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View Poll Results: Carbon Fiber Roof or Sunroof?
Carbon Fiber Roof 146 75.26%
Sunroof 48 24.74%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

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      04-15-2007, 09:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by jmramos44 View Post
Sunroofs are for pussies BTW!
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      04-15-2007, 10:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
Which will you choose?

I am torn. The CF roof looks fantastic, but I like having a sunroof. To me the M3 is really too heavy to be a pure sportscar anyway, so why not enjoy the sun and breeze a little more while you listen to that amazing V8 music?

Which will you choose?
I agree--love sunroofs. However, I will probably go with the CF just because it is fairly unique (except for M6) and I do like it. The 45 lb or so it saves over a steel roof with sunroof is not the issue.

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      04-15-2007, 11:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
I agree--love sunroofs. However, I will probably go with the CF just because it is fairly unique (except for M6) and I do like it. The 45 lb or so it saves over a steel roof with sunroof is not the issue.
everyone is looking at this wrong... it's not about the weight savings for speed. its about lowering weight from the top of car, which lowers the center of gravity by fairly large margin, which increases the handling GREATLY.
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      04-16-2007, 07:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I will probably track the car only 2 or 3 times a year. And the difference in performance will be small. I can enjoy the sunroof 365 days a year. I think I have to go with the sunroof.

However I was at my dealer Thursday night and the CF roof does look cool on the M6.
Ditto that - it looks cool as hell, but I would get much more enjoyment/usage out of the sunroof.
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      04-16-2007, 07:22 AM   #27
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CF definitely, unique in its class and looks great with the lighter exterior colors.
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      04-17-2007, 02:06 AM   #28
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carbon fiber doooooooo eeeeeeet
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      04-18-2007, 11:01 AM   #29
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Everyone who would rather have a sunroof with an extra 50 lbs at the top of the car should either get the convertible (to truly experience top down motoring at the penalty of some weight and structural rigidity) or get a 335i. The CF roof will make a huge difference in handling and feel of the car. For those who won't notice the difference, you probably won't notice the difference between an M3 and a 335i's handling either, so save $15K and get a 335i. It will be almost as fast (with Procede piggyback ECU = 380 HP) and handling is excellent for the average driver.
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      04-18-2007, 12:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Everyone who would rather have a sunroof with an extra 50 lbs at the top of the car should either get the convertible (to truly experience top down motoring at the penalty of some weight and structural rigidity) or get a 335i. The CF roof will make a huge difference in handling and feel of the car. For those who won't notice the difference, you probably won't notice the difference between an M3 and a 335i's handling either, so save $15K and get a 335i. It will be almost as fast (with Procede piggyback ECU = 380 HP) and handling is excellent for the average driver.
Well said. I LOVE my sunroof in my E46 and giving it up is gonna be hard. But c'mon, IT'S A CF ROOF!!!!!!!!:rocks: I mean I would love to have a CF roof AND a sunroof but if it comes down to it, cf all the way. After all, it IS a performance oriented driving machine.
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      04-18-2007, 01:58 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Everyone who would rather have a sunroof with an extra 50 lbs at the top of the car should either get the convertible (to truly experience top down motoring at the penalty of some weight and structural rigidity) or get a 335i. The CF roof will make a huge difference in handling and feel of the car. For those who won't notice the difference, you probably won't notice the difference between an M3 and a 335i's handling either, so save $15K and get a 335i. It will be almost as fast (with Procede piggyback ECU = 380 HP) and handling is excellent for the average driver.
I'm certain I'll notice the difference, but the trade-off is worth it to me. Before anybody says I'm not harde-core enough to drive an M3, will you be stripping your car of all sound insulation, back seats, door panels, etc? No? I thought not.

As I've said before, this car is about the balance between luxery & performance. A sun roof is part of that balance to me.

And no, I won't consider the 335i w/ proceed because there's no way it will offer the same throttle response as a naturally aspirated v8 w/ITB. I'd get the M3 vert, but that will defintely be out of my price range.
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      04-18-2007, 02:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Everyone who would rather have a sunroof with an extra 50 lbs at the top of the car should either get the convertible (to truly experience top down motoring at the penalty of some weight and structural rigidity) or get a 335i. The CF roof will make a huge difference in handling and feel of the car. For those who won't notice the difference, you probably won't notice the difference between an M3 and a 335i's handling either, so save $15K and get a 335i. It will be almost as fast (with Procede piggyback ECU = 380 HP) and handling is excellent for the average driver.
People will get whatever they want. Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't get?
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      04-18-2007, 02:55 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by M3onTwomps View Post
People will get whatever they want. Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't get?
+1.

e36Jakeo, I respect your choice and driving experiences... but they do not necessarily apply to everyone. I can understand if the M3 was going to be the GEM of my garage, I'd want it with the CF roof, since that is a signature feature of the car.

However, with an Evo (no sunroof), a 997 GT3 (which btw comes with a sunroof in the US, take it or don't buy the car, or buy the GT3RS for 20K more if you can get one), an Elise (leave hardtop on all the time), a Boxster S (vert) an S2000 (vert) and the Radical SR3 racecar (not street legal) in our stable... the M3 fills the position of "cruiser" for me. Therefore mine will have a sunroof. The car is "soft" already in comparison to the others we have!



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      04-18-2007, 03:06 PM   #34
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Quote:
~3700 lbs... race oriented...??

-Adam
Umm your point? Even though your weight is off but why would you add to that with a sunroof and no CF roof?

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      04-18-2007, 06:26 PM   #35
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Various

I seriously doubt that a blindfolded driver (certainly any of us in on this thread for sure) will be able to feel the difference between CF roof (obviously with no sunroof) and metal roof with sunroof. I'd place a bet on that as well. Anyone e36jakeo, fueledbymetal, imolazhp_ci ready to put their money where their mouth is???

The CF roof is simply one small piece of the weight/CG engineering effort very effectively implemented by BMW. Not to mention a huge marketing/wow factor. A huge reason they did this was to address the concerns of typical M drivers about weight bloating and to claim M3 weight < 335i weight.

Honestly as much of a contradiction as it is I would choose CF roof + sunroof if offered. The M3 is all about compromise, not a sports car, not a luxury car, not a GT, a bit of each. CF roof + sunroof would be right in line with a weight savings (compared to steel roof with sunroof) and also offer the aural and wind and sun in your face experience of a sunroof. Many generations of M3 have been great track tools with their sunroofs in place so I'll pass on the flames about a sunroof for a track/race car. This ain't no stinking "race car".

Also imolazhp_ci (and others in other threads): I have no idea where you are getting your terminology about "wet CF" and "dry CF"; it is totally wrong. CFRP stands for Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic. This is one category of a composite (glue+fibers) just like regular old fiberglass, it is just that these fibers have an incredible strength to weight ratio, better than steel in tension. Once resin (glue) is added to dry CF sheets they are formed and cured through various processes such as RTM or autoclave, etc. With RTM the part may finish with a very smooth glossy finish, other processes may require surfacing and clear coating to achieve a smooth and shiny appearance. For an application like an automotive roof one must carefully choose the resin and clear coat to be UV (sun) resistant and resistant to other common substances that will come into contact with the part (bird droppings are acidic, Hans!). Carbon-carbon is an entirely different beast, used in some very high end brake rotors and very high temperature applications (aero*******. Maybe this is what you meant by "dry", it looks totally dry? Carbon-carbon is manufactured a bit like CFRP but all resin and other additives are literally burnt out of the wet mixture to form carbon-carbon.

Sorry in advance for the CF "rant" but technically incorrect or incorrect jargon in science, engineering or manufacturing get me going (obviously...).
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      04-18-2007, 06:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sorry in advance for the CF "rant" but technically incorrect or incorrect jargon in science, engineering or manufacturing get me going (obviously...).
No big. Solid read.
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      04-18-2007, 07:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The CF roof is simply one small piece of the weight/CG engineering effort very effectively implemented by BMW. Not to mention a huge marketing/wow factor. A huge reason they did this was to address the concerns of typical M drivers about weight bloating and to claim M3 weight < 335i weight.
Good info. One note though... the E92 M3 weighs more than the E92 335. 1655kg (M3) vs 1600kg (335).

E92 335 Technical Specifications:
http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/..._datasheet.pdf

E92 M3 Technical Specificaitons:
http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/E...new_BMW_M3.pdf

-Adam
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      04-18-2007, 07:41 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
Good info. One note though... the E92 M3 weighs more than the E92 335. 1655kg (M3) vs 1600kg (335).

E92 335 Technical Specifications:
http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/..._datasheet.pdf

E92 M3 Technical Specificaitons:
http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/E...new_BMW_M3.pdf

-Adam
This has been discussed many times. You are comparing two different ways that the weight is calculated.
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      04-18-2007, 08:14 PM   #39
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I do think I am wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
This has been discussed many times. You are comparing two different ways that the weight is calculated.
Official BMW figures:
Car . . . . . . .EU figure . . . . USA
E46 M3 . . . . 1570 kg .. . . 3415 lbs
E92 M3 . . . . 1655 kg . . . . . ?
E92 335i . . . 1600 kg . . . . 3571 lbs

I thought for sure we knew that the M3 was lighter than the 335i. With these numbers it does not seem possible that M3 will weight less. However, like Steved mentioned he won't be confident until he sees the car on a scale. Case and point Road and Track weighed their 335i at a whooping 3635 curb weight (that's w/o a driver). Too much variation in standards and specs/options to make an absolutely concrete conclusion.

See this good post as well for more weight and weight standards.
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      04-18-2007, 10:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
This has been discussed many times. You are comparing two different ways that the weight is calculated.
No I'm not. Did you even look in the PDFs? Look at the weight and then read the footnote. Both measurements include 75kg for Driver & Luggage & 90% tank.

-Adam
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      04-19-2007, 12:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
(bird droppings are acidic, Hans)
Yeap... "my bad!" Live and learn! Next time I will be quicker with the quick detail. I think I am testing the Evo to see how much abuse it can take.... 48K miles and no probs yet......
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      04-19-2007, 01:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
I seriously doubt that a blindfolded driver (certainly any of us in on this thread for sure) will be able to feel the difference between CF roof (obviously with no sunroof) and metal roof with sunroof. I'd place a bet on that as well. Anyone e36jakeo, fueledbymetal, imolazhp_ci ready to put their money where their mouth is???

The CF roof is simply one small piece of the weight/CG engineering effort very effectively implemented by BMW. Not to mention a huge marketing/wow factor. A huge reason they did this was to address the concerns of typical M drivers about weight bloating and to claim M3 weight < 335i weight.

Honestly as much of a contradiction as it is I would choose CF roof + sunroof if offered. The M3 is all about compromise, not a sports car, not a luxury car, not a GT, a bit of each. CF roof + sunroof would be right in line with a weight savings (compared to steel roof with sunroof) and also offer the aural and wind and sun in your face experience of a sunroof. Many generations of M3 have been great track tools with their sunroofs in place so I'll pass on the flames about a sunroof for a track/race car. This ain't no stinking "race car".

Also imolazhp_ci (and others in other threads): I have no idea where you are getting your terminology about "wet CF" and "dry CF"; it is totally wrong. CFRP stands for Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic. This is one category of a composite (glue+fibers) just like regular old fiberglass, it is just that these fibers have an incredible strength to weight ratio, better than steel in tension. Once resin (glue) is added to dry CF sheets they are formed and cured through various processes such as RTM or autoclave, etc. With RTM the part may finish with a very smooth glossy finish, other processes may require surfacing and clear coating to achieve a smooth and shiny appearance. For an application like an automotive roof one must carefully choose the resin and clear coat to be UV (sun) resistant and resistant to other common substances that will come into contact with the part (bird droppings are acidic, Hans!). Carbon-carbon is an entirely different beast, used in some very high end brake rotors and very high temperature applications (aero*******. Maybe this is what you meant by "dry", it looks totally dry? Carbon-carbon is manufactured a bit like CFRP but all resin and other additives are literally burnt out of the wet mixture to form carbon-carbon.

Sorry in advance for the CF "rant" but technically incorrect or incorrect jargon in science, engineering or manufacturing get me going (obviously...).
First let me say I dont really care that the new M3 weighs what it does. It doesnt weigh much more than the last version but has gobs more power. On top of that it weighs about as much as a 996TT with two people and we all know how fast a 996TT is, even with two people in it.

That being said a sunroof with all the mechanicals and reinforced roof adds a sizable amount of weight. If you dont care about that then no big deal. If you are one of the people on here crying about weight then it probably matters to you.

Again, the new M3 doesnt weigh that much people, it could be a lot worse. The thing is going to be the fastest M3 to date so who cares....drop it folks...

Jason
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      04-19-2007, 01:21 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by fueledbymetal View Post
I'm certain I'll notice the difference, but the trade-off is worth it to me. Before anybody says I'm not harde-core enough to drive an M3, will you be stripping your car of all sound insulation, back seats, door panels, etc? No? I thought not.

As I've said before, this car is about the balance between luxery & performance. A sun roof is part of that balance to me.

And no, I won't consider the 335i w/ proceed because there's no way it will offer the same throttle response as a naturally aspirated v8 w/ITB. I'd get the M3 vert, but that will defintely be out of my price range.
I will admit to being a bit biased against sunroofs, since they cut into my badly-needed headroom (I am 6'3"),they make noise, can leak, and add wieght. I usually keep it closed with the shade covering it anyways. Some people love them, I know.

In a performance oriented car like an M3 I do not want to handicap it with extra weight when it could be that much better without it. I do track my cars, and thus I'd always feel it could be better with the lower center of gravity and less weight of the CF roof. The same goes for the new 7-speed DSG. Although I LOVE rowing my own gears, the performance advantage of a smooth-shifting DSG 7-speed over a 6-speed manual, especially in a high revving, peaky engine like this V8, is enough to make the DSG a no-brainer for me.

My grand plan is to use the M3 as a street car for many years, but to ultimately (and over time) convert it to primarily a track-car (as I have done with my E36 M3). So I guess I might be extreme enough . . .

I know I am a bit more extreme than most M3 owners, and I understand most will drive it for reasons other than its pure performance potential mixed with a good degree of practicality. I do, also, feel that some folks WOULD be just as happy, if not happier, with a torquier 335i that costs a lot less because they really don't drive the M3 like it can be driven and thus never gain the benefits their extra $15K in M engineering gains them. I just instructed an M3 owner at Thunderhill raceway, and the highest he ever revved the car was 7K RPM. The car makes about 270 HP at 7k rpm -- he might as well get a 330i. I instructed a kid in a civic with a Integra Type R engine swap ($5K + for the engine alone) and he shifted at 6K RPM - just before he actually hit Vtec! These folks never even use the technology that they paid for. And as I see it, designing an M3 with a CF roof is part of the entry fee.

I know a lot of people drive an M3 because of the M branding. They drive a car that has incredible pedigree and potential. I just don't get why they don't ever try and actually use the potential But that may be just me.
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      04-19-2007, 02:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I will admit to being a bit biased against sunroofs...
Hey, I understand. Good post, solid opinion. I definitely agree that too many folks buy a car for a letter, a name or a spec. and not for the awesome potential of the car. Definitely sad and a waste.

I track my current E36 M3 occasionally (not enough, actually...) and it is still the trusty daily driver as well. It is simply great that the new car will be as good as it will be, sunroof, CF, steel roof, whatever. Even cooler is that we can each choose the exact configuration we want. Unless you want CF roof + sunroof. Decisions, decisions, what a tortured life we live.

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