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      12-14-2010, 09:28 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

My opinion on the situation is that the 1M is irrelevant right now since it does not have a naturally aspirated high revving motor and also does not offer M-DCT. I suspect that 50% of the folks on the forum that also have DCT will agree. And probably at least half on the remaining ones will agree because of the engine point.

Once the next generation cars come, things will be more level on both of those fronts - F2x 1M gains DCT, F3x M3 loses NA motor. Then the comparison will be much more relevant. But even then, it won't be much different than comparing an E90 M3 to an E60 M5 for example. That is to say, then really do cover two totally seperate markets.
Another good point
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      12-14-2010, 09:56 AM   #46
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PERFORMANCE = 1M > M3

COMFORT/LUXURY/DD = M3 > 1M

1M
+ = lightweight, raw
- = N54 (although ecu tuning can 'help')

M3
+ = comfort, V8
- = Heavy

If ur looking for the next great M track car, that can easily be modded to 3000 lbs, 300+ whp and will outhandle ANY modern BMW (with the right suspension mods), then the 1M is gonna be ur car.

If ur looking for a great daily driver, practical sports car with great comfort, luxury, technology, great handling, braking and power performance, then the e9xm3 is right for you.

2 different applications.
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      12-14-2010, 05:17 PM   #47
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EPIC, really? Wide fenders != EPIC.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=epic
wtf is this sh1t?
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      12-14-2010, 06:24 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
PERFORMANCE = 1M > M3

COMFORT/LUXURY/DD = M3 > 1M

1M
+ = lightweight, raw
- = N54 (although ecu tuning can 'help')

M3
+ = comfort, V8
- = Heavy

If ur looking for the next great M track car, that can easily be modded to 3000 lbs, 300+ whp and will outhandle ANY modern BMW (with the right suspension mods), then the 1M is gonna be ur car.

If ur looking for a great daily driver, practical sports car with great comfort, luxury, technology, great handling, braking and power performance, then the e9xm3 is right for you.

2 different applications.
I am a fan of the 1M, however, shedding 350+ lbs from it to attain a 3000 weight will be no easy feat.

To call the 1M light-weight and raw is a big stretch. There is nothing raw about it and it certainly is not light-weight by any stretch of the imagination.
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      12-15-2010, 04:27 AM   #49
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Really?? ...
- change front seats to Recaros = 100 lbs
- take out rear seats, seatback + trunkliner = 50 lbs
- lighter wheels, brakes, exhaust = 50 lbs.
And you already lost 200 lbs.

FACT: Its the lightest, most raw (least amount of driver aids + electronics) BMW currently sells..
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      12-16-2010, 03:44 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
I think everyone is jumping the gun with the 1M track performance. Having sufferred through heat issues on the track with N54 engine (even after oil cooler upgrade, intercooler upgrade, straight distilled water, fog lamp removal), wait and see if the M division addressed this issue. The V8 handled 95F+ ambient temps just fine over a very long track day, it is a work of art.
Could you elaborate more on which car this was?

I believe it was Berk Technology (IIRC) who ran several time attacks in their 135 with the following upgrades , as well as several other shops like Top Speed In Atlanta which swept One-Lap in a GT2 and AST with these mods. Although they do run hotter, as most all turbo cars do, I never saw at the track/talked about/read about "issues" that preventing it from running 25-30 minute sessions once upgraded and I have been on track with some of these guys. Granted turbo cars always run hotter, these cars could still run in July heat in 95+ temps. I'd like to ask how the cars do on the track for longer time periods though as Berk did use a vented hood to keep it cool out in the mid-west summer heat and never updated their blog on if it was enough to keep it cool for longer durations.
Anyhow
The 1M has gone 8:12 on the Ring and I'd doubt BMW's own cooling upgrades for this new model are as substantial as the beefy aftermarket mods that are available for the N54.....
I think its safe to say don't plan on putting a PROcede on your 1M and expect to walk away from E92 M3's because it will have cooling issues without significantly addressing the cooling system unlike an N/A M car


As far as 1M vs M3. 8400rpm vs turbo motor. E92 M3 sound/experience IS a work of art, while F.I motors just feel like a wall of torque to me (yawn, it's always more fun to work for your power and hear the reward)
A 7200-7600rpm turbo motor with a higher peak power curve would've been a nice compromise. Also the high roof line on the 1 relative to the rest of the mass (higher center of gravity) hurts the 135 as a good base for a track toy. It's great that the 1M now shares a carbon roof but i'd still put my money on the E90/2 being a better chassis to go tracking with simply for where the weight is
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      12-16-2010, 04:06 AM   #51
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It's great that the 1M now shares a carbon roof...
Umm... I don't think the 1M gets the CF roof.
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      12-16-2010, 04:26 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
Umm... I don't think the 1M gets the CF roof.
Hopefully it'll be an option given the flaws with the 135i and the fact that BMW now has a ginormous carbon fiber facility in the N.E. Hell supposedly future M cars are suppose to have carbon fiber bodys to make up for the hybrid-gear to come (yuck) (rumors)

Here's a prototype X5 they were doing development on
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ca...sed-22146.html
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      12-16-2010, 07:00 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Really?? ...
- change front seats to Recaros = 100 lbs
- take out rear seats, seatback + trunkliner = 50 lbs
- lighter wheels, brakes, exhaust = 50 lbs.
And you already lost 200 lbs.

FACT: Its the lightest, most raw (least amount of driver aids + electronics) BMW currently sells..
My point exactly. With what you listed one would spend about $15k to lose 200 lbs (your estimate). The next 150 lbs will be even more costly. So, yeah, like I said, it'll be very difficult to lose 350 lbs on this car.

I wouldn't want to put $15k into this car let alone $25k+ and still not have any suspension or engine mods.

What driver aids is the car missing. Admittedly I missed that part.
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      12-16-2010, 05:02 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Really?? ...
- change front seats to Recaros = 100 lbs
- take out rear seats, seatback + trunkliner = 50 lbs
- lighter wheels, brakes, exhaust = 50 lbs.
And you already lost 200 lbs.

FACT: Its the lightest, most raw (least amount of driver aids + electronics) BMW currently sells..

I doubt you'll loose 200lbs with these mods. I may be wrong but you'll be closer to 150-180lbs. The other 170-200lbs will be much harder/more expensive as Devo mentioned.

Not only the cost, but what is the point of stripping 1M to the bare skin? If you want to build a track car there are way better platforms.

Let's face it: M doesn't make light cars anymore, it's a thing of a past. Calling 1M nimble, light, and raw is a huge stretch in my books.
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      12-17-2010, 01:23 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
The 1M is not light, its not raw, its certainly not going to be the most nimble car around.
+1

Here is the proof, it is already heavier and less raw than the E46 M3 anyways. It weights 46 lbs. more!!!


DIN curb weight (preliminary as they call it):

E82 1M at 1,495 kg. = 3,296 lbs.

E46 M3 at 1,474 kg. = 3,250 lbs.

E92 M3 at 1,605 kg. = 3,538 lbs.


EU standard weight:

E82 1M at 1,570 kg. = 3,461 lbs.

E46 M3 at 1,549 kg. = 3,415 lbs.

E92 M3 at 1,680 kg. = 3,704 lbs.


EU is DIN + 68kg driver and 7kg luggage.
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      12-17-2010, 03:04 AM   #56
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1M is just oddly named. Try saying it. One M vs M tre, just so much smoother
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      12-17-2010, 04:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
1M is just oddly named. Try saying it. One M vs M tre, just so much smoother
lol very true. I really like the use of alcantara in the interior. I still do not like the general box shape of the 1 and I especially do not like the headlights. They look almost e46-ish to me.
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      12-17-2010, 01:25 PM   #58
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Hmm..

Interesting points said here in this thread, but lets shed some more facts here in regards to the 1M and the M3 as it seems there are a ton of 1M fanatics here.

The M3's S65 motor is worlds apart from the N54. I have owned 2 335i's, fully modded, it doesn't hold a candle to the S65 as far as sheer driving pleasure and response time. If we are talking about track performance, the N54's response time is very sluggish compared to the M3's S65. The S65 is truly a work of art, anyone wanting to deny that, well, is in denial.

Again, more on track performance... I (along with many others) have been consistently capable of throwing the N54 into unfavorable temps to the point where it hits limp, on the street. In a track environment, even all the additional cooling done to the N54, it is still a turbo car, it still has CAST turbo parts that will become very hot and will always run hotter than the S65. BMW should have help vent the new 1M more for expelling heat, they didn't. The S65 has a pure equal length Stainless Steel Exhaust manifold.

Handling.. The 1 series chassis is greatly the same as the 3 series, except BMW cut off most of the SIZE of the car off the rear. It upset some of the balance of the car, drive a 335i and a 135i back to back, and you will soon realize the 335i has LESS understeer and feels more balanced, even though its a tad heavier.

Engine placement and weight balance. The 1M/135i is a straight -6. The M3 is a V8. Inherently the V8 is shorter in length, there is less weight hanging over the front subframe. For those wondering, this is not an assumption, I have actually measured the differences.

Please compare a 6-Speed M3 to the 1M, not the DCT. The 6-speed M3 variants are not bad on weight compared to the DCT variants. Go weigh in a 6-speed MT M3 on scales, and see how much it really weighs. My M3 weighed in less than my 335i coupe did. (personal experience)

Before calling the E92 M3 a porker, please look how heavy the Nissan GTR is. Does it magically defy the laws of motion? No.

Will the M3 continually be better than the 1M after the 1M is released performance wise, I personally think so. Time will answer all these questions and doubts.

Is the 1M a great car? Yes it is. It has to be, it has most of the M3's underpinnings.

Is the 1M worth its price? Yes.

Would I buy one over an M3? No.
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      12-17-2010, 01:34 PM   #59
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I had an e46m3
OE Trim: 3475 (no fuel, no driver)
I removed the rear seats, rear trunkliner, added GC Coilovers ($1500), added a Titanium Muffler ($1200), had lighter wheels + tires ($2500), front BBK ($2500) and was down to 3200 lbs. (no fuel, no driver) @ $7700+

I HAVE and e90m3
OE trim: 3630 lbs. (no fuel no driver)
I removed the rear seats, removed trunkliner, installed f/r BBK ($7500), installed a lighter muffler and X-Pipe ($2000), installed a Spring Coilover Kit ($1000), and lighter wheels + tires ($2500) and am down to 3400 lbs. (no fuel, no driver) @ $13k

This is e90/e92M3 vs 1M ...and the 1M IS a lighter car and you can "easily" remove 200+lbs.
It will be more nimble and change direction better at the track then an e92/e90m3.
I've worked with 2 teams running e82 chassis for racing, so I can tell you this chassis is capable at the track.... more then an e90/e92m3 = faster for less money.

There are a TON of better candidates for race cars then both these platforms.
But speaking strictly 1M vs. M3 = the 1M WILL be a better/faster for cheaper track car then the e90/e92m3. Period.

As far as street comfort and dd capability = e90/e92m3 hands down.
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      12-17-2010, 03:02 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I still dont agree, seeing as the 1 series (and inevitably 1M) doesnt have the same amount of insulation as the e46 m3 and def not as much as the e9X M3. I still dont think youll do any better than 150 lbs or so.
As far as being a better track car, I dont see that happening either unless BMW found a way to keep the oil temps down and limp modes away.
Lets also not forget that the 1M is longer, wider, and taller than the 135i.
So what part of those 2 examples do you disagree with?
That you can drop 200+ lbs without changing front seats out of both cars ... but somehow the 1M will be exempt from those 2 examples??

And as far as track car -- what you are saying is ... that stock for stock ... same day, same driver the M3 will post a faster lap time then the 1M (around a common race track -- not the 45 mile long Nordschleife)

hmmm -- i dunno for sure -- but Im gonna guess a 1M will post a slightly faster lap time due to the very same reason I posted SIGNIFICANTLY faster lap times in my e46m3 over my e90m3 = weight = load transfer = change of direction.

Last edited by mastek; 12-17-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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      12-17-2010, 06:00 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I do not think the 1m will post better lap times around the same track. Its more a factor of power to weight.

M3 3650/414=8.8
1M 3350/335=10.0

Its the same reason that the Panamera Turbo can outlap the M3 on any given track despite it weighing 4300 lbs.
E92 M3 3,704/414= 8.95
E46 M3 3,415/333= 10.26
E82 1M 3,461/335= 10.33

E92 M3 is even farther ahead of E82 1M in power to weight ratio because weight difference is not 300 lbs, it is only 243 lbs.
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      12-17-2010, 08:00 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
I had an e46m3
OE Trim: 3475 (no fuel, no driver)
I removed the rear seats, rear trunkliner, added GC Coilovers ($1500), added a Titanium Muffler ($1200), had lighter wheels + tires ($2500), front BBK ($2500) and was down to 3200 lbs. (no fuel, no driver) @ $7700+

I HAVE and e90m3
OE trim: 3630 lbs. (no fuel no driver)
I removed the rear seats, removed trunkliner, installed f/r BBK ($7500), installed a lighter muffler and X-Pipe ($2000), installed a Spring Coilover Kit ($1000), and lighter wheels + tires ($2500) and am down to 3400 lbs. (no fuel, no driver) @ $13k

This is e90/e92M3 vs 1M ...and the 1M IS a lighter car and you can "easily" remove 200+lbs.
It will be more nimble and change direction better at the track then an e92/e90m3.
I've worked with 2 teams running e82 chassis for racing, so I can tell you this chassis is capable at the track.... more then an e90/e92m3 = faster for less money.

There are a TON of better candidates for race cars then both these platforms.
But speaking strictly 1M vs. M3 = the 1M WILL be a better/faster for cheaper track car then the e90/e92m3. Period.

As far as street comfort and dd capability = e90/e92m3 hands down.
I don't see how saving even 200 lbs, let alone the 350 lbs you intially quoted, will be easy if we are defining easy by price. The total weight for these items on the 1M will be even less as the parts you listed will weigh marginally less because they are smaller to begin with. Removing the rear seats, lighter muffler and cats and lighter wheels won't yield 200 lbs. You also do not appear to be factoring in labor for the other items and/or exhaust work. ($2,500 for wheels and tires? Where, what kind? Quality wheels and tires of that size are not $2,500 mounted and balanced.) So, we appear to be back at roughly $15k for 200 lbs, even a speculated $11-$12k for 140-150 lbs is too pricey.

Last edited by devo; 12-18-2010 at 07:52 AM.
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      12-17-2010, 08:06 PM   #63
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Like when the N54 was first introduced, I wouldn't be surprised if the 1M is underrated some so as not to take away sales from the M3.

Power isn't everything, but the numbers disappoint some, especially when you compare it to a ten year old e46 M3.
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      12-18-2010, 07:43 AM   #64
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Like when the N54 was first introduced, I wouldn't be surprised if the 1M is underrated some so as not to take away sales from the M3.

Power isn't everything, but the numbers disappoint some, especially when you compare it to a ten year old e46 M3.
I agree with but while we're at it the E90 numbers disappoint when compared to the E46 or it says how competent and ahead of it's time the E46 was.

Last edited by devo; 12-18-2010 at 07:53 AM.
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      01-04-2011, 05:24 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
From the small bit of research I did on baseline dynos between a 335i and 335is, it looks like the iS motors only put down ~10 more rwhp than a regular motor.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews.../photo_02.html

Only 10 more peak rwhp. But if you look at the hp and torque curve, the is motor is putting down 25+ more hp throughout broad areas of the entire rev range and over 60 ft-lb more torque. The 1M is rated at 15 more hp than the 335is so its N54 motor is likely putting out even more power than the standard 135i and 335i N54 motor.
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      01-04-2011, 06:11 AM   #66
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First: 1M has Z4 sDrive35is engine and not 335is.
135i / 335i had and Z4 sDrive35i has N54B30O0.
135i / 335i now have N55B30O0.
335is has N54B30O0 with BMW Performance upgrade.
Z4 sDrive35is / 1M have N54B30T0 with so to say "BMW M" upgrade.

For me 1M is a 100 %. The reason is the engine. If to change the engine it will cost very much, so also no need to talk about this. The E82 chassis is better for a track car than E92 chassis, as it is lighter, but this is only true when talking about raw chassis, E82 vs. E92, not 1M vs. M3.
The best solution for a track car would be to get a 120i Coupé E82, stripp it out and put the NA 2.0l I4 with 280 HP and 8.500 redline from the BMW 320si Motorsport, and then all the M3 parts. Would be better, more fun, really lighter and cheaper. But it will not be a dailly driver. Then I think 135i is better. 1M is not bad if to leave it as it is, but never as M3.
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