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      04-08-2007, 08:32 AM   #23
swamp2
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Not bad

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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Agreed.
...
For the M3, I left out drag simply because I couldn't find data, so if someone has the drag coefficient and front area, please post.
...
Here is a simulation of the M6 and a PDF of the M6 review from C&D....very close...
M6 sim vs. data looks not bad. Accurate around 50-70 otherwise underpredicting. I posted the aero info. here. Since we don't have both numbers I'd guess .29/23.6 but only the product matters anyway. Nice work!
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      04-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Did this on Cartest 2000 software....Awesome software see the attached JPEGs for the results. The computer did some simulations and determined that a 1600 rpm clutch dump yielded the fastest acceleration time.

You know what guys, this data looks credible versus M5 / M6 / RS4

What do you guys think?

Damn good post, T Bone. Your simulation looks to be right on. I predict 12.7@113mph for real world numbers.
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      04-08-2007, 06:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Is the E92 M3 6-speed really geared that tall (73 MPH in 2nd gear, 111 in 3rd!!??). That is tall for a high-revving engine and does not take advantage of the revs. Maybe they are doing that for gas mileage.

The answer to how fast it will accelerate lies in the new Motor Trend magazine:

Porsche 997 Carrera S: HP 355, torque 295 lb ft, weight 3275, 9.23 lbs/HP
0-60 in 4.4, 1/4 mile in 13.0 109.5

Porsche 997 GT3: HP 415, torque 300 lb ft, weight 3235, 7.80 lbs/HP, 0-60 in 3.8, 1/4 mile in 12.1 @ 118 MPH

BMW E92 M3:414 HP, torque 295 lb ft, weight 3483, 8.39 lbs/HP. The power to weight ratio is 9% better than the Carrera S and 7% worse than the GT3. With similar gearing to a GT3 (kinda tall in the 1st three gears), I see no reason the M3 will not fall smack in the middle of these. It will not be able to launch as hard for 0-60 due to less weight in the back, but I think 0-60 in 4.2 -4.3 seconds and 1/4 mile in 12.5 @ 114 is the best guess based upon the Porsche comparison.
Why are you using 3483 lbs for the M3? According to the thread at the top of this board, the car weighs in at 1655 kg (3648 lbs, EU4). If you've subtracted driver weight from the M3's number, you have to do the same for the Porsche cars (which also use EU4 spec; Porsche actually lists weights in both EU and DIN on their site). The GT3 is only 1395 kg/3076 lbs by the standard definition of "curb weight."

Also keep in mind that the RR P-cars have much better traction off the line than any FR, including the M3. The M3's ET will be much closer to the Carrera S (though it'll trap faster) than the GT3, despite the power/weight ratios.
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      04-09-2007, 12:16 AM   #26
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according to the BMW pdf press releases the ///M3 waighs in @ 3483lbs not the 36xx lbs noted above. you can download the US/English pdf on bmwusa website. thats the official weight if anyone says otherwise its not off fact but their own opinion. trust the manufacturer not the opinion of others ;-)

Mike
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      04-09-2007, 01:42 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhbhaat View Post
Why are you using 3483 lbs for the M3? According to the thread at the top of this board, the car weighs in at 1655 kg (3648 lbs, EU4). If you've subtracted driver weight from the M3's number, you have to do the same for the Porsche cars (which also use EU4 spec; Porsche actually lists weights in both EU and DIN on their site). The GT3 is only 1395 kg/3076 lbs by the standard definition of "curb weight."

Also keep in mind that the RR P-cars have much better traction off the line than any FR, including the M3. The M3's ET will be much closer to the Carrera S (though it'll trap faster) than the GT3, despite the power/weight ratios.
I took traction into account with my 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

For the GT3 I was using the actual weighed curb weight by Motor Trend (NOT test weight). This includes base curb weight plus whatever options that particular GT3 came with. I am sure that the M3 the car mags get ahold of will weight somewhat more than 3483, since it will undoubtedly have some options.

I am, honestly, surprised that Porsche lists the GT3 Curb weight at 3075 lbs on their USA web site. Both Car and Driver and Motor trend have it at 3235-3045 in their recent articles. Perhaps Porsche's definition of "Curb weight" is different than the norm (i.e. no liquids at all). 160--170 lbs is a BIG difference.

Example 2: The Cayman S Curb weight is listed at 2954 lbs for manual transmission. Road and Track Aug 06 has their Cayman S curb weight at 3130 lbs! Another 176 lb "error?" I think Porsche grossly underestimates their curb weights for marketing purposes.

For reference, the BMW 335i Sedan curb weight is listed at 3591 lbs and C&D test car curbed at 3635, so only 44 lbs off. This could be accounted for by the heavier 18" wheels of the sport package and extra power in the seats alone.

So with normal stuff on it the M3 will probably weight about 3525 lbs, or 300 lbs more than a GT3 -- not bad!
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      04-09-2007, 08:19 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I took traction into account with my 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

For the GT3 I was using the actual weighed curb weight by Motor Trend (NOT test weight). This includes base curb weight plus whatever options that particular GT3 came with. I am sure that the M3 the car mags get ahold of will weight somewhat more than 3483, since it will undoubtedly have some options.

I am, honestly, surprised that Porsche lists the GT3 Curb weight at 3075 lbs on their USA web site. Both Car and Driver and Motor trend have it at 3235-3045 in their recent articles. Perhaps Porsche's definition of "Curb weight" is different than the norm (i.e. no liquids at all). 160--170 lbs is a BIG difference.

Example 2: The Cayman S Curb weight is listed at 2954 lbs for manual transmission. Road and Track Aug 06 has their Cayman S curb weight at 3130 lbs! Another 176 lb "error?" I think Porsche grossly underestimates their curb weights for marketing purposes.

For reference, the BMW 335i Sedan curb weight is listed at 3591 lbs and C&D test car curbed at 3635, so only 44 lbs off. This could be accounted for by the heavier 18" wheels of the sport package and extra power in the seats alone.

So with normal stuff on it the M3 will probably weight about 3525 lbs, or 300 lbs more than a GT3 -- not bad!
Porsche uses something called "DIN" weight I believe.....no fluids....oil, windsheild washer, fuel, coolant, brake fluid....

Cheezy and deceptive.
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      04-09-2007, 08:29 AM   #29
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DIN = Deutsche Industrie Norm


The Germans have their own kind off measurement. As far as i know it`s accepted all over Europe.
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      04-10-2007, 09:01 AM   #30
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E39 M5 engine

Hey T-Bone. Is this sw free? Where can I get it? In the meantime how about an interesting request? Run the new M3 with the old M5 engine. I read some good threads on how this hypothetical vehicle might perform. I guess it may only be fair to run it with the gear ratios and tire sizes from the M5 as well. The argument in that thread was basically the classic torque vs. hp argument. Thanks!

Last edited by swamp2; 04-10-2007 at 05:04 PM.
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      04-10-2007, 06:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Hey T-Bone. Is this sw free? Where can I get it? In the meantime how about an interesting request? Run the new M3 with the old M5 engine. I read some good threads on how this hypothetical vehicle might perform. I guess it may only be fair to run it with the gear ratios and tire sizes from the M5 as well. The argument in that thread was basically the classic torque vs. hp argument. Thanks!
There is no need to run the S62 with the new M3.....the power curves match the BMW curves pretty well.

In my experience, those who suffer from HP always mention torque.... 414 hp is 414 hp, it is a measure of the work this engine can do.

I encourage you to play with the software, all variables are adjustable.

There is a free trial version.... www.cartest2000.com
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      04-10-2007, 07:45 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
There is no need to run the S62 with the new M3.....the power curves match the BMW curves pretty well.

In my experience, those who suffer from HP always mention torque.... 414 hp is 414 hp, it is a measure of the work this engine can do.

I encourage you to play with the software, all variables are adjustable.

There is a free trial version.... www.cartest2000.com
http://www.cartestsoftware.com/cartest2000/index.html is the correct URL. Thanks.
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