BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Evolve Automotive
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-06-2007, 05:07 PM   #1
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

M3 vs M5 0-60 - GEARING!

Guys if you missed it we have all of the gear ratio information for the new beast including the final drive. This makes for some fun spreadsheeting! As you probably know the E46 M3 did not have all that great of a power to weight ratio. It did still manage a pretty impressive 0-62 (5.2 s quoted by BMW but many found more like 4.8 s). It accomplished this through a few things but mostly by low gearing (torque multiplication). The new M3 has a significantly larger final drive than than M5 3.846 vs. 3.62. Taking into account each gear ratio, the final drive, the wheel size, an estimate of drivetrain loss and weight the M3 has a significant advantage in acceleration at almost all rpms in 1st gear (the M5 gets a very slight advantage from 6k- 7k rpm from its pronounced torque peak there).

The % advantage looks something like this:
  • 3000 12%
  • 3500 12%
  • 4000 9%
  • 4500 6%
  • 5000 5%
  • 5500 3%
  • 6000 -3%
  • 6500 -2%
  • 7000 -1%
  • 7500 1%
  • 8000 5%
  • 8250 8%
I figured there would be wheel spin up to at least 3k rpm, maybe higher with a good launch. Redline in 1st gear puts the new M3 at 42 mph, the M5 at 46 mph. The acceleration advantage goes to the M5 across the board at all engine speeds during a maximum acceleration run in all other gears.

(Note: Things missing in my fairly simple analysis: rolling resistance and air resistance. These should be fairly close though for both vehicles)

OK what's next? If that was it the M3 would be the clear winner. The traction from the M5s 285 tires and the .3 - .4 second advantage from SMG vs 6MT on the 1st to 2nd gear shift will also make quite some difference. It is nearly impossible to estimate how much the stronger acceleration in the M3 will be offset by these advantages.

Put some 295 or 305 width tires on the M3 and get it with the dual clutch system and I'd place my bets on the M3 besting the M5 0-60 mph. As it is released, 6MT and stock tires it is going to be really interesting.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 05:24 PM   #2
esquire
Colonel
 
esquire's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 Dakar Yellow M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orange County, California

Posts: 2,800
iTrader: (0)

well done swamp. here's hoping you're right =)
__________________

[ESS VT2-625] [Akrapovic Evolution Exhaust] [KW Clubsports] [OSS Angel Eyes] [Revinora r-CRT Lip]
[Vorsteiner Boot] [Challenge Race Diffuser] [See the Build Thread HERE]
esquire is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 05:43 PM   #3
GregW / Oregon
Commander-In-Chief
 
Drives: 2015 M4 Coupe, 2012 ML350
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lake Oswego, OR

Posts: 7,372
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Gearing

swamp2,
Did you take tire diameter into account? The E92 has larger tires than the E46, and I think the E60 M5 has larger tires still.
__________________

Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA
2015 M4 Coupe - Silverstone/Sakhir/CF
2012 ML350

Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 04-06-2007 at 06:42 PM.
GregW / Oregon is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 06:17 PM   #4
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Did you take tire diameter into account? The E92 has larger tires than the E46, and I think the E60 M5 has larger tires still.
All tire diameters are in my spreadsheet. Although the effect of tire size can be seen it is the individual gear ratios, final drive, torque curve and weight that are the dominant effects.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 06:29 PM   #5
MI6
The World is Not Enough
 
MI6's Avatar
 
Drives: Aston DBS-R
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Skyfall

Posts: 1,051
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Guys if you missed it we have all of the gear ratio information for the new beast including the final drive. This makes for some fun spreadsheeting! As you probably know the E46 M3 did not have all that great of a power to weight ratio. It did still manage a pretty impressive 0-62 (5.2 s quoted by BMW but many found more like 4.8 s). It accomplished this through a few things but mostly by low gearing (torque multiplication). The new M3 has a significantly larger final drive than than M5 3.846 vs. 3.62. Taking into account each gear ratio, the final drive, the wheel size, an estimate of drivetrain loss and weight the M3 has a significant advantage in acceleration at almost all rpms in 1st gear (the M5 gets a very slight advantage from 6k- 7k rpm from its pronounced torque peak there).

The % advantage looks something like this:
  • 3000 12%
  • 3500 12%
  • 4000 9%
  • 4500 6%
  • 5000 5%
  • 5500 3%
  • 6000 -3%
  • 6500 -2%
  • 7000 -1%
  • 7500 1%
  • 8000 5%
  • 8250 8%
I figured there would be wheel spin up to at least 3k rpm, maybe higher with a good launch. Redline in 1st gear puts the new M3 at 42 mph, the M5 at 46 mph. The acceleration advantage goes to the M5 across the board at all engine speeds during a maximum acceleration run in all other gears.

(Note: Things missing in my fairly simple analysis: rolling resistance and air resistance. These should be fairly close though for both vehicles)

OK what's next? If that was it the M3 would be the clear winner. The traction from the M5s 285 tires and the .3 - .4 second advantage from SMG vs 6MT on the 1st to 2nd gear shift will also make quite some difference. It is nearly impossible to estimate how much the stronger acceleration in the M3 will be offset by these advantages.

Put some 295 or 305 width tires on the M3 and get it with the dual clutch system and I'd place my bets on the M3 besting the M5 0-60 mph. As it is released, 6MT and stock tires it is going to be really interesting.
If you look at the temperature inversion of 5% plus the aerodynamic extrapolation of .8% and using the energy formula of E=mc 2 you can see why Bernoulli's theorem gives the M3 a .5% advantage.............

MI6 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 07:00 PM   #6
monsta
Brigadier General
 
monsta's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen County, NJ/Y.O, NY

Posts: 3,591
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Guys if you missed it we have all of the gear ratio information for the new beast including the final drive. This makes for some fun spreadsheeting! As you probably know the E46 M3 did not have all that great of a power to weight ratio. It did still manage a pretty impressive 0-62 (5.2 s quoted by BMW but many found more like 4.8 s). It accomplished this through a few things but mostly by low gearing (torque multiplication). The new M3 has a significantly larger final drive than than M5 3.846 vs. 3.62. Taking into account each gear ratio, the final drive, the wheel size, an estimate of drivetrain loss and weight the M3 has a significant advantage in acceleration at almost all rpms in 1st gear (the M5 gets a very slight advantage from 6k- 7k rpm from its pronounced torque peak there).

The % advantage looks something like this:
  • 3000 12%
  • 3500 12%
  • 4000 9%
  • 4500 6%
  • 5000 5%
  • 5500 3%
  • 6000 -3%
  • 6500 -2%
  • 7000 -1%
  • 7500 1%
  • 8000 5%
  • 8250 8%
I figured there would be wheel spin up to at least 3k rpm, maybe higher with a good launch. Redline in 1st gear puts the new M3 at 42 mph, the M5 at 46 mph. The acceleration advantage goes to the M5 across the board at all engine speeds during a maximum acceleration run in all other gears.

(Note: Things missing in my fairly simple analysis: rolling resistance and air resistance. These should be fairly close though for both vehicles)

OK what's next? If that was it the M3 would be the clear winner. The traction from the M5s 285 tires and the .3 - .4 second advantage from SMG vs 6MT on the 1st to 2nd gear shift will also make quite some difference. It is nearly impossible to estimate how much the stronger acceleration in the M3 will be offset by these advantages.

Put some 295 or 305 width tires on the M3 and get it with the dual clutch system and I'd place my bets on the M3 besting the M5 0-60 mph. As it is released, 6MT and stock tires it is going to be really interesting.
wow thats an interesting analysis, I can't wait to do some real world testing w/ my M5 boys...M3>M5 0-60 probably true since M5 is has trouble from a dig since its torque is low we'll see how we fair out but after 60 I hope we can keep up... M5
__________________

'08 E92 M3 6MT | IB | FR | RAC RG63's | VRS Ti Exhaust | Fabspeed HFC & Xpipe
'09 X5 35d SG/SB
'11 X3 28i AW/CN/FW (wife's car
monsta is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2007, 10:55 PM   #7
Epacy
Reincarnated
 
Epacy's Avatar
 
Drives: 02 Maxima SE
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: IL

Posts: 4,227
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 M3  [0.00]
Was going to make a thread about the gearing. What is everyone's take on the numbers and what do you think it correlates to?
__________________
Epacy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-07-2007, 03:16 PM   #8
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MI6 View Post
If you look at the temperature inversion of 5% plus the aerodynamic extrapolation of .8% and using the energy formula of E=mc 2 you can see why Bernoulli's theorem gives the M3 a .5% advantage.............

Is this admiration of science or dising me for being too technical?
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-08-2007, 04:05 AM   #9
ndahbar
Private First Class
 
ndahbar's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 530i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: MA

Posts: 112
iTrader: (0)

Also note that the new M3 uses the exact same gearbox as the 335i, but of course with a much more aggressive final drive ratio (3.846 vs 3.08).

Of course, this is referring to manual 6-spd in both cars.

If you want to verify this, look at the recently-released press kit PDF (all the way down) and then look up the 335i manual ratios on bmwusa.com, for example (under technical data).
ndahbar is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-08-2007, 10:32 AM   #10
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

Noticed that

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndahbar View Post
Also note that the new M3 uses the exact same gearbox as the 335i, but of course with a much more aggressive final drive ratio (3.846 vs 3.08).

Of course, this is referring to manual 6-spd in both cars.

If you want to verify this, look at the recently-released press kit PDF (all the way down) and then look up the 335i manual ratios on bmwusa.com, for example (under technical data).
I noticed the exact same thing immediately as well doing my spreadsheeting. One thing I conclude from this is that the 6MT in the M3 will actually be the tranny from the 335i. Since the two cars produce about the same torque the 335i unit should serve the M3 just fine. All gears exactly the same is just too much coincidence. BMW needs to save every penny they can, many engine parts from M5, many chassis parts from 335i, brakes from M5, ... tranny from 335i. Makes no difference to me, but I think Scott, our insider, claimed that the 6MT was developed specifically for the M3.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-08-2007, 12:39 PM   #11
Epacy
Reincarnated
 
Epacy's Avatar
 
Drives: 02 Maxima SE
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: IL

Posts: 4,227
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 M3  [0.00]
So, does the gearing lend itself to low-end acceleration?
__________________
Epacy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-08-2007, 02:04 PM   #12
M3onTwomps
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: '02 E46 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Sandbox

Posts: 319
iTrader: (0)

Here's a neat tool posted by Carver on M3forum.com:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/shifter.html
M3onTwomps is offline   Iraq
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 08:56 AM   #13
M&M
Captain
 
M&M's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 Competition Pack
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posts: 661
iTrader: (0)

SMG doesn't have a 0.4 sec advantage shifting from 1st to 2nd.
M&M is offline   South Africa
0
Reply With Quote
      09-04-2007, 06:23 PM   #14
Sharpshot
New Member
 
Drives: 996 Porsche Turbo S Conv
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, England

Posts: 5
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M View Post
SMG doesn't have a 0.4 sec advantage shifting from 1st to 2nd.
Okay, then tell us what it has. Can't just say that without proving yourself.
Sharpshot is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-05-2007, 01:31 PM   #15
M&M
Captain
 
M&M's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 Competition Pack
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posts: 661
iTrader: (0)

It has no advantage over someone who can shift.
M&M is offline   South Africa
0
Reply With Quote
      09-26-2007, 07:54 PM   #16
Driver72
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California

Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Why do people really care about 0-60 mph times? They meant something way back in the day when that was a big test of performance for cars.

Now, 1/4 mile is what you need to look at for acceleration from a dig.
And I wish their would be more tests of acceleration times of 30-100 mph starting in 2nd gear for all cars and for faster cars a 50-130 mph starting in the best gear for each car.

BTW, to the OP a 0-62.1 mph (0-100 kph) time in 5.2 seconds would be about right for a car that did 0-60 in 4.9 seconds.

Now back to the topic at hand, I think the M5 will beat the e92 M3 in acceleration, especially as speeds climb into triple digits.
The M5 is a beast above 100 mph.
But the M3 won't be too far behind
Driver72 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-26-2007, 09:17 PM   #17
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

Follow up

I agree 0-60 is more like bragging rights and is seriously launch/traction limited. I did however, just run some E92 6MT vs. E60 M5 SMG simulations with CarTest (have you seen my other posts on this topic - the software has been shown to be quite accurate and predictive). It shows the M3 getting the jump in time to distance (not necessarily time to speed) vs. the M5 up to about 80 mph (rougly 8 or so seconds). Then as we might say "intuitively" the M5 really pulls ahead. Of couse the M-DCT will likely stay physically ahead in a drag for quite a bit longer, perhaps up to even the 150 mph territory, if it can get a good launch with that system.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-26-2007, 10:31 PM   #18
Driver72
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California

Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

yeah, I have had CarTest for years.
But unless you adjusted the shift speeds of the SMG, that will be off.
Also, I noticed, CarTest doesn't do well with Forced Induced engines ( I know that isn't relative with the M cars).
And lastly, many engines are underrated (like the 335i) so it's hard to use CarTest accurately in those cases.
But granted it is pretty accurate a lot of the time, at least the ET's in the 1/4 but for some reason the 1/4 mile traps (and speeds into the triple digits) are often listed on CarTest as being a decent amount slower than what the car's really do.

Sill, I don't see the e92 doing 0-60 times better than 4.4 seconds (like the M5)
The M5's are also doing the 1/4 in the low 12's @ 115+ mph
I think with the E92 M3 you'll see the following best times:
12.6-12.7 @ 111-112ish for the manual
12.5-12.6 @ 112-113ish for the DSG version
Driver72 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      09-27-2007, 01:37 AM   #19
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

CarTest, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver72 View Post
yeah, I have had CarTest for years.
But unless you adjusted the shift speeds of the SMG, that will be off.
Also, I noticed, CarTest doesn't do well with Forced Induced engines ( I know that isn't relative with the M cars).
And lastly, many engines are underrated (like the 335i) so it's hard to use CarTest accurately in those cases.
But granted it is pretty accurate a lot of the time, at least the ET's in the 1/4 but for some reason the 1/4 mile traps (and speeds into the triple digits) are often listed on CarTest as being a decent amount slower than what the car's really do.

Sill, I don't see the e92 doing 0-60 times better than 4.4 seconds (like the M5)
The M5's are also doing the 1/4 in the low 12's @ 115+ mph
I think with the E92 M3 you'll see the following best times:
12.6-12.7 @ 111-112ish for the manual
12.5-12.6 @ 112-113ish for the DSG version
CarTest FTW! You not only have to adjust the shift times manually to match SMG or DCT but you also have to change the integration time step too a much smaller value. See my post on M3 vs R8 via CarTest here then look at my post #40 where I followed up with the dialed in DCT simulations.

I also noticed the same problems with FI engines. The 335i is particularly difficult to get right as it is not only FI but under-rated as well.

AFA besting the 4.4 0-60 time I suspect we will see it. It won't be the average time reported by mags but C&D already got 4.4 and they claimed the road surfaced sucked and was quite slick. With M-DCT we will definitely see that number as you'll save about .25 seconds on the 1-2 shift before 50 mph.

I think your predictions of the 1/4 mi times are pretty close although the best yet for the MT seems to be only 12.9 thus far (but again same slick surface here from C&D).
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      09-30-2007, 09:58 PM   #20
Driver72
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 335i - to new owners now.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California

Posts: 4,485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisk View Post
the e92 M3 6spd manual tranny is being used in the 335i manual aswell without oil cooler, and a 335i 6spd manual with chip and exhaust already kept up with a modded M5. will be interesting.

Just to be clear, the 335i I think you're speaking of (Sherwin's car) had a lot more than just the PROcede v2.0 and an exhaust.
It also had Downpipes, larger intercooler and I can't remember what else is on Sherwin's car.
And it only kept up until about 120 mph from a 50 ish mph roll), after that the lightly modded E60 M5's pulled away.
I think a PROceded v2.0 335i with just exhaust would keep up with a stock e60 M5 until about 120 mph too, but the little screaming V10 would pull after that.
I also think a 335i with PROcede v2.0 alone will run side by side with the e92 M3
Driver72 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-01-2007, 01:07 PM   #21
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,075
iTrader: (1)

Drags

Brisk, Driver72P: As I have stated (too many times to recount). If all you want is a drag car you will be able to spend less than the price differnce between the M3 and 335i and best the M3. However, the if all you really want it the best drag time you should spend a lot less on a used Mustang and supercharge and nitrous it!

The M3 is about A LOT more than draging.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:43 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST