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      12-20-2010, 07:15 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
That's not the point. I prefer the best NA engine over the best turbo engine.
Well, it is MY point, however, I also prefer the best HP NA engines over the best FI ones. Although I much prefer my .2 GT3 over my previous .1 997 turbo, the turbo was still a marvel to drive. I will occasionally miss that Star-ship Enterprise Warp 8, Scottie give her all your got man, thrust of the turbo, but once I hear and feel 8500 rpms of the GT3, the feeling subsides quickly. Porsche did an excellent job with their VTG turbo technology and I would expect no less from BMW maybe even more (not power but execution).
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      12-20-2010, 07:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
I'm sorry buy your weight figures are way off. Therefore your power to weight ratios are also way off.

DIN curb weight (preliminary as they call it):

E30 M3 at 1,225 kg = 2,701 lbs [5.57kg/hp] +0.11kg [% generational kg/hp improvement over previous model]

E36 M3 at 1,385 kg = 3,053 lbs [4.84kg/hp] -0.27kg [-13%]

E46 M3 at 1,474 kg = 3,250 lbs [4.30kg/hp] -0.28kg [-11%]

E92 M3 at 1,605 kg = 3,538 lbs [3.82kg/hp] +0.02kg [-11%]
Thank you!

Using the DIN curb weights you posted to correct kg/hp ratios, there are differences yet the general pattern of generational kg/hp improvement remains.

It still appears that in order for the next generation M3 to match the historical generational kg/wt ratio reduction average (i.e. 11.67%), some output of 470hp will be needed with DIN curb weight remaining the same 1,605kg that it is for the E92M3.
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      12-20-2010, 08:32 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
If BMW can make a turbo car even half as fun and thrilling as what Porsche can, we may have something good. I dont expect them to be able to provide consumers the same type of cutting edge turbo tech (vtg)
Eh? I'm not worried about the motor...

I'm a porsche guy, but BMW has been building more technically advanced motors for years, hands down (with a couple exceptions, ie CGT).

The GT3 and GT2 are both based on the metzger block, designed as air-cooled way back when. While this allows an amazing evolution, the downside is that the motor is not all that high tech, and it's heavy. Not surprising when you realize they took an air-cooled motor design and bolted on 40 years of technology (water jackets, power steering pumps, emissions equipment, etc). On a power to weight and tech basis BMW has been leading, not following. If they put their minds to it and spend the money (which they have done in previous Ms) I believe they will set the standard.

The real question in my mind is if they are moving towards Porsche or Lexus with the chassis...
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      12-20-2010, 09:22 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip View Post
Honestly, the M3 is the luxury coupe. The 1M is being marketed as a "back to our roots sports car".
The 1M still has useable back seats and a decent trunk (I'm not sure but I'm assuming it has more storage space than the Cayman). I think this car represents what BMW does best and thats make fun performance cars that have everyday practicality. If practicality and price aren't your focus then I no doubt agree that a Porsche is probably a better car for you.

In terms of the F32 M3, I hope BMW can shave about 100-200lbs from the e92 platform. I've been reading that BMW is well aware of the unhealthy weight increase in their cars and working to control this so hopefully they do something to mitigate the trend.

While I'm not excited about the prospect of them putting a TT engine in the car, on a positive note I do think that with it, the days of a C63's straight line dominance and people's complaints of lack of low end torque may be over. Also, I still have faith the BMW M will do some serious work to the engine to make it earn the S badging.

In a dream world, I'd like the M3 GTS engine in the F32 M3
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      12-20-2010, 10:09 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Im assuming with options, youll be looking at high 70's.
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Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip View Post
I would say the next gen M3's MSRP be right around that mark. 65 or 66k with it fully optioned pushing 78k.
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Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Fully loaded I'd say this car will push $82k 100%
We are all thinking along similar lines. Base price around 65k +/-, loaded price at 80k +/-.

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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Simply too much for a 3 series, M or not. Especially if they use a run of the mill n55 motor.
People already pay high 70s today.

There is literally zero chance that they use an N55 in this car. It will be an S55 (or S56, if an N56 debuts in next couple years) with some very advanced turbo technology never seen before on any production car.
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      12-20-2010, 10:21 AM   #50
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Everything on Roundel for the last few months has said the next M3 will have a turbo I6. It'd also been said BMW believes the ideal cylinder size to be 0.5L; thus is especially true for the M division, but who knows with Segler running the show now.
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      12-20-2010, 10:37 AM   #51
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[quote=shift@red;8532962]The thing is, the GT3 doesnt need anything more than what it is/has. It is THE winningest car in motorsport history from THE winningest manufacturer in motorsport history. Why mess with what works? Its not supposed to be a high tech motor. Its just supposed to be a reliable one that wins races and does so with ease over the v8 competition. Cars like the 911 turbo pack a lot of tech, and things im sure BMW wont have for quite a while in their cars.



^^^ Exactly! The Metzger engine has a long history of winning races and endurance reliability. Although there may be higher tech stuff, the GT3 with 114.4 hp per liter and the RS with 118.4 speaks volumes. Their current torque curves are very, very impressive as well. The engine isn't what I would think as heavy considering that the new and future use 9A1 is only (roughly) 13 lbs lghter. These engines are bullet proof as well. These cars with the Metzger will be sought after in years to come, imo. Not many manufacturers are making true race ready dry sumps either. The new (2009) 9A1 is an "integrated wet sump" in Porsche speak.

Last edited by devo; 12-21-2010 at 06:39 AM.
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      12-20-2010, 10:38 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I am still skeptical.
I would be willing to place a wager on the first character of the F1x M3's engine name being an "S".

Quote:
And just because they throw tune on an n55 and call it an s55 doesnt mean its truly an 's' motor.
Well, I suppose if they literally just rebadge the motor then perhaps I'd agree. But the liklihood that they will be able to squeeze 450hp+ out of an N55 with no changes other than to the ECU to me is basically zero. I mean sure you can probably do that with after market tune and mods today, but we are talking about a production motor with a warranty.

IMHO the "S55" (working name for now) will share less parts with an N55 than today's S63 shares with the N63. I suppose that isn't saying much, but my point is that I believe as time goes on, the M motors will likely veer more from the series motors. At the same time, I expect that the shortblock and probably much of the longblock will stay. Though I could easily see M specific heads and valvetrain for the F3x M3 and/or F2x 1M.
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      12-20-2010, 11:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Price and 0-60 time are not related. If they were then a C63 or CTS-V would cost a lot more than they do today and an RS5 a lot less. And those examples just happen to be cars that are in the M3's class. You can find dozens of examples of cars in price classes much higher and much lower than the M3 that also refute your point.

Even if you were to generalize and say that the overall performance of a car determines its price point, that still is not true with many examples available to use as counterpoints.
I do think that you will find a pretty tight inverse relationship between 0-60 times and price (especially if aligned within a given manufacturer's line up). I totally agree that it's not necessarily causal but one does inform pretty well about the other.

In the general BMW pricing architecture, sub 4 second 0-60 times will be reserved for the M5 and M6 price brackets for at least one more generation. The next M3 will be published in the low 4's.
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      12-20-2010, 12:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by double_j View Post
I do think that you will find a pretty tight inverse relationship between 0-60 times and price (especially if aligned within a given manufacturer's line up).
I still don't really agree. In fact, I can't think of a single manufacture where pricing of their lineup and acceration specs are in sync. This is especially the case when you look at the different goals of different products accross the lineup. Certainly you don't think an M3 is slower to 60 than a 750Li? For that matter compare the base price of an X6 35i (never mind the 50i for a moment, which the M3 will still beat) with an E90 M3.

Quote:
In the general BMW pricing architecture, sub 4 second 0-60 times will be reserved for the M5 and M6 price brackets for at least one more generation. The next M3 will be published in the low 4's.
I would tend to agree with this, but your earlier post suggested that BMW would use the performance of the car to determine the price for the car. It simply does not work this way. Instead, they determine the price they want to charge for a product and then decide what qualities it must possess in order to command that price. That's how to build a good business case and successfully execute product development.

I do agree that the M3 won't have advertised acceleration times better than the M5. But it will definitely be faster than a 750i for less money - the current car already accomplishes that and there's no way the new one will base at 80k like a 750Li does.
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Last edited by mkoesel; 12-20-2010 at 12:26 PM.
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      12-20-2010, 02:58 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
There is literally zero chance that they use an N55 in this car. It will be an S55 (or S56, if an N56 debuts in next couple years) with some very advanced turbo technology never seen before on any production car.
That is a very bold claim. Now I agree it won't be named N55, but that is not the same thing as being mostly an N55 motor at heart. If you make the claim of zero chance for an N55 variant I'd strongly disagree.
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      12-20-2010, 03:02 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double_j View Post
The next M3 will be published in the low 4's.
I agree but, in the real world it will almost for sure break 4.0 and get into the 3's! BMW is always very conservative in its officiall performance figures. They want to make sure every car and most drivers can get those numbers even under non ideal environmental (road, weather, tires) conditions.
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      12-20-2010, 03:13 PM   #57
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      12-20-2010, 03:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
If you make the claim of zero chance for an N55 variant I'd strongly disagree.
On the contrary, I think there is almost zero chance of it not using an N55 variant. The only thing that could make that happen is if an N56 is to appear within the next few years (like I said above).
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      12-20-2010, 03:32 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Sorry guys, so-called "BMW insiders" on a car forum are the last people I'd listen to when it comes to what engine will be in the next-generation M3.

NOBODY and I repeat, nobody knows what engine will be in this car. To date, all of this engine talk is pure speculation to keep the forum heads occupied.

I'm pretty sure it won't be a variant of the N55, there will most likely be a new engine in the M3.

Evidence, speculation, insider info, all bullshit until we here the official news from BMW AG themselves.
Well we have seen engines that would otherwise be two cylinders bigger end up in cars such as the X5M, X6M, and 1M... Precedent says that the 8cyl mill will probably end up being a 6 cylinder mill. On top of that, we have seen ///M go turbocharged so chances are we will see the next engine in the M3 go turbocharged as well. They went turbo on the M5, X6M, X5M, and 1M.

M5 = 10cyl -> 8cyl Turbo
M3 = 8cyl -> 6cyl Turbo ? ??
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      12-20-2010, 03:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Sorry guys, so-called "BMW insiders" on a car forum are the last people I'd listen to when it comes to what engine will be in the next-generation M3.

NOBODY and I repeat, nobody knows what engine will be in this car. To date, all of this engine talk is pure speculation to keep the forum heads occupied.

I'm pretty sure it won't be a variant of the N55, there will most likely be a new engine in the M3.

Evidence, speculation, insider info, all bullshit until we here the official news from BMW AG themselves.
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      12-20-2010, 03:54 PM   #61
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I think these are best case scenario lol... If u wanna know the 0-60 and quarter mile time just wait for the m5, should be easy to guess then. +/- 0.1s of the f10 m5 0-60 time and I doubt it will be more than 450 hp for the m3
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      12-20-2010, 03:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Wow, you really have lost faith. Which modern turbo cars have you driven? Folks are succeeding pretty well in drastic reductions in turbo lag. I might be going out on a limb, but when the car is released and the performance is well known, I suspect you (like 80% of those now disappointed) will be lusting after it. The pattern of M naysayers who convert to current generation owners or droolers is quite well established. Its been happening since the release of the E36 M3.

Now all that being said, if you want an all out track car (or simply the engine experience of such a car) NA is the way to go and the S65 is a real gem. Just to be clear I'm certainly not implying here that the E9X M3 is an all out track car at all.
I own a Stage 1 Dinan tuned car, and I have taken that and an e92 ///M on the track and street and its no comparison. Is my e92 335i tuned fast? Hell yeah. Does it create the same soul moving reaction the ///M does? F**K NO.

Listen, I'm not saying the F32 won't be a great car, because it will be. Just as I have said over and over again that the S4 and C63 are great cars, but that's what they are, great cars, just like a 335iS, and tuned 335i with the N54 are great cars. To me, the e92s and GT3s are not great cars but SPECIAL cars. They are the closet thing to an exotic without being an exotic (well, GT3 probably counts). I'm not trying to compare a GT3 with a ///M, so please don't think that. All I am trying to do is make the point of the difference between a GTR and an ///M. The GTR trashes the ///M on a track and on the road, but damn, nothing feels or drives like that ///M or GT3. I don't mind having a FI variant of the ///M3, I do have a problem with NOT offering an N/A variant.

Its like the difference between your wife, and the other great woman you dated before the wife who was hot........both are great women, but there is something special about your wife that you can't quite put into words other than to say "that's why she's my wife". Make sense? BMW has always been my wife, with most of Porsche, Audi & Merc being my "other" woman (no, I don't cheat on my wife). Now, it looks like I'm going to have to file for divorce

Cheers,
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      12-20-2010, 04:03 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

At a glance - F32 M3 Performance Predictions:

  • 0-60 mph: 3.7 - 3.9 s
  • 0-100 mph: 8.6 - 8.8 s
  • 0-200 kph: 13.2 - 13.6 s (for our metric friends!)
  • 1/4 mi time: 11.9 - 12.1 s
  • 1/4 mi trap: 116 - 119 mph
  • top speed: 190 - 193 mph (of course true, not indicated, indicated should be just shy of 200 mph)
  • Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (SportAuto): 7:53-7:58
I will love it if they manage this, but 0-60 in 3.7, i very much doubt this. They will never let the m3 be quicker than the m5 and m6, I can't see them making a car such as the m5 or m6 around 3.5 seconds 0-60.

Time will tell I guess.....
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      12-20-2010, 04:07 PM   #64
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As far as the debate about them using an N55 in the M3, you have to remember the 1M was made on a tight time constraint. This car will debut in 2012/13, which gives BMW a ton of time to really develop an engine.

We will see an S engine.

Also remember BMW doesn't need to play horsepower wars. Regardless of the HP, the car will be faster around the ring than the competition. Just like we saw with the 1M.
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      12-20-2010, 04:46 PM   #65
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^^^ This should add some of that soul you're looking for:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010...NEWS/101209992

Sorry Swamp, it's OT I know, but I had to do it. It's almost Xmas and a guy can have a gift list, right?

Last edited by devo; 12-20-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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      12-20-2010, 05:00 PM   #66
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I think what will define M from its line brethern will be hte use of Carbon Fiber pannels in F30 gen M....

I think wight will be BMWs trump card with the use of their new CF plnt (s)

~Frost
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