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      02-28-2011, 05:09 PM   #45
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Tt m engine with high redline, sounds like a win
+1 if they can make this thing redline ≥8,000 they may not have lost me after all.
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      02-28-2011, 05:37 PM   #46
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The most recent version of C&D reports I6TT.

As far as power, really hard to know with a turbo engine. We have no idea how they plan to tune it...
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      02-28-2011, 07:28 PM   #47
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It won't be a V6 on the M3 F32, but can be on the next one, if the world hasn't yet come to an end. A V6 should be at 60 but the M5's V8 is at 90....
Yup. There's nothing "out of balance" on a V6 if it's got 60 degree banks. Even if it had 90 degree banks (which would be the obvious move if BMW decided to build one, because of existing tooling), you could either add the Mitsubishi balance shafts (patents have probably run out), or split the crank throws a la GM to get a perfect 120 degrees between power strokes.

Advantages of the V6 architecture are a shorter, more compact engine and a stiffer crank for any given design.
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      02-28-2011, 07:57 PM   #48
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You, me, this forum and the majority of the automotive journalists agree that dual clutch transmissions should be called automated manuals (or just simply dual clutch). I've also corrected your statement above using bold.
You've "corrected" "shifts itself" to "Can shifts itself"? Shall I now correct you by eliminating the extra "s"?

In point of fact, as with any auto (dating back to that '41 Olds "Hydramatic"), it shifts itself, or you can manually shift it. Plus of course it has two pedals instead of three. I continue to call it an automatic (just like all those other designs), but I don't mind a bit if you call it something else. Just try not to flash your nomenclature badge all over the place. You lack authority.

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Perhaps you can explain the essential difference between pulling a paddle and pushing a lever and pulling a lever at the same time? Wow those things are REALLY different...
I have no damn idea what this paragraph means. Really.

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I have no glitches in my DCT. Sure it shifts a bit slow and clutching can be odd when cold (even here in CA). Other than that with the latest software it pretty darn well flawless. Also - it does not take any "adjustment" period.
The one I drove was fine when you were chasing after it (spectacular, in fact), but not very smooth on takeoff, or in slow-speed shifting. I continue to read about folks who have hesitation problems (reluctance to pick a gear) at very low speeds.
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      02-28-2011, 10:15 PM   #49
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theoretically what would be the advantages of an I6 TT vs a V6 TT ?
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      02-28-2011, 10:42 PM   #50
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theoretically what would be the advantages of an I6 TT vs a V6 TT ?
Inherent smoothness due to it being naturally balanced. A V6 would require balancing shafts to get the same effect, but will never quite be as smooth. I suggest looking this up on google/wikipedia. Too complex to go through in detail here.
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      02-28-2011, 11:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Shall I now correct you by eliminating the extra "s"?
Sure, correct away.

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I have no damn idea what this paragraph means. Really.
What is the difference between the human actuation required to shift an automated manual vs. a traditional manual with a cluch pedal? In one you pull a paddle, in the other you push a foot lever (clutch) and then push or pull a hand lever (gear shift lever). Either way the process is IN ESSENCE, FOR BOTH TRANSMISSIONS, a manual process (literally manual meaning with the hand). It seems to be nothing more than pride and you curmudgeonly attitude that drives you to separate these two forms of a manual transmission. There is no reason to let a computer and some hydraulics intimidate you. A dual clutch, despite these systems is more like a manual inside and out, even in your precious "cockpit centric" point of view. One lever has replaced two levers. Wow what a difference. I mean its huge...

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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
In point of fact, as with any auto (dating back to that '41 Olds "Hydramatic"), it shifts itself, or you can manually shift it. Plus of course it has two pedals instead of three. I continue to call it an automatic (just like all those other designs), but I don't mind a bit if you call it something else. Just try not to flash your nomenclature badge all over the place. You lack authority.
Why resist clarity in communication? Despite recent advances in modern automatic transmissions there is a very strong and deserved stigma associated with them. Traditionally they have been a poor choice for road course enthusiasts/racers. You can make that your personal mission to change that stigma and I'd only say good luck. Alternatively to indicate the immense differences inside the units (DCT vs. traditional automatics), the real world FEEL and OPERATIONAL differences, as well as something that describes the precious number of levers in the user interface, there is a logical choice - call an apple an apple. Automated manual or dual clutch are the better terms, period. You seem to continue to reject these to sort of minimize these products and lump them into a class with a ton of stigma. It has nothing to do with authority, it is about correct and effective terminology which under most circumstances you seem to care about very much.

You can continue to use any term you want. I'll continue to be critical of your choice.

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The one I drove was fine when you were chasing after it (spectacular, in fact), but not very smooth on takeoff, or in slow-speed shifting. I continue to read about folks who have hesitation problems (reluctance to pick a gear) at very low speeds.
I'm not sure what you drove. I've never, even 2 software updates prior, had any smoothness issues whatsoever. I've also never had and take off issues whatsoever. I've never had problems where the system could not pick a gear. There have been two major M-DCT problems both addressed to about a 90%+ level or better (100% for sure for the first). One is a delay between upshifts done manually and the actual shift. The other is the much discussed lag, which although absolutely DCT related, was most likely a throttle control issue.

The transmission behaves wonderfully at either a granny pace or a race pace. Of course dual clutch units only continue to get better, higher torque capacities, improved software, lower parasitic losses, etc.
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      02-28-2011, 11:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
.



The one I drove was fine when you were chasing after it (spectacular, in fact), but not very smooth on takeoff, or in slow-speed shifting. I continue to read about folks who have hesitation problems (reluctance to pick a gear) at very low speeds.
I'll admit that DCT can be a bit clunky at very low speeds (< 15 mph). Particularly when the transmission is cold and you're getting out of the parking lot, it might feel like a 16 year old is riding the clutch. However, it's still very much controllable and driveable in these situations. It certainly hasn't affected my ability to drive in a safe manner - it just takes a few days to get used to. It can also be circumvented fairly easily (use aggressive shift mode, hold as high a gear as possible at low speeds, etc.).

I personally haven't had any hesitation issues *knock on wood* , and my understanding is that these have been largely sorted out.


My biggest complaint about the transmission (which no one here has mentioned, surprisingly) is that the 'automatic' mode ("D") is absolute rubbish. Unlike the brilliant manual transmission modes, pretty much any D mode I have used has proven to be laggy, clunky, and generally unpredictable. I am never quite sure what gear it will place me in, irrespective of my throttle input. One can only expect so much out of an automatic transmission, but for a transmission with 7 gears, it has all the smoothness and versatility of a 4-speed toyota transmission. This is a pretty small gripe though, as I hardly ever let the car shift for me.

And IMO, calling the DCT an 'automatic' transmission does not really do it justice. On a technical, and more importantly, on a practical level, its operation is quite different from your traditional automatic.

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      02-28-2011, 11:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Yup. There's nothing "out of balance" on a V6 if it's got 60 degree banks.
Wrong. Without rotating balancing shafts a 60 V6 can't achieve secondary balance.

Any V6 no matter the bank angle is inherently unbalanced. Any inline engine with an odd number of pistons has a primary (rocking) imbalance. Put two of these odd cylinder engines together into the V6 design and you still have primary imbalance. You can get rid of the primary imbalance with counterweights but no matter what the bank angle, any V6 takes both masses and rotating shafts to achieve both first and second order balance.
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      02-28-2011, 11:24 PM   #54
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The abscence of a NA engine will be one strike against the F3x, the abscence of a manual tranny will be the deathnail! It seems pretty obvious the TT is on the way,be it I6 of V6, and this I can live with. However, no manual option is a total deal breaker.
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      02-28-2011, 11:33 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip View Post
Bruce, are you calling the PDK a auto as well? Because it's not.
I can (obviously) answer that . Bruce calls any dual clutch transmission such as the BMW M-DCT, VAG DSG, Porsche PDK, Ferrari F1 dual clutch, Nissan GT-R dual clutch, Mitsubishi TC-SST, etc., etc. an AUTOMATIC transmission.
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      02-28-2011, 11:38 PM   #56
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What is the difference between the human actuation required to shift an automated manual vs. a traditional manual with a cluch pedal? In one you pull a paddle, in the other you push a foot lever (clutch) and then push or pull a hand lever (gear shift lever). Either way the process is IN ESSENCE, FOR BOTH TRANSMISSIONS, a manual process (literally manual meaning with the hand). It seems to be nothing more than pride and you curmudgeonly attitude that drives you to separate these two forms of a manual transmission. There is no reason to let a computer and some hydraulics intimidate you. A dual clutch, despite these systems is more like a manual inside and out, even in your precious "cockpit centric" point of view. One lever has replaced two levers. Wow what a difference. I mean its huge...
Sorry you're completely missing the point... A DCT completely removes the driver from the operation of shifting the car, all you do is choose up or down and when the shift occurs.

In a manual car you also control the shift quality which can either be performed smoothly and efficiently causing a warm gooey sensation right in the middle of your gut or unsmoothly leading to your passengers head bouncing off the dashboard and the car audibly smacking you with groaning and grinding from the gearbox.

The point is you can derive satisfaction from a manual shift, which can't happen if the car doing it for you... only marvel at the cars own abilities, which IMO gets old really fast.

Besides if shifting just involves moving pushing a pedal and moving a lever everyone could do it and the fact is driving manual properly is a skill not possessed by everyone.

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I can (obviously) answer that . Bruce calls any dual clutch transmission such as the BMW M-DCT, VAG DSG, Porsche PDK, Ferrari F1 dual clutch, Nissan GT-R dual clutch, Mitsubishi TC-SST, etc., etc. an AUTOMATIC transmission.
They are. They are just torque converter less automatics.

To further expand... what is the new merc AMG box? It's a true automatic mated to a wet clutch instead of a torque converter... yet this will operate with identical performance to any dct box. Is it an automatic? semi-automatic? What about the new lambo independent shift rod box? Is it a manual or semi-manual because it's a single clutch design mated to what is essentially a normal manual box? The point is the line has become so blurred that anything that has the ability to shift itself is an automatic gearbox irrelevant of the process involved.
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      03-01-2011, 05:07 AM   #57
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Sorry you're completely missing the point... A DCT completely removes the driver from the operation of shifting the car, all you do is choose up or down and when the shift occurs.

In a manual car you also control the shift quality which can either be performed smoothly and efficiently causing a warm gooey sensation right in the middle of your gut or unsmoothly leading to your passengers head bouncing off the dashboard and the car audibly smacking you with groaning and grinding from the gearbox.
I offer some agreement with you here. There is no denying a wide range of control over the speed and intensity of both clutching, throttle and shifting. That being said you are also forgetting that most DCTs offer some level of control over the exact same things by software. Have you experimented between say M-DCT Drivelogic modes D1 and S6. Talk about dramatic. You control the outcome with various aspects of MT shifting control, similarly you select the Drivelogic mode and get almost the same end result with M-DCT.

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The point is you can derive satisfaction from a manual shift, which can't happen if the car doing it for you... only marvel at the cars own abilities, which IMO gets old really fast.
I firmly disagree. I continually marvel at the programming and performance of my M-DCT and how it allows me to customize my shifting. You simply can not make my objective enjoyment of using and shifting my DCT any less than your enjoyment of using and manually shifting a MT.

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Besides if shifting just involves moving pushing a pedal and moving a lever everyone could do it and the fact is driving manual properly is a skill not possessed by everyone.
There are a lot of folks who can shift manuals. It ain't exactly rocket science. There is a lot of pride on the line here. Wouldn't you say that far less folks can successfully pilot a sports car around a road coarse often at the limits of lateral or for/aft acceleration while holding the coarse line? To me that is much more what "driving" is about that rowing a couple of levers really quickly.

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They are. They are just torque converter less automatics.
As you can see I plainly disagree. I believe the term is neither technically nor "conveniently" correct nor useful for these units.

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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
To further expand... what is the new merc AMG box? It's a true automatic mated to a wet clutch instead of a torque converter... yet this will operate with identical performance to any dct box. Is it an automatic? semi-automatic?
It is a good question. The AMG MCT unit is more or less a conventional 7 speed automatic transmission with a wet clutch instead of a torque converter (as you stated). But the wet clutch is ONLY for starting the car off from a stop. I think the best term for this transmission is an automatic transmission. However, a slightly more descriptive term is taken direct from AMG - a "semi-automatic". The also use the name "dual clutch semi-automatic" which I object to as "dual clutch" is now a somewhat common and understood term which means an automated manual such as the big list true "parallel" dual clutches I gave above. Last but not least this unit does not perform at all like a good DCT, it's best shifts are about 300% slower.

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What about the new lambo independent shift rod box? Is it a manual or semi-manual because it's a single clutch design mated to what is essentially a normal manual box? The point is the line has become so blurred that anything that has the ability to shift itself is an automatic gearbox irrelevant of the process involved.
The ISR (probably not made Lamborghini) is absolutely an automated manual or dual clutch transmission. It simply adds a very small bit of refinement to the shifting mechanism to make it faster. Very nice unit. I'd love to get my hands on a drive of one.
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      03-01-2011, 08:55 AM   #58
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Perhaps you can explain the essential difference between pulling a paddle and pushing a lever and pulling a lever at the same time?
Swamp, my feelings on this are that the answer to your question is absolutely irrelevant since no proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal and H-gated shifter has an automatic mode. In other words, the transmission has no ability whatsoever to shift automatically. It does not matter how the shifting is accomplished, it just matters that the driver must participate.

In order to avoid confusion, it makes most sense to call any transmission that has the ability to switch gear ratios by itself - without any driver involvment at all - an automatic transmission. Sure, we could call such transmissions "automanuals". That would perhaps be a better or more accurate term. The problem is that people have been calling this type of transmission an "automatic" for decades (since '41 according to Bruce) now and I don't see how it is necessary nor practical to rename them at this time, especially not at the behest of some new technology that is completely internal to the transmisison and does not change the driver's side of the shifting process.

And FWIW, yes, if someone designs a transmission that has a clutch pedal and yet still has an automatic mode - that's an automatic transmission. Why? Because it can shift by itself. Conversely, if someone designs a transmission with no clutch pedal that can only be shifted by the driver, then that is a manual transmission. In other words, going back to your first paragraph, the exact nature by which the shifting is accomplished is not important, the only thing that matters is whether gear ratios can be selected automatically or not. Simple.
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      03-01-2011, 01:29 PM   #59
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Swamp, my feelings on this are that the answer to your question is absolutely irrelevant since no proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal and H-gated shifter has an automatic mode. In other words, the transmission has no ability whatsoever to shift automatically. It does not matter how the shifting is accomplished, it just matters that the driver must participate.

In order to avoid confusion, it makes most sense to call any transmission that has the ability to switch gear ratios by itself - without any driver involvment at all - an automatic transmission. Sure, we could call such transmissions "automanuals". That would perhaps be a better or more accurate term. The problem is that people have been calling this type of transmission an "automatic" for decades (since '41 according to Bruce) now and I don't see how it is necessary nor practical to rename them at this time, especially not at the behest of some new technology that is completely internal to the transmisison and does not change the driver's side of the shifting process.

And FWIW, yes, if someone designs a transmission that has a clutch pedal and yet still has an automatic mode - that's an automatic transmission. Why? Because it can shift by itself. Conversely, if someone designs a transmission with no clutch pedal that can only be shifted by the driver, then that is a manual transmission. In other words, going back to your first paragraph, the exact nature by which the shifting is accomplished is not important, the only thing that matters is whether gear ratios can be selected automatically or not. Simple.
I have not left your point unexamined, there is certainly some logic in it, yet I still disagree.

DCTs have both a manual mode AND and automatic mode. While in the automatic mode (although you can absolutely still feel that these suckers are "manuals" on the inside) certainly from the user interface perspective it "is" an automatic. I've never argued otherwise. However, it is ONLY an automatic from ONE single perspective, that of the user interface. In stark contrast, when in manual mode (once you get over this hang up of two steering wheel paddles vs. the floor "paddle" and transmission tunnel "paddle" in the traditional MT) then it is a manual transmission in ALL key regards (user interface, feel and internal construction). Now that being said you do not hear me erring on the other side of the argument and calling DCTs manuals. They aren't. Even though I believe they are more manual than automatic (for the exact reasons above), I won't use purposefully loaded words. Surely you can not argue that "automatic", especially in performance circles, is not a loaded word.

Again call a horse and horse and call it a DCT. Also since no DCT I'm aware of has only an automatic mode or only a manual mode the term automated manual is also perfect. Well automatable manual is even a bit better but that's sort of splitting hairs...(and sounds a bit corny...). There is no reason other than pride/"politics"/ludditism to choose the term - automatic - which again drastically misconveys key parts of the design and experience of the system.
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      03-01-2011, 02:02 PM   #60
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Didn't matter what they were based on, the S engines are significantly different. I'd rather see a V6 anyway just for the compactness.
Not to mention if they are going to be doing the high rev turbo motor it will probably last longer. The S54 powerplant in the E46 M3 with its long crank put a lot of pressure on the crankshaft bearings. The shorter crank with a V6 will probably lend itself better to the high rev concept along with the FI. I do feel the smoothness and linear power delivery of the I6 may be lost though if BMW went with a V6 (which I still don't think they will do).

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      03-01-2011, 02:05 PM   #61
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Swamp, my feelings on this are that the answer to your question is absolutely irrelevant since no proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal and H-gated shifter has an automatic mode. In other words, the transmission has no ability whatsoever to shift automatically. It does not matter how the shifting is accomplished, it just matters that the driver must participate.

In order to avoid confusion, it makes most sense to call any transmission that has the ability to switch gear ratios by itself - without any driver involvment at all - an automatic transmission. Sure, we could call such transmissions "automanuals". That would perhaps be a better or more accurate term. The problem is that people have been calling this type of transmission an "automatic" for decades (since '41 according to Bruce) now and I don't see how it is necessary nor practical to rename them at this time, especially not at the behest of some new technology that is completely internal to the transmisison and does not change the driver's side of the shifting process.

And FWIW, yes, if someone designs a transmission that has a clutch pedal and yet still has an automatic mode - that's an automatic transmission. Why? Because it can shift by itself. Conversely, if someone designs a transmission with no clutch pedal that can only be shifted by the driver, then that is a manual transmission. In other words, going back to your first paragraph, the exact nature by which the shifting is accomplished is not important, the only thing that matters is whether gear ratios can be selected automatically or not. Simple.
Agreed, there you go again with logic.
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      03-01-2011, 03:14 PM   #62
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DCTs have both a manual mode AND and automatic mode.
Absolutely, and so does BMW's Steptronic (OEM ZF 8 speed), and many similar transmissions used by just about every other automaker. So yes, lot's of different types of modern transmission offer both manual and automatic modes.

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Also since no DCT I'm aware of has only an automatic mode or only a manual mode the term automated manual is also perfect.
Ah, then you sure are going to be surprised when you read up on the North American Ford Fiesta. Starting to see what I mean now?

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There is no reason other than pride/"politics"/ludditism to choose the term - automatic - which again drastically misconveys key parts of the design and experience of the system.
I disagree. There's another more practical reason to use the term automatic though, like I said in my last post. And that is, to do what you suggest - to coin a new term - means that we now have call nearly every single transmission manufactured today that isn't a true manual an "automanual" or "automated manual" or whatever the term du jour is.

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Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip View Post
There's a difference. The DCT is a "semi-automatic". That's why it has been named so. The only thing that makes the thing an auto is software programming.
But modern torque-converter style transmissions use computers to shift now too. So by that same measure, these are semi-automatic transmissions as well.
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      03-01-2011, 06:03 PM   #63
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...What is the difference between the human actuation required to shift an automated manual vs. a traditional manual with a cluch pedal? In one you pull a paddle, in the other you push a foot lever (clutch) and then push or pull a hand lever (gear shift lever). Either way the process is IN ESSENCE, FOR BOTH TRANSMISSIONS, a manual process (literally manual meaning with the hand). It seems to be nothing more than pride and you curmudgeonly attitude that drives you to separate these two forms of a manual transmission. There is no reason to let a computer and some hydraulics intimidate you. A dual clutch, despite these systems is more like a manual inside and out, even in your precious "cockpit centric" point of view. One lever has replaced two levers. Wow what a difference. I mean its huge...
Not sure even now what your point is, other than to rant, of course. You're showing a tinge of OCD on the topic.

Again, and as others have pointed out to you, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Two pedals. It shifts itself or lets you shift it. Just like the 1941 Oldsmobile.


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Why resist clarity in communication? Despite recent advances in modern automatic transmissions there is a very strong and deserved stigma associated with them. Traditionally they have been a poor choice for road course enthusiasts/racers. You can make that your personal mission to change that stigma and I'd only say good luck. Alternatively to indicate the immense differences inside the units (DCT vs. traditional automatics), the real world FEEL and OPERATIONAL differences, as well as something that describes the precious number of levers in the user interface, there is a logical choice - call an apple an apple. Automated manual or dual clutch are the better terms, period. You seem to continue to reject these to sort of minimize these products and lump them into a class with a ton of stigma. It has nothing to do with authority, it is about correct and effective terminology which under most circumstances you seem to care about very much.
AHA! And here it is! It's the STIGMA that drives you!

Wow. If your ego is that brittle...

For me, there is no stigma attached to automatics, and in fact, it's clear that for most uses, they're better performers than sticks - including the DCT and PDK autos, of course. I've been interested in the development and application of automatics ever since Jim Hall beat up on everybody in Can Am racing in his two speed (Powerglide) Chaparral more than forty years ago.

Now, automatics (of various technologies) have come of age, and they'll continue to improve. Sticks won't.

I personally enjoy shifting, but sooner or later...

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I'm not sure what you drove. I've never, even 2 software updates prior, had any smoothness issues whatsoever. I've also never had and take off issues whatsoever.
So what. I did - and there appear to be persistent (though fairly minor) problems at low speeds. "Clunky" is a word used fairly often in this forum.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I've never had problems where the system could not pick a gear. There have been two major M-DCT problems both addressed to about a 90%+ level or better (100% for sure for the first). One is a delay between upshifts done manually and the actual shift. The other is the much discussed lag, which although absolutely DCT related, was most likely a throttle control issue.
Whatever. It persists. From my point of view, this is a BMW problem, rather than an indictment of the technology, as the VAG folks never had problems as deep or as long.

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The transmission behaves wonderfully at either a granny pace or a race pace.
Yours does. Others don't.

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...Of course dual clutch units only continue to get better, higher torque capacities, improved software, lower parasitic losses, etc.
Agreed
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      03-01-2011, 06:05 PM   #64
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Bruce, are you calling the PDK a auto as well? Because it's not.
Yeah, I'm calling it an automatic, for obvious reasons. Shifts itself, two pedals...
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      03-01-2011, 06:09 PM   #65
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Wrong. Without rotating balancing shafts a 60 V6 can't achieve secondary balance.

Any V6 no matter the bank angle is inherently unbalanced. Any inline engine with an odd number of pistons has a primary (rocking) imbalance. Put two of these odd cylinder engines together into the V6 design and you still have primary imbalance. You can get rid of the primary imbalance with counterweights but no matter what the bank angle, any V6 takes both masses and rotating shafts to achieve both first and second order balance.
Y'know, by your definition, V8s, etc. are also "out of balance".

Nonsense. Yeah, yeah. Harmonics of whatever order. For me, if it is in first order balance, it is in balance. I think we're done here.
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      03-01-2011, 06:10 PM   #66
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I can (obviously) answer that . Bruce calls any dual clutch transmission such as the BMW M-DCT, VAG DSG, Porsche PDK, Ferrari F1 dual clutch, Nissan GT-R dual clutch, Mitsubishi TC-SST, etc., etc. an AUTOMATIC transmission.
Yes.
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