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      06-24-2010, 05:32 AM   #1
gr8000
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Water / Methanol Injection

Guys what do you think of this? Not necessarily for the S65, but in general for NA engines.

Will there be significant power gains with a 15% water / methanol injection? What are the downsides? Anyone has experience on this?

Comments, concerns & feedback are all much appreciated.
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      06-24-2010, 09:23 AM   #2
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I'm only a little familiar when it was in aircraft, but it shortens the life of the motor as does most chemical injections, varied by the amount of use. Motors these days are designed to take long wear and over engineered, but only by a little bit. The extra pressure on the heads/valves will undoubtedly put more stress on the motor. But I would imagine if used only on occasion it could be fine.

It also generates additional heat and flash heat in the heads. Sometimes the rapid increase in heating can overcome the cooling and damage the valves. Again, the usual pitfalls of chemical performance injection.
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      06-24-2010, 11:37 AM   #3
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Interesting, I'm subscribing.
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      06-24-2010, 02:53 PM   #4
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I've never had good luck with making serious power out of NA motors with Meth. I've found that it provides great knock reduction and raises the effective octane of gasoline, but often times, knock isn't the limiting factor for NA cars. With forced induction, where intake air temps are much higher and combustion chamber pressures are increased, it makes a big difference, but I doubt you'd make significant power on our cars.
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      06-24-2010, 05:49 PM   #5
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it will still help cooling down the motor
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      06-24-2010, 06:34 PM   #6
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Yeah but we've all put an ice cube on the ground in 90 degree weather and watched how fast it melted. Basic physics says that cooling and reheating something rapidly over and over is bad. Who wants to test this on there new S65?

(slowly backing away)
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      06-24-2010, 09:54 PM   #7
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I've dealt with methanol injection on turboed cars, more specifically on a 2.5L EJ257 STi where compressed air heats rapidly due to nature of turbos and heat soak. However I do not foresee any naturally aspirated application worth the risk of hydro locking motors with failed valve stuck open, or motor going way lean when the valve stuck close. There are plenty of check valves and safety measures but in case something goes wrong, the gains are too minimal compared to the risk that is undertaken. Personally would keep it purely on forced induction applications.

The benefits are actually very major, especially with additional cooling capabilities, of atomized methanol drops turning instantly into vapor before actually entering the combustion chambers cools the intake charge quite a bit, so think of it as an additional intercooler in chemical form. And the higher octane of the methanol fuel itself allows boosted application to run quite more pressure on pump gas, that is where the power is gained, the abilities to run say 3-4psi means 30-40whp on my application. Power gained are much higher on other applications where boost can be cranked even higher, say an EVO 8/9 with cams, power gains are signifcant enough to justify the risk of methanol failure. It is essentially playing with fire because mostly cylinder heads are alumium, or worse yet the entire block is composed of aluminum and methaol is corssive to alinium. Another problem is the lower boiling point of methonl, and its natural tendency to absorb moisture out of air, so keeping a dead on air-fuel ratio is hard if the fuel itself is changing properties. Lastly methanol also dilutes oil, so in case it is not 100% burned off, it will raise havoc on oil and recommend much lower oil change intervals.

Those are my findings.
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      06-25-2010, 01:59 AM   #8
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Many thanks for your feedback
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      06-25-2010, 06:25 AM   #9
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Good shit.
cheers.
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      06-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8000 View Post
Guys what do you think of this? Not necessarily for the S65, but in general for NA engines.

Will there be significant power gains with a 15% water / methanol injection? What are the downsides? Anyone has experience on this?

Comments, concerns & feedback are all much appreciated.

It's definitely something that helps more with the forced induction guys. But the beneifts are there.

Cooler IATs allow the tuners to run a more aggressive ignition setup and get more power out of the motor.
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      06-25-2010, 01:09 PM   #11
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so its safe to say when adding meth to a supercharged car , it will raise Oct to reduce knock , keep motor cooler so you can safely advance timing in return will give you more HP ... it looks like its a added precautionary safety for forced induction cars reaching their limits on their setups ?
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      06-25-2010, 01:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
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so its safe to say when adding meth to a supercharged car , it will raise Oct to reduce knock , keep motor cooler so you can safely advance timing in return will give you more HP ... it looks like its a added precautionary safety for forced induction cars reaching their limits on their setups ?
For Forced Induction setups, it's considered a safety blanket as well because you push the threshold of your tune that you normally couldn't do without the cooler charge temps.
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      06-30-2010, 10:23 AM   #13
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Methanol has its main advantages in FI because of the ability to increase timing, not necessarily for just raising boost.

On a couple NA car's we have done testing on with relative scanning and diagnostic equipment, the car with straight methanol injection ran 6* of more timing on its own. That is a substantial amount of timing being added with a substantial amount of power. (Roughly 25 rwhp). This was on a 215 hp inline 6 motor.

On the S65 the gains will be beneficial, but don't rule out the corrosive properties of methanol along with the pressure added if water is added in the mix, as the water cannot compress.
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      11-25-2010, 03:00 AM   #14
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a good question is does the M3 gain power from putting in race gas? If the factory ECU will add timing when running race gas then it will add timing with meth and thus make more power. With all that being said, where would you guys put the meth bung on the the M3?
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      11-25-2010, 07:11 PM   #15
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In the intake pipe, will put methanol in the new e92 once I get a ess kit on it, maybe before.

There are very few risks with methanol if done properly. I run it full time on my 135i with a m10 injector at 200psi (a heck of a lot of spray) with zero issues. I have run 100% water at the track and 100% meth at the strip, both with zero error. It is only corosive when it sits and considering it is evaporated right away it does not sit any where.

Ask Berk Technology (1addicts race guys) about methanol. Or just email coolingmist (meth company)
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      11-27-2010, 11:22 AM   #16
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Ive been running meth in my 335i for a long time. But always on a turbo car, now i want to try it for the octane effect on a NA M3.
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      11-27-2010, 11:50 PM   #17
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Same here!


I will go with a small nozzle and 100% meth
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