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      02-27-2011, 03:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Being a little dramatic aren't we? BMW has been dumping their heritage left and right these days. That applies even more so to M cars. As a company BMW is a far cry from their past. Aside from the badge and shape of the rear side windows, it's difficult to see any lineage in the first BMW I ever owned, a 1976 2002, and today. Nonetheless a 90 degree V configuration is a more efficient configuration for power, and the compactness makes it easier to place in the chassis for optimal handling. I don't care what they do as long as they do it well. Personally I'd prefer a screaming NA 4-banger in an ultra-light compact chassis but since BMW doesn't care about their lineage then why should I?
well put.
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      02-27-2011, 03:17 AM   #24
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who cares. The engine won't make up for the numb automatic gearbox only chassis.
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      02-27-2011, 03:23 AM   #25
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who cares. The engine won't make up for the numb automatic gearbox only chassis.
Uh oh, here we go... 6MT vs DCT debate...

Are you one of those guys who calls a DCT an automatic...

Have you driven the M-DCT (or better yet driven it extensively)? It does not feel perform or act anything like a traditional slush box.
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      02-27-2011, 03:42 AM   #26
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I am willing to bet a large sum of money that the next M3 won't have a TT V6. BMW has done some things that are questionable in the last few years however I don't think they are going to abandon inline sixes for V sixes now or down the road. They make the best inline sixes in the world, I am quite sure they are going to stay with what they know.
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      02-27-2011, 03:48 AM   #27
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you took the words right out of my mouth! nothing shocks me any more.

and if they base the new m3 engine on the n55 or n54 or w/e (ie going back to what they did before the s65), then imtho, they should lower the price of the f3x m3. afterall, those savings should be passed down to the remaining loyal ///m enthusiasts. its the least they could do after throwing the handbook out the window.
If they base the new M3 engine on the N55 or N54 it won't just be an N55 or N54 with more boost. It will be an S55 or S54 with significant revisions and improvements to make it worthy of being an M engine, at least I hope it is worthy of being an M engine.

If the new M don't satisfy, I am sure Porsche will still be making a 911 with an NA power plant that will satisfy.
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      02-27-2011, 07:21 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Uh oh, here we go... 6MT vs DCT debate...

Are you one of those guys who calls a DCT an automatic...

Have you driven the M-DCT (or better yet driven it extensively)? It does not feel perform or act anything like a traditional slush box.

I drove a twin clutch tranny for 2 years...I agree it is far from a slushbox but nothing beats the control you have over a car with a clutch pedal. Or the fun of throwing a lever with a nice mechanical feel. If they could come up with a way of having a selectable neutral in between gears I may think about getting one again.
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      02-27-2011, 09:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I am willing to bet a large sum of money that the next M3 won't have a TT V6. BMW has done some things that are questionable in the last few years however I don't think they are going to abandon inline sixes for V sixes now or down the road. They make the best inline sixes in the world, I am quite sure they are going to stay with what they know.

It won't be a V6 on the M3 F32, but can be on the next one, if the world hasn't yet come to an end. A V6 should be at 60 but the M5's V8 is at 90. Also, it looks like the next Aston Martin Vantage may get a Turbo 2.5l I6 engine, and the next Virage a Turbo 5.0l V12, two inline sixes put together. The V6 compactness is nice for Audi, but for BMW is has less advantages. If compactness is important, there is then nothing better than a small V8, but the M3 won't get this.
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      02-27-2011, 11:41 AM   #30
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If, and that's a big IF, BMW has a need to put a six cylinder in any of the upcoming FWD cars (including Mini), I can see them justifying the need for a V6. But I just don't see why they would want a V6 in a FWD car, since the whole point of that class is to have a smaller, more space efficient and fuel efficient model, so I'd think they will be limited to 3 and 4 cylinder engines.

And as far as pedestrian crash regulations, they've already managed to get the I6 to work with the F10 5er, and the F32 3er, without making them look horrendous (at least the F10 5er, since I haven't seen a clear pic of the F32). So, I'd bet that there's no V6 in the near future.

What I do wonder is how Porsche has managed to wring out 400+ HP from a naturally aspirated flat 6, along with good torque figures, and have done so reliably, yet BMW has chosen to drop that from the equation.

I truly feel that if it's strictly the MPGs they are worried about, then a lighter chassis (by about 300 lbs), is key, and they can go to a 3.5 L I-6 naturally aspirated that puts out 420 hp or so, and have a car that's as quick as the E9X M3, but more fuel efficient. However, I think they would lose the war on paper with MB and Audi, as their numbers would look better, despite the fact that a 3300 lbs M3 with a 420 hp I-6 would be one smooth and agile handling car.
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      02-27-2011, 12:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

Uh oh, here we go... 6MT vs DCT debate...

Are you one of those guys who calls a DCT an automatic...

Have you driven the M-DCT (or better yet driven it extensively)? It does not feel perform or act anything like a traditional slush box.
I've driven most of the dual clutch boxes. They work fantastically but it's still an automatic gearbox... Maybe not in a technical aspect given it lacks a torque converter but in function it's operates exactly like a fully automatic box.

Besides even if the new m3 has a manual (which it won't) it still won't make up for it being the size of an 80's 7 series with a curb weight of a 90's 5 series and the steering feel of a early 2000's Merc.
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      02-27-2011, 01:00 PM   #32
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3. Two major corporate wide programs at BMW, "Material Cost Offensive" and "BMW Group Modular Strategy". NOT having a special one-off engine for either the M3 or the M5 dove tails right in with these strategies.
Yes but who's to say a V6 couldn't be part of a new strategy of more economical turbo engines? BMW simply cannot continue to produce vehicles with average fuel economy in the teens (including and especially M cars). The fact BMW released the X5 M rated at 17 mpg hwy is mind boggling.
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      02-27-2011, 02:01 PM   #33
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The fact BMW released the X5 M rated at 17 mpg hwy is mind boggling.
Well when you can charge $100k for what is essentially a $50k car with a 7 series engine and a different intake manifold it makes sense financially.
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      02-27-2011, 03:29 PM   #34
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I've driven most of the dual clutch boxes. They work fantastically but it's still an automatic gearbox... Maybe not in a technical aspect given it lacks a torque converter but in function it's operates exactly like a fully automatic box.
You could put me blind in a M-DCT and a normal torque converter auto and I could tell you instantly which is which. They feel different because on the inside they are incredibly different. One is a manual inside and the other is...well... an automatic inside. Although there is indeed some convergence in feel and shift times epecially with never "locking" automatics the DCT is still superior in shift times and feel.

Are you really that pessimistic about the next gen M3?
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      02-27-2011, 04:33 PM   #35
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You could put me blind in a M-DCT and a normal torque converter auto and I could tell you instantly which is which. They feel different because on the inside they are incredibly different. One is a manual inside and the other is...well... an automatic inside. Although there is indeed some convergence in feel and shift times epecially with never "locking" automatics the DCT is still superior in shift times and feel.

Are you really that pessimistic about the next gen M3?
Yea I am, but to be fair I've become that pessimistic about all new bmws. It's not just the gearbox or turbo thing (both of which I disagree with but can stomach), it's the change in philosophy from developing and marketing a car with a focus on the actual task of driving instead the current design philosophy which gives priority to an array of gadgets and gizmos and makes sacrafices in the actual driving experience.

I'm not against the tech, I'm against buying a 4000lb ipad that has a secondary function of transportation.
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      02-27-2011, 05:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
If they base the new M3 engine on the N55 or N54 it won't just be an N55 or N54 with more boost. It will be an S55 or S54 with significant revisions and improvements to make it worthy of being an M engine, at least I hope it is worthy of being an M engine.

If the new M don't satisfy, I am sure Porsche will still be making a 911 with an NA power plant that will satisfy.
youve seen my other posts, so u know where im heading.
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      02-27-2011, 05:25 PM   #37
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M now stands for ///Marketing. All they want is $. The rule book has been thrown out the window. An engine being worthy of the M badge? Bah, BMW doesn't care. As long as it sells, they'll put a plastic M badge on it. M owners won't just get normal plastic stickers..we'll get plastic stickers. O Joy.
geez, you make too much sense.

and ill say it again, if they use the n55 and turn it into the s55 or w/e, then the new m3s price should reflect that. but because ///Marketing is so greedy, of course they are going to charge the same price or more.
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      02-28-2011, 10:19 AM   #38
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Just watch the F10 M5 for a good predictor. That too will use an engine based on the on from the series car - in that case an S63 V8 derived from the N63 V8 used in the 5, 6, 7 and X5. Smart money says there will be a price increase from the E60 M5, and I expect it to be fairly significant. Figure $95k as a starting price, at least.

As for the V6 for the next M3 - there's one big problem that makes that unlikely. That is, it will cost a heck of a lot more to develop a new V6 block than to simply use the I6 block they already have. If and when BMW changes to a V6 architecture for their standard engine someday in the future then, and only then, will the M3 get a V6. In fact, for the same reason ($$$), the M3 would also not retain the I6 should the corporate 6 move to a V layout. By and large, BMW is doing eveything they can to consolidate engine design and parts sharing because they are now spending so much of the powertrain budget on making cleaner more efficient engines.


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geez, you make too much sense.

and ill say it again, if they use the n55 and turn it into the s55 or w/e, then the new m3s price should reflect that. but because ///Marketing is so greedy, of course they are going to charge the same price or more.
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      02-28-2011, 10:58 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Yes but who's to say a V6 couldn't be part of a new strategy of more economical turbo engines? BMW simply cannot continue to produce vehicles with average fuel economy in the teens (including and especially M cars). The fact BMW released the X5 M rated at 17 mpg hwy is mind boggling.
Indeed.
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      02-28-2011, 11:34 AM   #40
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x 2

I have been preaching this for 2 years. The sooner you stop making the association of redlines higher than 7000 rpm with M cars, the less disappointed you will be. Just an advice.

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S65/S85, basically the same engine were completely new developments, and AMG's answer was the NA 6.2l V8. The 1M revs as high as any 135i, 335i, X6 xDrive35i, so it is not special. Anyway we'll know more, it seems the M3 F32 engine is sitting in the Vision Connected Drive.
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      02-28-2011, 12:06 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Uh oh, here we go... 6MT vs DCT debate...

Are you one of those guys who calls a DCT an automatic...

Have you driven the M-DCT (or better yet driven it extensively)? It does not feel perform or act anything like a traditional slush box.
Pay no attention, Serious. Swamp just can't bear to call the M3 automatic an automatic, even though it shifts itself and has no clutch pedal.

To be fair, if adjusted properly, it's a really terrific automatic - although BMW can't seem to tune out the last of the low-speed glitches.
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      02-28-2011, 03:51 PM   #42
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Yea I am, but to be fair I've become that pessimistic about all new bmws. It's not just the gearbox or turbo thing (both of which I disagree with but can stomach), it's the change in philosophy from developing and marketing a car with a focus on the actual task of driving instead the current design philosophy which gives priority to an array of gadgets and gizmos and makes sacrafices in the actual driving experience.

I'm not against the tech, I'm against buying a 4000lb ipad that has a secondary function of transportation.
Does this point of view also render a negative opinion of the following incredibly tech rich cars:

McLaren MP4-12C
Ferrari 458 Italia
Ferrari 599 GTO
Nissan GT-R
Bugati Veyron

Many of those are quite serious drivers cars.
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      02-28-2011, 04:11 PM   #43
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Pay no attention, Serious. Swamp just can't bear to call the M3 automatic an automatic, even though it can shifts itself and has no clutch pedal.
You, me, this forum and the majority of the automotive journalists agree that dual clutch transmissions should be called automated manuals (or just simply dual clutch). I've also corrected your statement above using bold.

Perhaps you can explain the essential difference between pulling a paddle and pushing a lever and pulling a lever at the same time? Wow those things are REALLY different...

Quote:
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To be fair, if adjusted properly, it's a really terrific automatic - although BMW can't seem to tune out the last of the low-speed glitches.
I have no glitches in my DCT. Sure it shifts a bit slow and clutching can be odd when cold (even here in CA). Other than that with the latest software it pretty darn well flawless. Also - it does not take any "adjustment" period.
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      02-28-2011, 04:31 PM   #44
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Does this point of view also render a negative opinion of the following incredibly tech rich cars:

McLaren MP4-12C
Ferrari 458 Italia
Ferrari 599 GTO
Nissan GT-R
Bugati Veyron

Many of those are quite serious drivers cars.
Not at all, all that tech is designed to improve the cars performance... BMW's current marketing and development focus seems to be on connected drive, internet connectivity, and a whole other slew of other fairly useless gizmo's to get all the tech geeks excited... While they are losing the driver involvement aspect of the cars.

I can't think of one new technology that makes BMW's better to drive than before. More convenient yes, but not more smile inducing.
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