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View Poll Results: Which car would owned who? new M3 or IS-F
4.0 liter V8 414 HP 295 lb-ft torque BMW e90/92 M3 250 72.46%
5.0-liter V8 416 HP 371 lb-ft torque Lexus IS-F 46 13.33%
Just the same- depends on the driver 49 14.20%
Voters: 345. You may not vote on this poll

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      04-28-2010, 01:37 PM   #177
SUB-ZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ase2dais View Post
Thnks to saym3, ggb and the rest of the good crowd here that I resisted the ISF and C63 AMG temptation.
I got my Prod# started today 15 May, thks to Asad@Fairfax BMW.
takes about a week to produced and then the long agony of a 5-6 PDC transport wait, which I dont really mind
they can take as much time as they want now. for I know my already a e92 M3 owner now
Congrats!
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      04-28-2010, 02:35 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
Regardless of how good the IS-F may or may not be, it is still a substitute product targeted at the BMW M3; someone who chooses the ISF over M3 will probably do so to save the $9k; I really doubt anyone will choose the ISF over the M3 because it is better than the M3 in any way. Lexus has come close, but so have many other manufacturers who have taken aim at the M3 for many years now. The fact is, that the M3 remains the King of its class, and to my knowledge, has not yet been toppled by the competition.

Personally, I drove the ISF, at Lindsay Lexus just like the OP. I thought it was an amazing car, until I drove the M3. Now that I have driven the M3 hard and on very challenging asphalt, it is my opinion that the M3 is a far superior performance coupe than the ISF.

Remember, the M3 chasis and engine is actually used to compete in professional motorsports; this is a fact and a true testament to the performance capability of the "m3 package"; we are talking about competitive racecars who use the actual m3 chassis and engine (less crank).

How many GT class racecars do you know of that use an ISF chassis? Engine?

Lexus ISF is a nice car and makes a great Gran Tourer. The M3 is in a different class.
-SZ
Nothing like bumping two year old threads that have been beat to death.

I already know I'll get flamed, but this notion that the M3 trumps every other vehicle in it's class in every way is laughable. You are correct in that price did have a consideration in my decision, but not because I couldn't afford it, but because I don't think the M3 is worth $15K more than the F or $10K more than the C63. (Canadian pricing )

My F is as fast as the M3 sedan in a straight line (I don't have a decent track within 1000km so that's not an issue). The interior is much better in the F and there have been no persistent issues with the F, unlike the DCT struggles here. I also really dislike the looks of the M3 sedan...love the coupe though.

I will certainly acknowledge that the M3 is faster on a track, but even that gap has been closed with the new LSD. I still think the M3 is a great car, but it is certainly not in a class of it's own. The C63 and F offer different strengths and weaknesses than the M3 but to say that the M3 is better in every way is just more fanboi rhetoric.
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      04-28-2010, 10:27 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
Regardless of how good the IS-F may or may not be, it is still a substitute product targeted at the BMW M3; someone who chooses the ISF over M3 will probably do so to save the $9k; I really doubt anyone will choose the ISF over the M3 because it is better than the M3 in any way. Lexus has come close, but so have many other manufacturers who have taken aim at the M3 for many years now. The fact is, that the M3 remains the King of its class, and to my knowledge, has not yet been toppled by the competition.

Personally, I drove the ISF, at Lindsay Lexus just like the OP. I thought it was an amazing car, until I drove the M3. Now that I have driven the M3 hard and on very challenging asphalt, it is my opinion that the M3 is a far superior performance coupe than the ISF.

Remember, the M3 chasis and engine is actually used to compete in professional motorsports; this is a fact and a true testament to the performance capability of the "m3 package"; we are talking about competitive racecars who use the actual m3 chassis and engine (less crank).

How many GT class racecars do you know of that use an ISF chassis? Engine?

Lexus ISF is a nice car and makes a great Gran Tourer. The M3 is in a different class.
-SZ
are you kidding me?
The M3 is in a different class? king? what a joke...
it is better in track thats for sure. I agree...FACT!
but when i comes to relibility....ISF is far superior...FACT!
everthing else comes down to personal preference.
Yes, m3 is nicer in terms of performance,
but you cant say the M3 is in a different class...
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      05-02-2010, 12:12 PM   #180
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Top Gear compared the two and said m3 was still better, but thats just top gears opinion
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      05-02-2010, 01:32 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by chaseman5000 View Post
Top Gear compared the two and said m3 was still better, but thats just top gears opinion
And every other magazine or car show in the world as well, i cant find one single comparison test where the ISF has beaten the M3.

Clarkson on the ISF: " the ISF does a lot of things brilliantly but the M3......that does everything brilliantly"

/Thread (again!)
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      01-16-2011, 10:36 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
how about the stupid F figure on the front fender flap? uggggh!!!

I dont care about the badge. I do care about engineering, history and heritage, all of which the M3 has and Lexus does not. Japanese engineers are awesome....at copying others work. Japanese engineers ride the train to work, BMW engineers take the autobahn. The M3 is the real thing. The Lexus brand Toyota is a wanna be.

Its good BMW has competition to keep them on their toes and keep them honest, however I would never, never , ever buy the IS-F.

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      01-17-2011, 09:02 AM   #183
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Depends on the driver and depends on what type of race. From a roll or 1/4 mile i'd say it's a toss up. On a course track, we've all seen the video from Japan and other videos as well on how the M3 handles so well. Now in regards to which one would i choose in terms of looks, if it's between the M3 coupe and the ISF, hands down the M3 coupe. But i'm really biased towards coupe, especially the e92, it's really a beautiful design. But between the e90 M3 sedan and the ISF, hands down the ISF.
exactly my though as well.

between the sedan, i would go c63 amg.
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      01-17-2011, 09:16 AM   #184
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I wonder if they will put a manual trans in an F?and take out some of the quiet and comformt. How about a f1 insperied engine, not one out of the LS460 family sedan tuned by Yamaha. with all thier money and know-how you would think they could tune thier own motor.
F1 inspired engine?


i would take the LFA over any street cars bmw ever made.
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      01-17-2011, 10:39 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by ToothDoc View Post
SO, is 9.3K really worth that 1 second at Laguna Seca - and probably even less (using equal tires). Maybe for a race car driver, but for a daily driver to and from work, I'd rather keep the 9.3K and know that my car will probably not need to see the dealership as often (statistically - sorry for the low blow).
I never understand this "is that 1 second worth this much money" arguments. With that argument, you'll end up with a prius, in 1 second steps...

I haven't driven the IS-F, but I'd imagine it won't "feel" as good as an M3. It just won't. M guys put a lot of effort to the balance and weight distrubition of this car. You can say by 5 liter V8 of the IS-F, that it will be nose heavy and Lexus guys weren't all that concerned about the balance.
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      01-17-2011, 12:18 PM   #186
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We're not talking about which car has a "true motorsports" engine, whatever that means. We're talking about how you're bashing the ISF because it's a Toyota. And you did say that you like BMW because of it's engineering and how their engineers take the Autobahn and the Japanese engineers take the train. Which means to you that the BMW engineers are much better because they don't take the train like the Japanese engineers. Do you realize how retarded that really sounds. You're actually making a comparison and conclusion that the BMW engineers are better because they don't take the train, they take the Autobahn. How old are you? 19 or 16? And just to remind you, Toyota has built several high performance cars in the past. The last Supra Turbo, which was 13yrs ago, is as quick as some of the current sports cars today. It was capable of mid 4's to 60 and high 12's to 1/4 mile.
What he meant by the train/autobahn thing was that every morning, bmw engineers drive to work, and thus see, as they are driving, what they can do to improve the handling and feel of a car. what do jap engineers know? thats what he meant. and hes right. bmw engineers have so much more knowledge, expertise and experience than any other manufacturer and it really shows in their cars.
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      01-17-2011, 12:44 PM   #187
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I'm not 100% certain but the current ISF has had some significant changes in the suspension (maybe some other areas too). The changes were enough that in the Feb 2011 issue of C&D the ISF ran an almost identical time around VIR as the M3... I was surprised to say the least.
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      01-23-2011, 03:29 AM   #188
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I'm not 100% certain but the current ISF has had some significant changes in the suspension (maybe some other areas too). The changes were enough that in the Feb 2011 issue of C&D the ISF ran an almost identical time around VIR as the M3... I was surprised to say the least.
Here is what the article said about the performance of the IS-F:

"Three years back, an IS F turned a less-than-impressive 3:14.0. We said then, “A little attention to springs and damping might make this eager contender a real champ,” as the stiffly sprung F zapped confidence in high-speed corners.

Boy, were we right. Lexus has since tweaked all suspension elements. Spring rates are down in the front and up in the rear, and there are larger anti-roll bars, stiffer subframe bushings, and longer bump stops, which effectively increase spring rates when the car is nearing its maximum roll angle. Lexus also lightened the front hubs and control arms and slapped a Torsen limited-slip differential in the rear axle. The result is BMW M3–matching performance around VIR (3:05.4). That’s heady company for Lexus to be keeping. Especially considering that the IS F weighs 3801 pounds (195 more than the M3) and makes only two additional horsepower, at 416.

Lexus also redesigned the gauges, enlarging the tachometer and relocating it to the center of the instrument binnacle. But it could have removed the thing altogether because we did not so much as peep at it: The IS F’s audible shift warning is plenty loud, even when you are wearing a helmet. While the alert is slightly obnoxious on public roads, it lets you keep your eyes up when driving on a track.

The old F rolled around on the track like a keel-less boat in gusting winds. The aforementioned updates quell this tendency and increase confidence. Our backside impressions are supported by numbers: The F exits sector two 13.1 mph quicker than before, at 109.1. Steering is communicative, and the chassis is set up for safe, moderate understeer, but vector adjustment is just a throttle tweak away—the torquey engine (371 pound-feet) can break the rear tires loose easily. The brakes are fantastic, too. The pedal might be a tad wooden (more pliant pine than hard oak), but the system remains fade-free after multiple laps of abuse, something none of the other large sedans could claim this year. The 180-degree character change performed by this Lexus gives us hope that Toyota can still make fun-to-drive cars. Now  where’s our Supra? "
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      02-01-2011, 11:52 PM   #189
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I've owned both... and the IS-F will FLAT OUT own the M3 in every performance category... drivers being equal. And I'm more than happy to line up with any 'Local' M3's... in AZ. My M3 had RPI Off Road, Riss Racing Axle Back, Tune, Scoops, Filter, Crank Pulley... about every bolt-on... my IS-F has a Cat Back and a drop in filter.. traps .3 quicker, and 3 full Mph more than my M3. I school M3's all day long when given the chance.

It's not to say the M3 isn't an amazing car... it is... but the IS-F has more Torque, has significantly better brakes 'Real 6 piston Brembos'... and the nail in the coffin.. gets just over 22 MPG in day to day city traffic. May not mean much to some... but as we approach $4/gal it will!

Lastly... the 6 speed manual in the M3 is crap... only way I'll ever buy another one... would be DCT... and that's from a guy who actually road races his cars... the Manual is so notchy, grinds if you try to shift with any 'swiftness' on the 1 - 2 shift... was very disappointing for me.

I still respect M3's... but I checked the times page here... and I have like 3 seconds on the fastest 'modded' M3 against my 'Stock' IS-f at Cal Speedway (Auto Club).

Enjoy the cars how you like... there is no loser with either car, including the C63... just different cups of tea. The bashing that goes one from guys that have never owned the other makes, is amazing to me.

Dave
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      02-02-2011, 12:26 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
I've owned both... and the IS-F will FLAT OUT own the M3 in every performance category
I guess this must have been taped in some alternate universe then, because this shows a stock M3 walking a stock IS-F in a half mile run, even after the IS-F is given a huge jump:

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      02-02-2011, 12:46 AM   #191
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Yes, unfortunately, you may or may not notice, he didn't have the car in Manual Mode, or Sport... was a pathetic attempt... although it showed it win on the road course... If you've watched many of those episodes... it's all about 'TV Entertainment'... i've seen plenty of cars that should have won 'one contest or the other'... only to see them get it backwards...

I'm using my experience on the same tracks, same driver... and hands down.. it's no contest in a straight line (which is usually a brainless feat.. if you're smart enough to put the car in manual / sport mode... and shift when you hear the buzzer.. which none of that happens in that episode.

Then, you have C/D latest mag... so it not only beats the M3... but ties the M3 that runs sport cup tires...
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      02-02-2011, 01:14 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Yes, unfortunately, you may or may not notice, he didn't have the car in Manual Mode, or Sport... was a pathetic attempt...
I noticed the IS-F leave the line with a ton of wheel spin so I find it incredibly hard to believe it was set in some mode that handicapped it powerwise. If you're trying to tell me that a professional race car driver couldn't maximize acceleration (in an automatic equipped car) in a half mile race, you're making some pretty desperate sounding excuses to defend the Lexus. Even with a 3 car head start, the IS-F got owned. Deal with it. Plenty of other videos on youtube show the M3 slightly ahead or the two cars dead even so it's not just this single case.
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      02-02-2011, 09:31 AM   #193
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Sorry... it's the truth... if you watch Tanner... just 'holding' onto the wheel... and not shifting... it's VERY clear it's not in Sport or Manual mode. The car will spin the tires from a dead stop in any mode... but it's like racing the DCT M3 not in Sport Mode, and in S1.

I've owned both... I race both... again... the M3 is (was for me) a great car... but the IS-F is (for me) a better car. And it's starting to show that now in the latest tests.

Tanner & Paul... are just entertainment IMO.
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      02-02-2011, 11:26 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Sorry... it's the truth... if you watch Tanner... just 'holding' onto the wheel... and not shifting... it's VERY clear it's not in Sport or Manual mode. The car will spin the tires from a dead stop in any mode... but it's like racing the DCT M3 not in Sport Mode, and in S1.

I've owned both... I race both... again... the M3 is (was for me) a great car... but the IS-F is (for me) a better car. And it's starting to show that now in the latest tests.

Tanner & Paul... are just entertainment IMO.
I respect your racing accomplishments but to come on here and say a stock IS-F dominates a stock M3 in every performance measure is flat out ridiculous. There are plenty of objective, same-day comparisons that say otherwise. Anyone can find these. And it was not until the IS-F got an LSD - at the very end of its life cycle - that it was even close in the handling department. Similar deal with the C63.
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      02-02-2011, 11:54 AM   #195
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Agree... LSD is important in stock trim. And remember... IS-F is on smaller tires to boot. The sad fact is 'most' of the improvement... is honestly due to finally moving to Michellin tires... the car has always been as capable... but Bridgestone suck. There is a reason that every car that has claimed top honors... have one thing in common... Michellin Pilots!

CTS-V needed to do it... IS-F needed to do it... BMW has been doing it for sometime now.

I raced my IS-F... as is with no LSD... and still have the times to back it up... BUT I did put on 'D.O.T. Race Tires'... simply because I know the importance tires can make to an overall package.

Again... I love M3's... I typically flip my cars every 6 months... and so I wanted to try something new... I've really taken to the IS-F... and just haven't found a better car, that can do 'everything' so well... M3's are still very very nice cars... and the reason multiple makes sell... is because they fit peoples needs better for some than others.

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      02-02-2011, 01:16 PM   #196
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Quote:
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A
I raced my IS-F... as is with no LSD... and still have the times to back it up... BUT I did put on 'D.O.T. Race Tires'... simply because I know the importance tires can make to an overall package.

Again... I love M3's... I typically flip my cars every 6 months... and so I wanted to try something new... I've really taken to the IS-F... and just haven't found a better car, that can do 'everything' so well... M3's are still very very nice cars... and the reason multiple makes sell... is because they fit peoples needs better for some than others.

Dave

Again, I have huge respect for your driving skills. I don't mean to come off as a bench racing ignoramus. You make some excellent points. I truly do envy the gas mileage Toyota managed to extract from that engine as I sit here with a 17.0mpg average and have to fill up every 260 miles or so. But the sound almost makes up for it.
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      02-02-2011, 01:31 PM   #197
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Again, I have huge respect for your driving skills. I don't mean to come off as a bench racing ignoramus. You make some excellent points. I truly do envy the gas mileage Toyota managed to extract from that engine as I sit here with a 17.0mpg average and have to fill up every 260 miles or so. But the sound almost makes up for it.
I think that's the real point here. The cars are close enough in stock form that it really comes down to driving skills. Heck, he'd likely whip our asses in much slower cars due to his obvious skill behind the wheel. I'd be a jackass to come on here and start spouting off that my car was faster as my racing skills are light years behind Dave's....but in the right hands it's quite capable.

I think he's just looking for a race.

Maybe someone with an M3 should go take a run at him.
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      02-02-2011, 03:53 PM   #198
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Wait for the next generation IS-F. The current one is ok, but needs a manual and/or DCT.
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