BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-22-2007, 09:34 AM   #23
E36325is
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 1M coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hong Kong

Posts: 220
iTrader: (0)

I seriously doubt any header upgrade would yield a HP gain of more than 10hp. Unless there is a turbocharger inside the header!
E36325is is offline   Hong Kong
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 10:53 AM   #24
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2015 M4 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 7,482
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Engine mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
To those people who think they can get 60-80 hp without FI and without sacrificing reliability: what are you smoking/dreaming? This will be a $60k+ car, which has a brand image to protect and plenty of other high performance cars to compete against and all. What makes you think BMW will release it with that kind of untapped potential? If they could have designed the headers to provide the additional 30 hp, they would have. This is not some Honda Civic you bolt parts onto (with the exception of FI) and see a drastic difference. Somebody even mentioned software. Give me a break. So, you're telling me someone else can write better software for this car then the highly trained engineers who designed the car in the first place and know the engine parameters inside out? Again, that kind of tweak works with lower end cars that are tuned down due to fuel economy, emissions, and noise concerns. Except for the emissions criteria, I doubt that BMW is too concerned with the rest in the M3. And if you want to go screw with you emissions, that's another story (then you can even remove the converter or something stupid like that).
While I agree with your basic point, the issue you need to remember is that mass-market (relatively) cars like the M3 are compromises. They must meet a wide range of consumers' needs and dare not stray too far from refinement. If a person wants to tune the car for more specifically for performance, giving up other things, increases will be possible. Software would primarily be to take advantage of things like CAIs, race cats and exhaust. Such increases are obviously very limited and it is much easier to extract more power from a turbo engine.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2015 M4 Coupe - Silverstone/Sakhir/CF
2012 ML350

Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 04-22-2007 at 11:46 AM.
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 11:23 AM   #25
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Forget Forced Induction

There will be few mods you can do for the new S65 and the biggest limitor is the 12:1 compression ratio.

At 12:1 compression ratio, forced induction is not going to happen for the new M3 no more than the current M5 / M6 (which has the same compression ratio). There is the Osh "800hp" twin turbo M5 for $350,000 but this is just someone with pipe dreams.

M cars come tuned aggressively from the factory so the only areas for focus for tuning is where BMW had to make compromises for the street....
  • Camshafts (but you will lose that sweet flat torque curve for high end power)
  • Shorter Rearend (like the Dinan 3.91)
Even ECU tunes for the M5 / M6 have yielded limited benefit. A guy on the M6 board had headers, exhaust, Dinan 3.91, ECU tune and Kelleners cams only got another 5 mph trapspeed over 1/4 mile over a stock M6.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 12:18 PM   #26
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Well, cars like the M3 are in the boundary between the mass-market and the custom built pieces. So, I am saying that the factory M3 is much more refined than your average mid-range car when it comes to performance. In the end, everything is a trade-off--any kind of design process is comprised of a series of trade-offs. That is exactly what I am saying: if you are willing to trade off things like reliability and emissions for performance, you can. Heck, you can make the thing perform a space flight if you spend enough and disregard other civilized considerations. But then do you want a race car, or do you want something you can drive on the street? If you want a race car, there are much better options than the M3 out there. That said, I still assert that it is not possible to gain 60-80hp by simply replacing headers and programming ECUs on this thing. Maybe 20hp in total, which you most likely will not feel during daily driving conditions, but not 60-80hp.
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 12:24 PM   #27
ksfrogman
Major General
 
ksfrogman's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Torrance, CA

Posts: 6,751
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
2006 330i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to ksfrogman
Don't fool yourselves. Look at all the E46 M3 goodies available. Companies and vendors know that M3 owners will be more interested in performance modding their cars than the current majority of spend thrift 3-series owners who are concerned about voiding warranties.
__________________
ksfrogman is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 01:09 PM   #28
roburado
Lieutenant
 
roburado's Avatar
 
Drives: '03 Passat, '09 Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Troy, MI

Posts: 446
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1991 318is  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Well, cars like the M3 are in the boundary between the mass-market and the custom built pieces. So, I am saying that the factory M3 is much more refined than your average mid-range car when it comes to performance. In the end, everything is a trade-off--any kind of design process is comprised of a series of trade-offs. That is exactly what I am saying: if you are willing to trade off things like reliability and emissions for performance, you can. Heck, you can make the thing perform a space flight if you spend enough and disregard other civilized considerations. But then do you want a race car, or do you want something you can drive on the street? If you want a race car, there are much better options than the M3 out there. That said, I still assert that it is not possible to gain 60-80hp by simply replacing headers and programming ECUs on this thing. Maybe 20hp in total, which you most likely will not feel during daily driving conditions, but not 60-80hp.
Personally, I think it's useless for me, as a person less likely to mod my car, to post much in a thread like this. Why get into a discussion about trading reliability for performance? People who want to mod will mod without your blessing, consent, unsolicited advice, etc. Why bother?
__________________
E30 1991 318is, Red on Black Leatherette

Family History: Two E21 320i, One E28 535is, One E34 535i, One E34 540i
roburado is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 01:58 PM   #29
EBuyuk
Private
 
EBuyuk's Avatar
 
Drives: E60 M5
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Istanbul

Posts: 95
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
To those people who think they can get 60-80 hp without FI and without sacrificing reliability: what are you smoking/dreaming? This will be a $60k+ car, which has a brand image to protect and plenty of other high performance cars to compete against and all. What makes you think BMW will release it with that kind of untapped potential? If they could have designed the headers to provide the additional 30 hp, they would have. This is not some Honda Civic you bolt parts onto (with the exception of FI) and see a drastic difference. Somebody even mentioned software. Give me a break. So, you're telling me someone else can write better software for this car then the highly trained engineers who designed the car in the first place and know the engine parameters inside out? Again, that kind of tweak works with lower end cars that are tuned down due to fuel economy, emissions, and noise concerns. Except for the emissions criteria, I doubt that BMW is too concerned with the rest in the M3. And if you want to go screw with you emissions, that's another story (then you can even remove the converter or something stupid like that). If you really want to mess with an engine and see results, try the 335i. You can play with the turbos, but rest assured that your engine will most likely not last as long as it was designed to last if you do so.
You are way off with your statement. Have you seen the headers on the E60 M5? They are about as terrible as they get. Its a 100k car.
EBuyuk is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 02:23 PM   #30
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

roburado, the opinion/advice was solicited. read the first post in the thread before responding to others. if who want to mod will mod, then why are you posting? what is your point? stay on topic. i'm saying that there won't be much potential for hp gains in the M3 with typical bolt on stuff unless you do something really drastic and expensive and trade a bunch of other stuff for it.
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 02:37 PM   #31
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

ebuyuk. no, i have not "seen" the M5 headers, but i wouldn't judge their performance by the way they look. can you point to data from an independent source stating their alternative indeed increases hp drastically? (not from the manufacturer who makes them or the people who spent good money to acquire them)
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 06:49 PM   #32
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,135
iTrader: (1)

No

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
There will be few mods you can do for the new S65 and the biggest limitor is the 12:1 compression ratio.

At 12:1 compression ratio, forced induction is not going to happen for the new M3 no more than the current M5 / M6 (which has the same compression ratio). There is the Osh "800hp" twin turbo M5 for $350,000 but this is just someone with pipe dreams.
Not so. The supercharged Audi I posted about just yesterday in this thread is at an even higher 12.5:1 compresson ratio stock. Sure engine life will likely be sacrificed a bit but I suspect that kit is reliable and high quality. There is no reason a similar thing can't and won't be available for the E92 M3.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-22-2007, 07:04 PM   #33
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Not so. The supercharged Audi I posted about just yesterday in this thread is at an even higher 12.5:1 compresson ratio stock. Sure engine life will likely be sacrificed a bit but I suspect that kit is reliable and high quality. There is no reason a similar thing can't and won't be available for the E92 M3.
only time will tell.... 12:1 with FI is a grenade
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 01:44 AM   #34
EBuyuk
Private
 
EBuyuk's Avatar
 
Drives: E60 M5
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Istanbul

Posts: 95
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
ebuyuk. no, i have not "seen" the M5 headers, but i wouldn't judge their performance by the way they look. can you point to data from an independent source stating their alternative indeed increases hp drastically? (not from the manufacturer who makes them or the people who spent good money to acquire them)
There is plenty of independent data. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=27 Try searching here under "supersprint headers" or " evosport headers"

Here is some good info on supersprint headers http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...835#post841835
EBuyuk is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 09:20 AM   #35
E36325is
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 1M coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hong Kong

Posts: 220
iTrader: (0)

headers

The M5 V10 header does not look bad or that inadequate at all

http://www.mbmw.com/M5%20V10%20Engine.htm
E36325is is offline   Hong Kong
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 10:20 AM   #36
T Bone
Brigadier General
 
T Bone's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The land where we kill baby seals

Posts: 4,021
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
There is plenty of independent data. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=27 Try searching here under "supersprint headers" or " evosport headers"

Here is some good info on supersprint headers http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...835#post841835

Cams, Headers and ECU tune only buys 3 mph and 0.4 seconds in the quartermile on an M6.

BMW headers are great stock....particularly since they are hydroformed.
__________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
T Bone is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 01:36 PM   #37
kyotousa
Banned
 
Drives: Acura TSX
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: TX

Posts: 168
iTrader: (0)

basically no mod needed....lol
anyway....it really needs to be faster than 4.8/12.8 if they want to sell it for 70k
kyotousa is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 01:55 PM   #38
EBuyuk
Private
 
EBuyuk's Avatar
 
Drives: E60 M5
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Istanbul

Posts: 95
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Cams, Headers and ECU tune only buys 3 mph and 0.4 seconds in the quartermile on an M6.

BMW headers are great stock....particularly since they are hydroformed.
I know that you don't get too much. But 0.4 secsonds in the 1/4 mile is a good number IMO since the car already has a good time in the 1/4 mile to begin with. We both know from following the M5/M6 board is that the aftermarket headers do indeed provide about 35-40hp. That's all I was trying to say.
EBuyuk is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 03:07 PM   #39
kyotousa
Banned
 
Drives: Acura TSX
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: TX

Posts: 168
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
I know that you don't get too much. But 0.4 secsonds in the 1/4 mile is a good number IMO since the car already has a good time in the 1/4 mile to begin with. We both know from following the M5/M6 board is that the aftermarket headers do indeed provide about 35-40hp. That's all I was trying to say.
actually it's header, cat + ECU.....so it's not header along tha tprovide 35-40whp

i donno if he just calculated the crank hp
but he ended up with
Stock: 500 hp
Header, Cats, ECU: 551.37 hp

if it's just header + cat i'd say that's great..but with ECU upgrade
that's just ok........I was expecting ECU would add like 40-50hp on euro car haha
kyotousa is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 04:19 PM   #40
2m3
Private First Class
 
Drives: 1995 M3, 1988 M3
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: HIllside VIllage, ca 90032

Posts: 135
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
I am guessing:

Headers 35hp
Exhaust Systems 2-5hp
Straight Pipes (Resonators) 0hp
Cold Air Intake Systems 17-20hp
Softwares 15-20hp
LTW Pulley Kits 15hp


However, I am sure that they will come out with a limited slip differential. I am not sure what gear ratio the M3 comes with but in my E60 M5 the ratio was 3.62 and I put the 3.91 diff. from Dinan and there was a 8% torque increase and it made a huge difference. You felt like the car had just recieved another 40-50hp.
yup...I agree with you.
The E92 M3 has 3.84 final drive ratio, and tall rear tires at 18/265/40. I think 2nd gear max at 72 mph. By changing to shorter final drive to 4.1 or 4.45, acceleration will even stronger.
2m3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-23-2007, 10:32 PM   #41
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: N/A
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,599
iTrader: (1)

I think the highest powered naturally aspirated S54s are at around 380 crank horsepower, right? I'm not counting the PTG cars which will probably need a rebuild after 10K miles or less and I believe they are not using a stock shortblock anyway (higher compression). So that's around 15% or so. Figure the same for the S65, and you get about 60hp after all possible bolt ons. Don't expect much more torque though (maybe 20 ft-lb).

If you want more than that, you need to go FI (and thus spend big bucks).
__________________
-
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST