion. As well as the real world manifestation of the designs. The way that the feel informs you of what you are driving.

I also love beating up on luddites...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
For me, there is no stigma attached to automatics, and in fact, it's clear that for most uses, they're better performers than sticks - including the DCT and PDK autos, of course. I've been interested in the development and application of automatics ever since Jim Hall beat up on everybody in Can Am racing in his two speed (Powerglide) Chaparral more than forty years ago.
Traditionally automatics have been terrible in efficiency and terrible for road racing. You can come up with any isolated anecdote you like. Modern road racing uses manual, sequential manuals and dual clutch manuals in the vast majority of cases. The control is reason #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Now, automatics (of various technologies) have come of age, and they'll continue to improve. Sticks won't.
Pretty much agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I personally enjoy shifting, but sooner or later...
Ahhh yes, EGO, EGO, EGO. You need to make the distnction between what you like an what others like... I kid, I am playing your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
there appear to be persistent (though fairly minor) problems at low speeds. "Clunky" is a word used fairly often in this forum.
...
Whatever. It persists. From my point of view, this is a BMW problem, rather than an indictment of the technology, as the VAG folks never had problems as deep or as long.
I still deny this is any sort of problem. Sure you hear the thing, it is a manual after all on the inside! However, that doesn't make it clunky. Your bias here is pretty obvious. Go drive a new or fully updated unit to form a more accurate opinion. Reading the forums always biases one toward finding the enthusiast with the rare problem. I think you know that. Also quantitatively the number of threads and posts on DCT issues are literally down 1 or more orders of magnitude. Why because all the small (but annoying) glitches have been worked out.

Lastly can you humor me and name the VAG forum(s) you have followed and how closely you have followed them and for which of the plethora of VAG DSGs you have gathered evidence for to make that conclusion? I thought so.
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      03-01-2011, 09:20 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Y'know, by your definition, V8s, etc. are also "out of balance".

Nonsense. Yeah, yeah. Harmonics of whatever order. For me, if it is in first order balance, it is in balance. I think we're done here.
V8s are out of balance, both cross planes and flat planes but not for the reason I provided above. That goes back to the reason an inline 4 is out of balance. Large crank weights are required to bring either back into balance.

You need to realize that the term balance is both a practical as well a precise engineering term. Just because something feels smooth does not mean the engine is a balanced design. The word "nothing" as you used also has a precise meaning.

Easy to shrug off the details when you are wrong and don't want to admit it. Just call it nonsense or make up your own personal definition and call the discussion over.
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      03-02-2011, 12:41 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

I also love beating up on luddites...
Really? I am a major fan of this type of transmission, and have been ever since Porsche first introduced it, what, about 30 years ago? It is an absolutely wonderful idea, as I've mentioned a number of times. BMW's rollout, however, has been a joke. It's taken them, what, around three years to get it close to right? This is almost as bad as their recent foray into turbocharging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Traditionally automatics have been terrible in efficiency and terrible for road racing. You can come up with any isolated anecdote you like. Modern road racing uses manual, sequential manuals and dual clutch manuals in the vast majority of cases. The control is reason #1.
Are you off your meds? I mention anecdotally that I've been interested in the development of automatics ever since Jim Hall, and you say that I "can come up with any isolated anecdote" - to prove what, exactly? That I've been interested in the development of automatics ever since Jim Hall?

Take a pill. Take a shot. Calm down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I still deny this is any sort of problem. Sure you hear the thing, it is a manual after all on the inside! However, that doesn't make it clunky. Your bias here is pretty obvious. Go drive a new or fully updated unit to form a more accurate opinion. Reading the forums always biases one toward finding the enthusiast with the rare problem. I think you know that. Also quantitatively the number of threads and posts on DCT issues are literally down 1 or more orders of magnitude. Why because all the small (but annoying) glitches have been worked out.
Bias? I agree that BMW has (finally) quelled the issues, after a ridiculous amount of time. The last post on the lag issue (#1739, in this forum) was on 12/12/10, and it said that the lag was only noticeable on a 2011.5 model if you knew what you were looking for and really looked for it. Great progress, BMW.

VW/Audi never had problems as deep as this, and particularly not for this duration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Lastly can you humor me and name the VAG forum(s) you have followed and how closely you have followed them and for which of the plethora of VAG DSGs you have gathered evidence for to make that conclusion? I thought so.
Since I was so interested in the technology, I followed vw.Vortex very closely indeed. Minor issues at first rollout. Seemed mostly dealer related. Forget which Audi site I followed (mostly because we had an A6 4.2), but same deal.

Porsche has had a few problems, but again, BMW still holds the crown for worst rollout of this technology.

Oh, almost forgot. Just like the '41 Oldsmobile, you can shift the auto M3 or it shifts itself. No clutch pedal in either car. Automatics both.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 03-02-2011 at 12:54 AM.
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      03-02-2011, 09:32 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Round and round we go. It appears neither side will give in.
Swamp, you're getting so worked up here that you are now replying to the same posts twice with two completely different replies. See? Take a deep breath, man.

Quote:
And when a DCT is in manual mode the driver MUST participate. Two levers, just like the two two levers in a MT.
Same is true for any transmission with both an automatic and manual mode, as long as it does not automatically shift for you at redline in manual mode (which, as you know there are both DCT and planetary transmission that do and that do not). I know you know this to be true, so I am surprised that you continue to fixate on these properties only as they apply to DCT, and seem to carefully avoid associating any of your words with a modern planetary automatic transmission. It's like you are trying to pretend they don't exist or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
No manual mode perhaps? I'm not surpised at all - my ignorance of the latest greatest does happen. Pardon my title of "enthusiast" when I have not kept up on the latest Ford Fiesta
Swamp, come on, now you are resorting to mockery? You just cited your belief that there are no auto-only DCT's as support of using the term automanual. All I did here was enlighten you - and you want to mock that? Wow. Look, I respect you and what you bring to the forum, but I am going to have to echo what Bruce said earlier about your ego getting in the way here.

Honestly, I don't think its prudent to continue to the debate. We'll agree to disagree on this.
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      03-02-2011, 12:35 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
Damn, for a second I thought I had clicked on the "Advantages of a NA engine" thread.




Funny how all threads end up on the same DCT debate. Eventough I like manual transmission, I don't cara whether DCT or AUTO or whatever. What is important is that it works nice and that the gearing is right.
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      03-03-2011, 01:57 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Are you off your meds? I mention anecdotally that I've been interested in the development of automatics ever since Jim Hall, and you say that I "can come up with any isolated anecdote" - to prove what, exactly? That I've been interested in the development of automatics ever since Jim Hall?

Take a pill. Take a shot. Calm down.
No reason to get nasty.

I interpreted your comment about Jim winning with a 2 speed auto as some anecdotal evidence of how great automatic transmissions are for racing. My reply had nothing to do with your interests. You misread that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Bias? I agree that BMW has (finally) quelled the issues, after a ridiculous amount of time. The last post on the lag issue (#1739, in this forum) was on 12/12/10, and it said that the lag was only noticeable on a 2011.5 model if you knew what you were looking for and really looked for it. Great progress, BMW.
No argument that is should have been better on initial release and that it took too long to fix. However, where we differ is the real world impact of that on an objective measure of the overall quality and performance of the unit, bugs or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
VW/Audi never had problems as deep as this, and particularly not for this duration.

Since I was so interested in the technology, I followed vw.Vortex very closely indeed. Minor issues at first rollout. Seemed mostly dealer related. Forget which Audi site I followed (mostly because we had an A6 4.2), but same deal.

Porsche has had a few problems, but again, BMW still holds the crown for worst rollout of this technology.
OK you have followed some Audi DSG issues. They had issues as well. It wouldn't be beyond you to under/overstate the sides of your case to bolster your argument.

By the way did you also follow all of the other major DCT launches like Nissan and Mitsubishi. I'd be willing to bet all had some issues. Despite your claim about Porsche inventing (modern) DCTs so many decades ago true modern DCTs are very complex both in terms of their hardware and software. Some growing pains are expected and they happened with other brands as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Oh, almost forgot. Just like the '41 Oldsmobile, you can shift the auto M3 or it shifts itself. No clutch pedal in either car. Automatics both.
You are entitled to your opinion, me to mine. Unfortunately for you both a significant number of forum members here voted on their idea of the best and most accurate term and automatic did not win. Also as I mentioned most journalists prefer some term other than automatic.
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      03-03-2011, 02:34 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Swamp, you're getting so worked up here that you are now replying to the same posts twice with two completely different replies. See? Take a deep breath, man.
I don't see that not even now. Perhaps I am delirious...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Swamp, come on, now you are resorting to mockery? You just cited your belief that there are no auto-only DCT's as support of using the term automanual. All I did here was enlighten you - and you want to mock that? Wow. Look, I respect you and what you bring to the forum, but I am going to have to echo what Bruce said earlier about your ego getting in the way here.

Honestly, I don't think its prudent to continue to the debate. We'll agree to disagree on this.
You entirely missed my point. First I did not claim that there are no auto only DCTs. If you re-read my comment I only said I was not aware of them. Then I was making fun of my own ignorance! Then (I thought humorously...) I excused myself for not being up to date on a car that most enthusiasts will have very little interest in. I appreciated your use of that car as evidence and I did a little reading about it. If you felt mocking it was 100% misinterpretation and I'm sorry you felt that way.

You can believe what you want about ego. My feelings come from my passion for the technology and my strong belief in choosing the best jargon based on the criteria I have listed. I can just as easily argue that for you and Bruce to put so much effort into the "tango" that it must also involve some significant ego on your behalf. Typically I won't resort to that and will continue a debate at its face value. I'm also fine agreeing to disagree. I'm just not sure I can bite my tongue fully when the term automatic is used. Some of this absolutely comes from by background in science and engineering, i.e. the focus on the details of what is inside. To me that counts enormously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Same is true for any transmission with both an automatic and manual mode, as long as it does not automatically shift for you at redline in manual mode (which, as you know there are both DCT and planetary transmission that do and that do not). I know you know this to be true, so I am surprised that you continue to fixate on these properties only as they apply to DCT, and seem to carefully avoid associating any of your words with a modern planetary automatic transmission. It's like you are trying to pretend they don't exist or something.
I'm not sure how many more times I need to make my case. You can make yours and you have. I've agreed with you on some points. I just won't agree enough to change my opinion.

The traditional transmission names (auto/manual) due to historical norms have implications both on how each type of unit is designed, built and how it will feel and perform. There is also an implication on the user interface. I agree that modern transmissions both dual mode DCTs and modern paddle shifting autos (planetary autos specifically) blur some of these lines. However, to most accurately capture ALL aspects of these various criteria I believe either automated manual or dual clutch are superior terms over automatic for a dual clutch.

It is fairly clear that the source of the disagreement is that we each have different criteria. If we have different criteria we certainly won't come to an agreement.

Again, I'm fine to agree to disagree at this point.
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      03-03-2011, 09:32 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I don't see that not even now. Perhaps I am delirious...
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=65
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=74



Quote:
However, to most accurately capture ALL aspects of these various criteria I believe ...automated manual... superior term over automatic for a dual clutch.
I agree. And like I and many others have pointed out both now and in past discussions, you can apply the exact same logic for a modern planetary gear box as well. Thus I'll never agree that it makes sense to single out one type of gearbox over another as a justification to use new terminology, nor will I agree that such terminology should be applied selectively depending on the internal workings of the transmission. Logic dictates that you must either apply the new term unilaterally to all modern, computer controlled and highly advanced transmissions with both an automatic and manual mode, or you apply to none of them at all.

By that same token, there's nothing wrong with simply calling a DCT or DSG or PDK a dual clutch gearbox as long as you apply the same level of specificity to all other transmissions. So in that context, you then call BMW's Steptronic (for example) a torque converter planetary gearbox, and you call Mercedes MCT a wet-clutch planetary gearbox. What you cannot do though, logically, is call these latter types automatics, while at the same time refusing to apply that same term to a DCT. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to do so.

Not to repeat myself, but I'll say again that I personally am fine with using the traditional term "automatic" instead of coming up with new terms simply because the term automatic has been applied to "automanuals" for years now and I don't expect it will change. If you like your new term better then, great. I just don't agree that the DCT alone is cause to rethink the terminology. Rather, the time to rethink it was long ago. DCT is merely the latest in a series of innovations that break the mold of the automatic transmission.

Quote:
Again, I'm fine to agree to disagree at this point.
Well I tried, but I just had to make some counterpoints.
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      03-04-2011, 12:08 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...You are entitled to your opinion, me to mine...
Agreed. The difference is that I don't insist that others agree with my opinion.

i.e. I don't correct people when they use the term twin clutch, or automated manual, or whatever. For me, automatic works just fine, but hey, differentiate away. Just stop being the jargon police.

I'm done on this issue.

On a topic that is within waving distance of the OP, I'm starting to get a little excited at what the coming years are going to bring to automotive technology. While I'm almost certain to be pissed off about the new M3's size and weight, I'm betting that the loss of a liter (probably) and 12-1400 rpm will be more than made up for by having horsepower to burn, and stunning torque available pretty much everywhere in the rpm band. MPG will return to acceptability, as well.

Further, there appears to be a battle in transmission technology looming. Twin-clutch autos vs 27-speed (or whatever) planetary gears. It'll be very interesting to see how this plays out, market segment by market segment.

For me, it means that in a couple of years or so, I'll be joining the dark side with one of these transmissions, kicking and screaming. They're just so damn good...
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      03-05-2011, 02:27 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
If you like your new term better then, great. I just don't agree that the DCT alone is cause to rethink the terminology.
Agree. DCT does not represent the type. DCT is simply a type of sequential manual gearbox (as is SMG). Unfortunately BMW coined the term SMG and now the type is also a specific. In my opinion a manual is not a sequential manual nor an automatic, nor is a sequential manual an automatic. These all differ by function and operation and design, and each have their own merits.

What's most unfortunate (and often too common on this board) is when "automatic" is used as a term to cause hostility as much as a description of type function. You know who you are and should be flogged repeatedly for being so immature!
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      03-05-2011, 04:11 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well I tried, but I just had to make some counterpoints.
Well as long as we're being more civil I suppose we can continue, despite Bruce's good efforts to get back OT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I agree. And like I and many others have pointed out both now and in past discussions, you can apply the exact same logic for a modern planetary gear box as well. Thus I'll never agree that it makes sense to single out one type of gearbox over another as a justification to use new terminology, nor will I agree that such terminology should be applied selectively depending on the internal workings of the transmission. Logic dictates that you must either apply the new term unilaterally to all modern, computer controlled and highly advanced transmissions with both an automatic and manual mode, or you apply to none of them at all.

By that same token, there's nothing wrong with simply calling a DCT or DSG or PDK a dual clutch gearbox as long as you apply the same level of specificity to all other transmissions. So in that context, you then call BMW's Steptronic (for example) a torque converter planetary gearbox, and you call Mercedes MCT a wet-clutch planetary gearbox. What you cannot do though, logically, is call these latter types automatics, while at the same time refusing to apply that same term to a DCT. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to do so.

Not to repeat myself, but I'll say again that I personally am fine with using the traditional term "automatic" instead of coming up with new terms simply because the term automatic has been applied to "automanuals" for years now and I don't expect it will change. If you like your new term better then, great. I just don't agree that the DCT alone is cause to rethink the terminology. Rather, the time to rethink it was long ago. DCT is merely the latest in a series of innovations that break the mold of the automatic transmission.
I disagree. "Modern" automatics are small, evolutionary steps from "traditional" automatics. Using some software and moving a lever on the transmission tunnel to some buttons on the steering wheel is not a revolutionary change over a traditional automatic gearbox. Neither is adding a couple of extra gears. That is pretty much the Steptronic case. A "torque converter planetary gearbox" is both all traditional AND almost all modern automatics. The swap of a torque converter to a clutch on the MCT is, agreed, a larger change, but nothing at all like the jump from a manual to a DCT. Thus on the inside a "modern" auto is still incredibly close to a "traditional" auto.

On the other hand a dual clutch transmission is a very novel and revolutionary design. Two manuals, placed in parallel, with seemingly impossible multiple gears engaged simultaneously, made possible by twin, again concentric clutches and an all hydraulic and computer controlled actuation system with both full automatic and full manual modes. These systems are designed such that human control over the shift forks and pattern would be more or less impossible. They are designed from the ground up with the concept that the shifting will be done by mechatronics. That is revolutionary, not evolutionary (and that is why DCT is also so very different than SMG).

I'm sure you'll disagree...
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      03-05-2011, 04:43 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
What's most unfortunate (and often too common on this board) is when "automatic" is used as a term to cause hostility as much as a description of type function. You know who you are and should be flogged repeatedly for being so immature!
Although I agree with and thank you for the "support" in this regard ^ I will have to turn right around and disagree with your comments below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
DCT is simply a type of sequential manual gearbox (as is SMG). Unfortunately BMW coined the term SMG and now the type is also a specific.
DCT, sequential and SMG are quite different. All manuals at heart, so Ido think we agree on that. A SMG is nothing more than a truly standard manual with hydraulic/computer control added for the traditional clutch and traditional levers/forks. Late model SMGs has the small refinement that the shift patters ("gate progressions") were designed with no concern for human shifting, i.e. it was no longer a true MT factory retrofitted with the mechatronics. The SMG was a terrible name choice by BMW since the unit absolutely is not a sequential. Marketing wanted a "race oriented" name and that they got. A sequential is unique (a typical motorcycle transmission as you know) in that it is basically a traditional MT but it has the limitation that you can ONLY shift one gear up or one gear down at at time. It has the advantage that the gear selector is always a simple single double action lever. Sequentials can be (and are) improved/refined with automation/mechatronics as well. Neither DCTs nor SMGs are sequential as gears can absolutely be skipped. DCTs also differ greatly from sequentials on the inside. But they are still more related internally than say a MT to and automatic or DCT to automatic.

Bringing the term sequential back to mkoesel's approach for naming is an interesting topic. What should a sequential transmission be called? I would guess his name would simply be manual transmission. That is certainly not terrible, however, obviously, the VAST majority of the automotive world felt a new term was needed and chose one - "sequential" or "sequential manual". Perfectly fine with me. In cars they tend to be used exclusively in racing. Also they do have a unique identifying feature/character to their user interface - the single, dual action gear selector. Works under my naming scheme, just call it a sequential manual. That captures the design, internals, interface, experience (a typically very firm, fast, and notchy actuation) and even the appropriate/understood "connotations".
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      03-05-2011, 09:52 AM   #83
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I did not create this thread to talk about gearboxes, but about how the M3's V8 can be compared to the Ferrari flatcrank V8, and how the next TT I6 could be compared with the MP4-12C TT V8, if M does their homework properly.
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      03-05-2011, 10:30 AM   #84
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Pre- Rated EPIC!

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      03-05-2011, 11:44 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
DCT, sequential and SMG are quite different. All manuals at heart, so Ido think we agree on that. A SMG is nothing more than a truly standard manual with hydraulic/computer control added for the traditional clutch and traditional levers/forks. Late model SMGs has the small refinement that the shift patters ("gate progressions") were designed with no concern for human shifting, i.e. it was no longer a true MT factory retrofitted with the mechatronics. The SMG was a terrible name choice by BMW since the unit absolutely is not a sequential. Marketing wanted a "race oriented" name and that they got. A sequential is unique (a typical motorcycle transmission as you know) in that it is basically a traditional MT but it has the limitation that you can ONLY shift one gear up or one gear down at at time. It has the advantage that the gear selector is always a simple single double action lever. Sequentials can be (and are) improved/refined with automation/mechatronics as well. Neither DCTs nor SMGs are sequential as gears can absolutely be skipped. DCTs also differ greatly from sequentials on the inside. But they are still more related internally than say a MT to and automatic or DCT to automatic.

Bringing the term sequential back to mkoesel's approach for naming is an interesting topic. What should a sequential transmission be called? I would guess his name would simply be manual transmission. That is certainly not terrible, however, obviously, the VAST majority of the automotive world felt a new term was needed and chose one - "sequential" or "sequential manual". Perfectly fine with me. In cars they tend to be used exclusively in racing. Also they do have a unique identifying feature/character to their user interface - the single, dual action gear selector. Works under my naming scheme, just call it a sequential manual. That captures the design, internals, interface, experience (a typically very firm, fast, and notchy actuation) and even the appropriate/understood "connotations".
Good points. Keep in mind also a rider may skip gears in traditional motorcycle gearboxes as well. Especially in racing applications where typically riders do multiple downshifts via one clutch engagement while under hard braking (usually at the end of a high speed straight followed by a low speed corner). Some manufacturers have even experimented with handlebar mounted button-operated sequential manuals.

Personally I like sequential manuals to describe all types. Yes you can skip gears by pulling the lever in quick succession but only 2 at a time. It's still a manual input from the driver.

And sorry to Levi for this thread becoming so jacked.
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      03-05-2011, 09:26 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Good points. Keep in mind also a rider may skip gears in traditional motorcycle gearboxes as well. Especially in racing applications where typically riders do multiple downshifts via one clutch engagement while under hard braking (usually at the end of a high speed straight followed by a low speed corner). Some manufacturers have even experimented with handlebar mounted button-operated sequential manuals.

Personally I like sequential manuals to describe all types. Yes you can skip gears by pulling the lever in quick succession but only 2 at a time. It's still a manual input from the driver.

And sorry to Levi for this thread becoming so jacked.
You can not really skip gears. Even with a two click operation during one clutch in, that "skipped" gear is actually physically engaged. That is the essense of the sequential, SMG and DCT can truly skip gears.

Indeed, sorry to Levi a well, this was a MASSIVE off topic onslaught...

The mods could clean up the thread pretty easily. Anyone can report threads that are crass, OT or anyhting else that may violate forum rules. Just click the little reg/white/black exclamation point in the lower left under the avatar area in a post.
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      03-05-2011, 10:43 PM   #87
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3.0L TT? Yeah right.

The specs are probably going to be something like:

3.6L TT I6 @ 450HP

The HP rating probably won't be a big jump, as I imagine M division will probably be focusing more on weight savings.
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      03-06-2011, 08:27 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
3.0L TT? Yeah right.

The specs are probably going to be something like:

3.6L TT I6 @ 450HP

The HP rating probably won't be a big jump, as I imagine M division will probably be focusing more on weight savings.
3.6l TT I6 with only 450 HP? I do not see any efficiency. What is then the purpose of having it twin turboed? A NA 3.6 I6 would make 450 HP (125 HP/l), just as the Ferrari 458 Italia and the "old and cheap" Honda S2000.
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