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04-11-2007, 03:41 PM | #23 | |
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Swiss mountain passes, that's where an M belongs!!! :rocks: |
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04-11-2007, 07:08 PM | #24 | |
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Formula 1 cars are designed without a roof, as are Boxsters, S2000s, etc. Thus they are designed from the ground up to be stiff and relatively light (3000 lbs or so). It allows them to handle well. An M3 is designed as a 4-seat coupe. With the E92 M3, it even has a CF roof to keep it light and with a lower center of gravity. Huge strides are taken to make it have a stiff chassis that does not flex when presented with huge loads in high G corners. This allows the suspension to do its job properly and allows the car to grip the pavement and remain balanced. By hacking off the roof to create the M3 Convertible additional chassis strengthening is necessary just to make it half as stiff as the coupe. This, plus the electric mechanism that raises and lowers the top, plus the metal top itself, weigh at least 400-500 lbs. For reference the 335i Vert weighs 400 lbs more than the 335i coupe (which has a metal roof and sunroof). I'll bet the M3 Vert will weigh over 4000 lbs. I am NOT against convertibles (I have an S2000). I too love putting the top down and running through the No Cal twisties. But to take a car that costs a lot of money because of how much engineering went into making it stiff, strong, relatively light, and fast, and then chopping off the roof, thus eliminating so much of what was good about it makes no sense. But I have the mindset of a racer, not someone who just wants to drive a cool looking, V8 powered, heavy 4-seat convertible. I'd rather get a used S2K for $15K for when you want to do the top-down thing and then get the real M3 -- the coupe (or sedan). OK, enough mudslinging. Just opinions, guys!
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04-11-2007, 07:39 PM | #25 |
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I love convertibles, but the weight, handling and performance penalty bothers me a lot. That's why I passed on the M6 Convertible. Unless M performs some special magic on the M3 Convertible implementation, I will likely pass on that too.
However, if the rumored Z4 M Roadster comes out with the new V8, that would be impossible for me to pass up. Unlike the 3-series, the Z4 was designed to be a roadster. The roadster version of the Z4 M actually weighs 33 lbs less than its Z4 M Coupe sibling. While I believe the Coupe handles better, the convertible penalty is way lower here than elsewhere in the BMW line. Tom |
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04-11-2007, 08:53 PM | #26 | |
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04-12-2007, 12:15 AM | #27 | |
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I envy the Swiss for the mountain passes, But the back roads of Germany and the roads through the Forrests are a close second, and risking a war with a neutral country, Austria may have the best passes TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? |
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04-12-2007, 01:46 AM | #28 | |
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Thats interesting that you say that, I have tracked, instructed, autocrossed and soloed in many different vehicles, P-Car 356s, 911s Boxsters, Boxster S, and RS Americas, Hondas S-2000 (2) 4 Datsun 510s and a BMW 2002. I am currently licensed to drive in FIA events, have raced a BMW 1 series and a Bora (Jetta there) with turbo diesels that are hard tops and are very fast overall (lots of torque, light and very controlable) these are not streetable machines they are track cars. I will be a pit man, sparedriver in the 24 at the Ring in June. If I buy into a ride, that 24 hour period will cost appoximately as much as a used S-2000 especially. maybe a bit less. My point was to have a Hard top / Softtop car that would perform anywhere close to within 95-to-98 percent of the coupe version is a great achievement Driven a 335 cab, and 335 coupe relatively hard, have you ? Take a look at the German Magazine autobild who tested the 335cab against the 997s(911 cab) the 335 with sport package and 17"s lapped the Hockenheimring 2-3 seconds slower than a more power Porsche 997S Cab on 19"s It was 1/2 the price. Really ! Now obviously the cab will be heavier than the coupe, but Have you noticed the body panels of the cab being different than the coupe? that the whole frame has been tuned to be NEAR that of a coupe. BMW has lightened many areas to keep the weight down and the chassis stiff The M series will be built the same way.Yes it weighs more, they didnt just cut the roof off and weld, they did a lot more than that. If you can spend $50-60 K on an M coupe will you strip it of weight and race prepare the car ? will you track it as is or modify it? Do you know why there are so many Porsche GT3s on the market with low miles? They are a track car, street legal maybe, but hard to enjoy without a track. I didnt buy a E-46 M-3 vert because of the Cowl shake, same with the Audi. Now go test drive a 335 cab and check for yourself. the M will likely be even better. But I will test it first, hopefully you will too. If you love top down driving, buy a vert, they hold their value better than a coupe. If you want it for the track order a car stripped,No air no PS PW PDL, no carpet, 2 seats (or better yet one) no radio LW back windows roll cage and gut and change the suspension, then drive it, its great on the track but will kill you on the freeway A coupe is a blast to drive, I have a 67 911S that will blow you away I also have a 67 911S Soft window targa that is more flexible but with the top off, rear window folded, and the 6 Webers sucking air and the sun hitting your head on a mountain pass, its much more visceral. To sum up my long, waiting for an airplane post Yes a car is like a woman If you want good sex find It, if they drive you nuts put up with it If you want want a friend find someone you can talk with forget the sex If you want a partner find as much of both as you can, someone you can live with and know their weaknesses and strengths, and make your decision, go with it, enjoy even marry If you picked right you will be happy, if not you will likely always want something else, to each his own. Everything in life is a compromise, Even a BMW TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? Last edited by gmund1948; 04-12-2007 at 02:02 AM.. |
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04-12-2007, 05:24 AM | #29 | ||
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It might. However, there are rumors that it will get an aluminum top instead of a steel one. So it might end up weighing less than the 335i convertible, just as the M3 coupe will (apparently anyway) weigh less than the 335i coupe. Still won't be light by any means but then again neither is an M5 or M6.
In fact, speaking of those cars (the M5 or M6), the only reason I can see to get one of those vs. an M3 sedan or coupe (or convertible for that matter) would be to have more space. And that certainly has absolutely no benefit on the track either, but that doesn't mean we should just go into the M5/M6 forum and call them all posers. LOL - but I gotta say it would be funny to see how swiftly you'd get flamed if you did that though. Quote:
And speaking of the coupe vs. sedan, the sedan is a compromise as well. According to this article: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=3948 the coupe is 25% stiffer. Not to mention the fact that the M3 sedan probably won't get the carbon fibre roof. So even the sedan buyer will be making concessions over the coupe for the sake of convenience. Personally I'd much rather make concessions in the name of more fun on my daily drive, but that's just me. Quote:
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04-13-2007, 01:48 AM | #30 |
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Well stated, guys.
Sorry if the poser comment came off as a personal insult to anyone. Much like you imagined me as some 19 year old punk (I wish I was still that young), I imagined some of you as guys who tool around at 3000 RPM in their Vert without really experiencing the "M" part of the car. Glad to see your experience (esp. track experience) proves me wrong. You do have to thank me for the poser comment, though. It got a real discussion started about the true pros and cons of Verts vs. Hardtops, with a bit of technical stuff mixed in. I'd be happy to drive with either of you in your M3 Verts anytime . . .
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04-13-2007, 08:55 AM | #31 | |
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No Harm, I cannot tell if you are 12, 19, or 32 , if you live in Nigeria and got
rich, scamming people over the Internet or are a latchkey kid with Internet access whos read way to many magazines. or both. For the most part trust appropriately, and use your BS Detector, If Its derrogatory take it off line, Ok once in a while someone so obnoxious needs bitch-slapped (I digress) The reason I have the following line : TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? I hear drag race and street racing stories here all the time. I watched a single parent family lose their mother to one of these idiots, and I have been to too many funerals stateside. I have lived in the Western States, Japan, Italy and Germany I made some stupid mistakes trying to learn to drive on public roads, Caused some havoc and nearly killed myself. Now thanks to driving schools and Sports car owning neighbors I learned correctly and safely thanks to PCA, and other clubs I learned how little I knew. I had the ugliest 510 Datsun that you ever saw, but it could outperform a lot of Prettier cars and I became a better Driver thats why.................. M for Motorsport Drivers training is a gift pass it on Remember in Germany it cost about $2500 USD to get a drivers license TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? Quote:
Last edited by gmund1948; 04-13-2007 at 09:22 AM.. |
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04-13-2007, 09:23 AM | #32 | |
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No Harm, I cannot tell if you are 12, 19, or 32 , if you live in Nigeria and got
rich, scamming people ove the Internet or are a latchkey kid with Internet access whos read way to many magazines. or both. For the most part trust appropriately, and use your BS Detector, If Its derrogatory take it off line, Ok once in a while someone so obnoxious needs bitch-slapped (I digress) The reason I have the following line : TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? I hear drag race and street racing stories here all the time. I watched single parent family lose their mother to one of these idiots, and I have been to too Many funerals stateside. I have lived in the Western States, Japan, Italy and Germany I made some stupid mistakes trying to learn to drive on public roads, Caused some havicand nearly killed myself. Now thanks to driving schools and Sports car owning neighbors I learned correctly and safely thanks to PCA, and othe clubs I learned how little I knew. I had the ugliest 510 Datsun that you ever saw, but it could outperform a lot of Prettier cars and I became a better Driver Drivers training is a gift pass it on Remember in Germany it cost about $2500 USD to get a drivers license TELL me what REAL Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? Quote:
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04-13-2007, 05:38 PM | #33 | |
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Trying to argue which is better is pointless because people will buy what they want to buy. I would personally opt for the sedan, but that's just me. If I see an M3 convertible rolling down the street, great, I'm sure he's having a great time. I wouldn't call him a poser.
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04-13-2007, 06:39 PM | #35 |
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I disagree. Get what you want based upon whats most important to you. We're not all worried about "posing". Personally, I want the coupe because I like knowing that I am driving what is the fastest and best handling model. How many of us will really ever use the M3 to its full potential anyway, maybe 5% of us? Certainly not on the public streets.
Last edited by ilmor; 04-13-2007 at 06:41 PM.. Reason: additional thoughts |
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04-13-2007, 07:38 PM | #36 | |
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I kid, of course. I was taught by the BMW CCA, Boston chapter, both on the track (Watkins Glen, NHIS, Lime Rock) and autocross. I then moved to CA, where I went through an instructor training course and subsequently became an HPDE instructor with NASA, Trackmasters, Nor. CA Racing Club, and Hooked on Driving. I have subsequently instructed over 100 students, so I do feel I have passed on a good portion of driver training. I also run my own driver training course with high end owners of Ferraris, Porsches, etc, and have had the pleasure of driving an F430 at 9/10 at several tracks. I am jealous of the driver training that is required to get your license in Germany. There are so many bad drivers in the US who clog the roads and create dangerous situations in normal driving, let alone inclement weather. I moved to Northern CA partially for the tracks (Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill, etc) but also for the great, relatively well maintained and desolate backroads. I, too, cringe, when I hear about and see videos of the street racing stories. What is the talent in pushing your right foot to the floor and (maybe) shifting once or twice, and at the same time putting everyone else in danger since they have not developed the ability to truly control their car? I am with you on having to make somewhat of a compromise with the car I choose. I have the M3 for the track and back roads (I have yet to go to a track-only set up for reasons of practicality = no tow vehicle!). I have a Legacy GT Wagon for Tahoe, Mt biking, windsurfing and as the general "workhorse." And come this Summer I will be trading in the splendid supercharged S2000 for a 335i sedan, which is necessitated by my first kid on the way!! I will do my best not to modify it too much (the car, I mean). I suspect that when the M3 sedan comes out the 335i will be traded in for it quicker than you can say "NA 420 HP!" I am glad to hear they may have resolved the cowl shake with the 335i/M3 vert. It should be a terrific machine, especially with the top down and the glorious V8 engine at 8K RPM! BTW, if I were smart I'd get the Vert, too -- to prevent me from turning it into a track car at some point in its life (I tend to track every car I ever own, and verts are not the safest in a roll, so it might prevent me from beating it up at Sears )
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04-14-2007, 11:52 AM | #37 | |
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Originally Posted by chitown08 Who's seen the latest GM commercial with all the new cars (like T.I. and the Impala), and then at the end the hick in the corvette listening to honky tonk music.... And that is why I would never ever buy a Corvette... haha ppl may say BMW owners are rich pricks or something... so following that logic, should BMW make a commercial with a prick being a prick and then getting in a bimmer... no. that would be dumb. Before some vette-loving tim mcgraw flames me, I fully realize that cars do not define ppl, but I can't help laughing at this commercial. Well after reading this and the post about the vert, you are either a woman who has great taste in cars, or have some Gender issues You really could be open minded, the car does not make the Man (or woman) and having an open mind is how we got the M in the first place Ever drive an M1 Doyou think listening to a certain type of music makes you a hick? Heres a really good question Ever driven a Vette ? or any other car on a track? ( other than in a straight line !) Let me ask in jest what colors tell you about the driver? TELL me what Real Drivers training you have after besides your State Drivers License ? Think about it ? |
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04-14-2007, 09:34 PM | #38 |
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There's one reason why I detest the CC and that's because it doesn't have 50/50 weight distribution, something the brand has harped on about for years. That's like dropping the Hofmeister kink - sacrilege
/tongue in cheek
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04-15-2007, 06:50 AM | #39 | |
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But you are missing out on lots of fun tho! |
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04-16-2007, 12:20 AM | #40 |
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Why the swipe at Nigerians??
[QUOTE=gmund1948;860111]No Harm, I cannot tell if you are 12, 19, or 32 , if you live in Nigeria and got
rich, scamming people over the Internet or are a latchkey kid with Internet access whos read way to many magazines. or both. |
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04-16-2007, 04:08 AM | #41 | |
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Thats embarrasing
[QUOTE=Tee-Tom;867111]
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claimed to originate in Nigeria, as well as its lack of enforcement of laws preventing such scams. Nigeria has become a catchall for internet scams in internet talk amongst the car groups I buy and sell with. I am American, I do not reflect, only accept the stereotype that other cultures have labeled me ! If you are in Lagos, and own a BMW I hope you have a good security system I liked this on " THE LOTTERY DEPARTMENT BMW Automobiles 22 Garden Close, Stamford, Lincs, PE9 2YP, London United Kingdom PRIZE AWARD =============== This is to inform you that have been selected for a cash prize of £1,000,000.00 (One Million Great British Pounds) and a brand new BMW 5 Series Car (Fifth Edition) International programs held on the 25th of August 2006. This years promotional lottery is for the take off of our main assembly plant ever in Africa. Description Of BMW 5 Series Car to be shipped to you: BRAND:........................................Fift h Edition MODEL:.......................................2005 Model COLOUR:......................................Metal lic Blue ENGINE TYPE:...........................1973cc 4-cylinder POWER:........................................145b hp TRANSMISSIONS:.......................Adaptive Automatic Transmission FUEL:............................................2 9.1mpg The selection process was carried out through random selection in our computerized email selection system (ess) from a database of over 250,000 email addresses drawn from all the continents of the world. Your Reference winning number is MGMT/1770/5800/EUES and Secret pin code is WTWU/3030/INSD. The BMW Lottery is approved by the British Gaming Board and also Licensed by The International Association of Gaming Regulators (IAGR). This promotional lottery is the 1st of its kind and we intend to sensitize the public. To begin the processing of your prize you are to contact your claims accredited Prize Transfer agents as stated below: ================================================== Owep Global Agency 22 Garden Close, Stamford, Lincs, PE9 2YP, London United Kingdom Name: Mr. Paul Owen. E-mail: katalottery@katamail.com Tel: +44 7031849535 Or Owep Global Agency. 1 obot close, Victoria - Island, Lagos, Nigeria. Email: katalottery.ng@katalottery.com Tel: +234 80 57838365. ================================================== = Contact your claim agent by providing your secret pin code and your Reference Number. You are also advised to send to your claim agent with the under listed informations as soon as possible: Claims Requirements: ================================================== = 1.Name in full----------------------------------------- 2.Address--------------------------------------------- 3.Nationality----------------------------------------- 4.Age------------------------------------------------- 5.Occupation------------------------------------------ 6.Phone/Fax------------------------------------------- 7.Present Country------------------------------------- ================================================== = If you do not contact your claims agent within 7 working days of this notification, your winnings would be revoked. Winners are advised to keep their winning details/information from the public to avoid fraudulent claim (IMPORTANT) pending the transfer/claim by Winner. *Winners under the age of 18 are automatically disqualified. *All Staffs of the BMW Group are not to partake in this Promotional Lottery. Accept my hearty congratulations once again! Regards Mrs. Sofia Hans. The Program Coordinator. |
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04-16-2007, 08:04 AM | #42 | |
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I agree with you!
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At any rate, keep driving, smile (!), and respect fellow enthusiasts. Please! K. |
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