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      04-20-2007, 03:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
In that case the DSG is like a better automatic. The driver just presses the gas pedal and steers the wheel. I would much rather accelerate a bit slower but be fully interacting with the car in a car like the M3. Coming from the E60 M5 with the SMG III, I was hoping that the DSG would have paddles. The SMG is awesome IMO, because of the fast shifts and perfect downshifts it is a blast to drive on winding roads or even regular straight roads. You really fell like you are driving a F1 car. I doubt that it will be this thrilling in the DSG.
No doubt. The nanobots truly take away from the driving experience. I wish they'd just kill them all.
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      04-20-2007, 04:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Alumac View Post
DSG for Sunday drivers, Manual for drivers. Easy!
SMG for race cars especially F1 cars (do your homework!). Manuals for luddites.

OK I don't really think the latter is true, it was more or less a sarcastic rubuttal to your totally false statement. But I am a "drivers driver" and I will get DCT only. Bottom line is DCT is better for track, acceleration times, flexibility (manual and auto modes), gf/wife borrowing, fuel consumption, customization (different shift programs in each mode), etc. Manual will be slightly less weight and give some a real but also perhaps a false sense of more "involvement" with the car. SMG/DCT allows you to simply focus on other aspects of your driving more, those parts that a pneumatic actuator and computer simply CAN NOT do. The part of driving that required and benefits from a HUMAN driver. Once you get a SMG/DCT wired during performance driving (and no am not even there myself yet) I think you will never want to go back.
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      04-20-2007, 04:45 PM   #25
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Misunderstanding

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Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
In that case the DSG is like a better automatic. The driver just presses the gas pedal and steers the wheel. I would much rather accelerate a bit slower but be fully interacting with the car in a car like the M3. Coming from the E60 M5 with the SMG III, I was hoping that the DSG would have paddles. The SMG is awesome IMO, because of the fast shifts and perfect downshifts it is a blast to drive on winding roads or even regular straight roads. You really fell like you are driving a F1 car. I doubt that it will be this thrilling in the DSG.
OK the DCT specs have not yet been released but I am 99% sure it will be almost just like SMG. Both are what is called an automated manual. They are absolutely manual transmissions, it is just the computer and pneumatics or hydraulics control the clutch and shift lever. DCT (DSG) will with 99% certainty have two modes and probably multiple selections/programs in each mode. In this way it will be functionally just like SMG. There will be automatic modes where the car decides to shift for you as you accelerate and decelerate. The different auto modes will then determine the rpm before shifts. In the manual mode the car absolutely will not shift until you tap the paddle or nudge the stick. Like others mentioned perfect rev matches, no chance of over-reving. I'm not sure if the DCT in manual mode will have different programs becuase the shifts are always almost instantaneous and are always smooth (VW-Audi folks with DCT might know better than me here).

The improvement of DCT (DSG) over SMG is simply instantaneous shifts from the dual clutchs and the "next" gear be always already to go, power through the transmission ALL the time which gives more smoothness, better acceleration and better mpg.

Also both DCT modes will likely have the ability to essentially "pop the clutch" or some launch control like feature that will produces near perfect launches. Anyone who thinks there is no control for fun, drifting, burnouts etc. with SMG/DSG/DCT go find an experienced M3 SMG driver and ask for some fun or a show in the passenger seat .... then hold on.

Hope this helps many of you. Cheers.
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      04-20-2007, 05:15 PM   #26
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Ok. I'm very new to this forum and have observed the debate going on here. Peronally, I see the merits for both - the DSG will be new technology to the M3 and i'm sure it will be superb. This technology comes from GP racing. Why do they use it GP? Obviously to be the quickest. Quickest also means they finish the race sooner, and the sooner they finish the race the better - cause the longer it goes on, the more expensive it gets!! So, I think this type of system is an aid to the driver only - nothing more. Clearly benefits in the M3 will be if your in traffic etc and when on open road, you can drive like a GP star - but technology will be the master - not you!

The manual is obviously well known technology etc. For me, the manual is all about you being in control. Anyone can dump the clutch and ram the stick and shove it into gear, but to get the best thrill, and become a very good driver, matching speed with road conditions and using engine revs to change up and down in a controlled and smooth way is very satisfying. See attached link to see what i'm talking about. If you can learn to drive like this, you'll never consider DSG/SMG - if you truly want to be in control:rocks:

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      04-20-2007, 05:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBuyuk View Post
In that case the DSG is like a better automatic. The driver just presses the gas pedal and steers the wheel. I would much rather accelerate a bit slower but be fully interacting with the car in a car like the M3. Coming from the E60 M5 with the SMG III, I was hoping that the DSG would have paddles. The SMG is awesome IMO, because of the fast shifts and perfect downshifts it is a blast to drive on winding roads or even regular straight roads. You really fell like you are driving a F1 car. I doubt that it will be this thrilling in the DSG.
First of all, I don't know what the f*k a "peddal" is. Does he mean pedal as in a clutch pedal? If so then no, it won't have a pedal. However, if he means "paddles", as in behind the steering wheel, then yes, it will have paddles. So, DSG is not like a better automatic. As someone pointed out already, the interface with the driver of the DSG, or M DCT, will, to the veteran SMG driver, be very similar.
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      04-20-2007, 07:18 PM   #28
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I was stuck in a 3 mile traffic jam today...this reminded me that I will need to go with a SMG / DSG / whatever its called then...
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      04-20-2007, 08:49 PM   #29
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First of all, I don't know what the f*k a "peddal" is. Does he mean pedal as in a clutch pedal? If so then no, it won't have a pedal. However, if he means "paddles", as in behind the steering wheel, then yes, it will have paddles. So, DSG is not like a better automatic. As someone pointed out already, the interface with the driver of the DSG, or M DCT, will, to the veteran SMG driver, be very similar.
Have you driven a DSG car? It is very much like a better automatic and not very SMG-like; paddles aside.
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      04-20-2007, 10:52 PM   #30
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Funny. Because in a time trial w/ professional drivers of the same skill level, the DSG driver would have the advantage.

I think being a "driver" and being a speed contest winner are two different things. It absolutely takes more skill to properly drive a manual transmission car WELL on a back road, racetrack, or even in traffic (smooth shifting without jeking your occupants' necks). Heel-toe downshifting is a skill few learn about or can master, but is a very satisfying feeling. Of course an SMG or DSG will shift faster and allow the driver to concentrate more on their line and, perhaps, left food braking, but this does not take away from the skill and subsequent rewarding feeling of driving a manual.

The DSG in the E92 M3 will have 7 speeds vs. 6 in the manual. This, plus the smoothness of the dual clutch system, makes it my choice. More gears to help that V8 stay near 8400 RPM!
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      04-20-2007, 10:57 PM   #31
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Well, I had written my comment because I had read a comment above that said no paddles. If it does have paddles and has some drivers interaction, then DSG is the only way to go. SMG was a blast to drive, if DSG is anything alike it is the only way to go. However since DSG will not be offered at the launch date this September, I will have to end up getting a manual. Therefore this debate has ended for me.
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      04-20-2007, 11:11 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
First of all, I don't know what the f*k a "peddal" is. Does he mean pedal as in a clutch pedal? If so then no, it won't have a pedal. However, if he means "paddles", as in behind the steering wheel, then yes, it will have paddles. So, DSG is not like a better automatic. As someone pointed out already, the interface with the driver of the DSG, or M DCT, will, to the veteran SMG driver, be very similar.
I'm pretty sure he meant to say paddles originally, thus the confusion. The answer to his question would then be yes, the dsg will also have paddles like the smg does.

It is always interesting to hear from ppl what they like and dont like about dsg vs. manual. I think manual is much more fun than automatic, but mostly because the auto chooses when to shift and it pisses me off. DSG would not suffer from this problem (you choose when to shift). I have never driven DSG or SMG but i'd imagine you would feel like a racer with instant paddle shifts - although admittedly less involved.

Looking at the big picture, this debate seems to focus on humans desire to be challenged (with a manual), set goals (master advanced manual technique), take voluntary steps to accomplish these goals (practice heel-toe), and feel the satisfaction of attaining these goals (well-executed heel-toe, smooth shift, rev match).
A DSG robotically does all of this for you, leaving you with nothing to strive for, resulting in boredom and dissatisfaction. Humans need goals, and to feel the power of accomplishment. After a good track lap or mtn run, I'd imagine one would feel less satisfied and proud because the robots did it for you.
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      04-20-2007, 11:22 PM   #33
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manual, even if it hurts the resale value

I am hoping most/all of the 23 people ahead of me on the waiting list decide to wait and get the DSG. I have driven Audi's DSG and will never buy anything remotely similar to it. Lastly, clicking these paddles feels like a secretary overstressing a computer mouse and just does not have a look to it that I would like to be associated with.
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      04-21-2007, 02:04 AM   #34
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Have you driven a DSG car? It is very much like a better automatic and not very SMG-like; paddles aside.
My comment on DSG being like or not like an automatic was in response to the idea that it won't have paddles. The fact that it WILL have paddles means that it's no reason to say it will just be like an advanced automatic.

However, I am aware that DSG in VW/Audi is a lot more "auto like" than SMG, but I don't think that BMW's "M DCT" transmission will be like that. BMW wouldn't put it in the M3 otherwise.

Also, if the rumours are true, S6 mode will do away with the clutch altogether and the car will change gears by rev matching, just like the formula 1 cars.
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      04-21-2007, 02:49 AM   #35
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SMG for race cars especially F1 cars (do your homework!). Manuals for luddites.

OK I don't really think the latter is true, it was more or less a sarcastic rubuttal to your totally false statement. But I am a "drivers driver" and I will get DCT only. Bottom line is DCT is better for track, acceleration times, flexibility (manual and auto modes), gf/wife borrowing, fuel consumption, customization (different shift programs in each mode), etc. Manual will be slightly less weight and give some a real but also perhaps a false sense of more "involvement" with the car. SMG/DCT allows you to simply focus on other aspects of your driving more, those parts that a pneumatic actuator and computer simply CAN NOT do. The part of driving that required and benefits from a HUMAN driver. Once you get a SMG/DCT wired during performance driving (and no am not even there myself yet) I think you will never want to go back.
Very interesting are your points "gf/wife borrowing" (so you confirm the quoted post that a "sunday" driver should go with MDCT) and customization. I think nothing can improve the customization of a manual. You don't need any shift programs, you get a continious customization by your left foot...
Without any doubt you're right about the track advantages, but you should further explain what you mean by "a real but perhaps false sense of involvement with the manual!?"

Best regards, south
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      04-21-2007, 04:12 PM   #36
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I'm pretty sure he meant to say paddles originally, thus the confusion. The answer to his question would then be yes, the dsg will also have paddles like the smg does.

It is always interesting to hear from ppl what they like and dont like about dsg vs. manual. I think manual is much more fun than automatic, but mostly because the auto chooses when to shift and it pisses me off. DSG would not suffer from this problem (you choose when to shift). I have never driven DSG or SMG but i'd imagine you would feel like a racer with instant paddle shifts - although admittedly less involved.

Looking at the big picture, this debate seems to focus on humans desire to be challenged (with a manual), set goals (master advanced manual technique), take voluntary steps to accomplish these goals (practice heel-toe), and feel the satisfaction of attaining these goals (well-executed heel-toe, smooth shift, rev match).
A DSG robotically does all of this for you, leaving you with nothing to strive for, resulting in boredom and dissatisfaction. Humans need goals, and to feel the power of accomplishment. After a good track lap or mtn run, I'd imagine one would feel less satisfied and proud because the robots did it for you.

I've never once been less satisfied/proud because I was using paddles. It's just as fun as rowing gears.
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      04-21-2007, 04:13 PM   #37
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I am hoping most/all of the 23 people ahead of me on the waiting list decide to wait and get the DSG. I have driven Audi's DSG and will never buy anything remotely similar to it. Lastly, clicking these paddles feels like a secretary overstressing a computer mouse and just does not have a look to it that I would like to be associated with.
So, it isn't so much the performance/dynamics as it is what others think of you? LOL
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      04-21-2007, 04:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
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SMG for race cars especially F1 cars (do your homework!). Manuals for luddites.

OK I don't really think the latter is true, it was more or less a sarcastic rubuttal to your totally false statement. But I am a "drivers driver" and I will get DCT only. Bottom line is DCT is better for track, acceleration times, flexibility (manual and auto modes), gf/wife borrowing, fuel consumption, customization (different shift programs in each mode), etc. Manual will be slightly less weight and give some a real but also perhaps a false sense of more "involvement" with the car. SMG/DCT allows you to simply focus on other aspects of your driving more, those parts that a pneumatic actuator and computer simply CAN NOT do. The part of driving that required and benefits from a HUMAN driver. Once you get a SMG/DCT wired during performance driving (and no am not even there myself yet) I think you will never want to go back.

Better fuel consumtion with the smg/dct? Where do you get this? My concern is reliability. They have been "perfecting" the smg for years. Just read the M5 forum and you will get an idea how unreliable this transmission is. Anyone planning on keeping thier M3 Dct car beyond warranty better have loads of expendable cash if anything goes wrong with this electronic wizard, especially in it's first years of development. BMW has an awful track record in regards to reliability with their automatic and Smg transmissions.
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      04-21-2007, 08:41 PM   #39
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Better fuel consumtion with the smg/dct? Where do you get this? My concern is reliability. They have been "perfecting" the smg for years. Just read the M5 forum and you will get an idea how unreliable this transmission is. Anyone planning on keeping thier M3 Dct car beyond warranty better have loads of expendable cash if anything goes wrong with this electronic wizard, especially in it's first years of development. BMW has an awful track record in regards to reliability with their automatic and Smg transmissions.

the truth is that anyone keeping their M3 beyond warranty better be ready to pony up a good deal of cash for repairs regardless of whether the car is equipped manual or DCT, that much you can be sure of. if there is any cost differential however, it will be incremental. you'll also find that the number of 1st generation SMG transmissions which have suffered from "problems" is not disproportionate to the filial generation of SMG which followed. if BMW's past is any indicator of its future, it's safe to assume that the 1st generation DCT won't be any more or less plagued with problems than the generations to follow.
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      04-21-2007, 08:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3onTwomps View Post
I've never once been less satisfied/proud because I was using paddles. It's just as fun as rowing gears.
good, cuz i want dsg
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      04-22-2007, 02:36 AM   #41
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Very interesting are your points "gf/wife borrowing" (so you confirm the quoted post that a "sunday" driver should go with MDCT) and customization. I think nothing can improve the customization of a manual. You don't need any shift programs, you get a continious customization by your left foot...
Without any doubt you're right about the track advantages, but you should further explain what you mean by "a real but perhaps false sense of involvement with the manual!?"

Best regards, south
I am glad you are both agree that, if you want to borrow someone's wife or girlfriend it is better to get the DCT. Makes sense -- leaves you your right hand free to reach out at chest level when you "stop short"
(Seinfield reference).
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      04-22-2007, 02:56 AM   #42
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Very interesting are your points "gf/wife borrowing" (so you confirm the quoted post that a "sunday" driver should go with MDCT) and customization. I think nothing can improve the customization of a manual. You don't need any shift programs, you get a continious customization by your left foot...
Without any doubt you're right about the track advantages, but you should further explain what you mean by "a real but perhaps false sense of involvement with the manual!?"

Best regards, south
Wife/gf borrowing is more interesting than saving .4 sec with every single shift??

I do think a Sunday driver should go with DCT. A Sunday driver probably wants an automatic like tranny with very smooth and low rpm shifts. M-DCT in auto mode at a mild setting will likely deliver just that. I ain't a "Sunday" driver but I sure might use such a setting myself occasionally.

Good point about "continuous" customization via the clutch, however, there is no way to be faster than your fastest (shift), that is where M-DCT will shine.

"Real but false": Rowing your own gears is absolutely involving. You feel the clutch pressure, feel the friction point when starting, can control the speed of the clutch release, you feel the gear shifter and feel some vibration in it, you feel it's resistance and the satisfying click into each slot. Indeed you have complete control of the power delivery and gear selection, at all times. Souds great so far. This all takes coordination, brain power, practice and touch. Heel and toe shifting adds another level of skill to the equation. Am I arguing for a MT??... This is "real" involvement but what does it really involve, that is my key question?? It involves mechanical bits and pieces, two levers only really. What does it actually have to do with the driving? The speed, the line, the braking, the traction, feeling the weight transfer, the g's and feeling riding on the edge of loosing traction, setting up weight transfer with your brakes, scanning the road or track ahead, planning and executing. All of these latter things are more the essense of driving to me rather than worrying about the particular method which is utilized to appropriately torque multiply and add speed. And worrying about rowing the actual levers themselves! This is why I say the involvement is a bit false. Furthermore these same things a computer and hydraulics or pnuematics just can not do and you would not want it to do so anyway. Then you would be only a passenger. Using this reasoning one might then argue "just get an automatic". There are (obviously) many good reasons not to do so. This choice does indeed detract from the essence of driving (as partially defined above) as such vehicles typically perform worse and perform unexpectedly. They just are not suited to high performance driving by their inheirent design limitations. That being said some automatics are getting pretty darn nice and quite sporty (recent MBs in particular). Actually they are good becuase they are getting closer to an automated manual in terms of performance but then still suffer in the important weight and power loss categories.

Another example: Anyone ever driven a high performance snowmobile? They have CVTs (continuously variable tranmissions), no gears as such and the clutch is not controlled by the driver, simply by rpm. These machines are a blast, take immense skill, are totally involving and thrilling and you simply do not worry about gears ever. Would putting a user operated clutch and gear shift mechanism make riding the sled more fun or more "involved"? The clear answer is no, just more tedious, distracting and lower the performance level.

Hope that helps clarify the false sense of involvement I refered to. Cheers.

Last edited by swamp2; 04-22-2007 at 03:36 AM.
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      04-22-2007, 03:34 AM   #43
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Source, etc.

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Better fuel consumtion with the smg/dct? Where do you get this? My concern is reliability. They have been "perfecting" the smg for years. Just read the M5 forum and you will get an idea how unreliable this transmission is. Anyone planning on keeping thier M3 Dct car beyond warranty better have loads of expendable cash if anything goes wrong with this electronic wizard, especially in it's first years of development. BMW has an awful track record in regards to reliability with their automatic and Smg transmissions.
No not necessarilty with SMG, I didn't say that nor do I have data to show that. However for DSG I do, DSG compared to MT mpg is available by looking at the VW GTI. EPA city/highway MPG: 23/32 manual, 25/31 DSG (in automatic mode). I suspect better results when using the DSG in manual mode and can't really explain why in highway driving DSG performs slightly worse than manual. But the tranny was in auto mode, not manual mode. "Apples to apples" should use manual mode in DSG. Perhaps also there is a gear ratio advantage to the MT.

Anyway in city driving the DSG has 9% better mpg. There is a simple scientific reason for better mileage. Except for extremely brief (single milliseconds) shift times, the transmission is putting power to the wheels ALWAYS. Add up a huge amount of throttle downs, throttle ups and the shift time of a MT when drag (air and mechanical) is slowing you down ever so slightly and you end up wasting a lot of fuel. Bottom line: DSG/DCT mpg > MT mpg.

Reliability, wizardry: M5s did have some trouble with their SMG system. However, I think it was not really that widespread. Many folks never reported any problems whatsoever. It sounds more like an overall quality, assembly, vendor problem to me. Certainly there was a problem. I won't defend BMW in the face of an obvious problem but at the same time the warranty will take care of these things. Also there was no recall done. As far as a DSG/DCT being and "electronic wizard" that really is not a fair nor accurate decription. These are both MANUAL tranmissions first and foremost. They both have a (multiple) clutch and direct gear drive systems. The electronics is simply a software program and some wiring that control actuators (mechanical!) that then in turn operate the clutch and shift lever. It is much more a mechanical system than electrical.
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      04-22-2007, 07:08 AM   #44
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Wife/gf borrowing is more interesting than saving .4 sec with every single shift??

I do think a Sunday driver should go with DCT. A Sunday driver probably wants an automatic like tranny with very smooth and low rpm shifts. M-DCT in auto mode at a mild setting will likely deliver just that. I ain't a "Sunday" driver but I sure might use such a setting myself occasionally.

Good point about "continuous" customization via the clutch, however, there is no way to be faster than your fastest (shift), that is where M-DCT will shine.

"Real but false": Rowing your own gears is absolutely involving. You feel the clutch pressure, feel the friction point when starting, can control the speed of the clutch release, you feel the gear shifter and feel some vibration in it, you feel it's resistance and the satisfying click into each slot. Indeed you have complete control of the power delivery and gear selection, at all times. Souds great so far. This all takes coordination, brain power, practice and touch. Heel and toe shifting adds another level of skill to the equation. Am I arguing for a MT??... This is "real" involvement but what does it really involve, that is my key question?? It involves mechanical bits and pieces, two levers only really. What does it actually have to do with the driving? The speed, the line, the braking, the traction, feeling the weight transfer, the g's and feeling riding on the edge of loosing traction, setting up weight transfer with your brakes, scanning the road or track ahead, planning and executing. All of these latter things are more the essense of driving to me rather than worrying about the particular method which is utilized to appropriately torque multiply and add speed. And worrying about rowing the actual levers themselves! This is why I say the involvement is a bit false. Furthermore these same things a computer and hydraulics or pnuematics just can not do and you would not want it to do so anyway. Then you would be only a passenger. Using this reasoning one might then argue "just get an automatic". There are (obviously) many good reasons not to do so. This choice does indeed detract from the essence of driving (as partially defined above) as such vehicles typically perform worse and perform unexpectedly. They just are not suited to high performance driving by their inheirent design limitations. That being said some automatics are getting pretty darn nice and quite sporty (recent MBs in particular). Actually they are good becuase they are getting closer to an automated manual in terms of performance but then still suffer in the important weight and power loss categories.

Another example: Anyone ever driven a high performance snowmobile? They have CVTs (continuously variable tranmissions), no gears as such and the clutch is not controlled by the driver, simply by rpm. These machines are a blast, take immense skill, are totally involving and thrilling and you simply do not worry about gears ever. Would putting a user operated clutch and gear shift mechanism make riding the sled more fun or more "involved"? The clear answer is no, just more tedious, distracting and lower the performance level.

Hope that helps clarify the false sense of involvement I refered to. Cheers.
You make some good points in you "real but false" statement. But following you argument it seems that having a manual transmission and enjoying the "essence" of driving (speed, line, braking, traction....) are mutually exclusive. That's not the case. Call me oldstyle but for decades people drove cars with manuals and did also enjoy all the points you made. I fully agree with you that having a DCT or SMG makes it easier for the driver to focus on the other points...but there are people (not meaning myself) who can combine all that points and are able to "handle" a manual transmission in a perfect way at the same time. So all in all I can't follow your "verdict" that a manual is a real but false driver envolvement, as I already said it doesn't make it easier (especially combined with all the points you stated), but that's also the charm of having a manual...With a sequential gearbox everybody can make a quick shift but if you make a good quick UP- or DOWN-shift with a manual, you can be somewhat proud of yourself...

Best regards and to each their own,
southlight
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