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      11-16-2010, 12:24 PM   #45
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sono il pilota della M3 mi presento

ciao a tutti sono il pilota della M3 e92 che e stata coinvolta in questa brutta storia....

come ho appena letto molti di voi mi ritengono il vero respoonsabile di questa triste storia, ma forse molti di voi non sono mai stati al ring.... mi spiego meglio

prima di entrare in pista ci sta il brifing, dove ti vengono date delle regole ben precise, e come rima regola ci sta quella di aspettare che l'auto che precede accende la freccia e ti faccia passare... cosa che non e stata fatta

la dinamica dell'incidente e andata in questo modo, io ho ritardato la frenata alla wippermann, arrivando un pò lungo, e la macchina mi e andata in leggero sovrasterzo, quindi per riprendere la macchina ho invaso leggermente la corsia

ma cosa più importante non ho visto assolutamente la evo alle mie spalle, e anche se l'avessi vista non avrei fatto in tempo per farlo passare, lui doveva aspettare che riprendesi la traiettoria e accendessi la freccia dandogli strada, ma ha voluto rischiare e ne ha pagato le conseguenze....

poi altra cosa, dopo l'impatto mi sono fermato, e quando ho visto il pilota scendere dalla macchina che stava bene, mi sono allontanato, perchè ero a rischio tamponamento, quindi prima di giudicare si farebbe bene a sapere regole e coignizione dei fatti, perchè quella non era una gara, ma un semplice td, e se quello con la evo guidava per fare il best lap al nurburging in un semplice td, deve valutare anche questi inconvenienti, e assumersi tutte le responsabilita

scusate se ho scritto tanto e spero non vi ho annoiato alla prossima
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      11-16-2010, 12:38 PM   #46
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^^^ +1 What he said.

Rubbin' is Racin'
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      11-16-2010, 01:02 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ange1982 View Post
ciao a tutti sono il pilota della M3 e92 che e stata coinvolta in questa brutta storia....

come ho appena letto molti di voi mi ritengono il vero respoonsabile di questa triste storia, ma forse molti di voi non sono mai stati al ring.... mi spiego meglio

prima di entrare in pista ci sta il brifing, dove ti vengono date delle regole ben precise, e come rima regola ci sta quella di aspettare che l'auto che precede accende la freccia e ti faccia passare... cosa che non e stata fatta

la dinamica dell'incidente e andata in questo modo, io ho ritardato la frenata alla wippermann, arrivando un pò lungo, e la macchina mi e andata in leggero sovrasterzo, quindi per riprendere la macchina ho invaso leggermente la corsia

ma cosa più importante non ho visto assolutamente la evo alle mie spalle, e anche se l'avessi vista non avrei fatto in tempo per farlo passare, lui doveva aspettare che riprendesi la traiettoria e accendessi la freccia dandogli strada, ma ha voluto rischiare e ne ha pagato le conseguenze....

poi altra cosa, dopo l'impatto mi sono fermato, e quando ho visto il pilota scendere dalla macchina che stava bene, mi sono allontanato, perchè ero a rischio tamponamento, quindi prima di giudicare si farebbe bene a sapere regole e coignizione dei fatti, perchè quella non era una gara, ma un semplice td, e se quello con la evo guidava per fare il best lap al nurburging in un semplice td, deve valutare anche questi inconvenienti, e assumersi tutte le responsabilita

scusate se ho scritto tanto e spero non vi ho annoiato alla prossima
heres a rough translation from freetranslation.com:

Hello to all I am the pilot of the M3 e92 that and been involved in this ugly story. ...

how just I read a lot of you retain myself the true respoonsabile of this sad story, but perhaps a lot of you never were at the ring. ... I explain me better

before to enter in track there it the brifing is, where they come you given of the quite precise rules, and like rhyme regulates there is that of to wait for that the car that precedes lights the arrow and passerby make you... thing that not and been done

the dynamics of the incidente and gone this way, I delayed restrained it to the wippermann, a long pò arriving, and the car me and gone in light sovrasterzo, therefore to take again the car potted slightly the lane

But more important thing I did not see absolutely the age to my shoulders, and even if had seen it I would not have done in time for to make it pass, he should wait for that taken again the trajectory and lit the arrow dandogli road, but wanted to risk and paid of it the results. ...

then other thing, after the impact I have stopped, and when I saw the pilot to come down from the car that was well, I have removed, because I was at risk collision, therefore before judge would have been done well to know rules and coignizione of the facts, because that is not a competition, but a simple td, and if that with the age drove to do the best lap to the nurburging in a simple td, has to to appraise also these drawbacks, and to take on itself all the responsabilita

you excuse if I wrote a lot and I hope I did not bother yourselves to the next one
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      11-16-2010, 01:08 PM   #48
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      11-16-2010, 03:07 PM   #49
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It's a trackday not a race - poor driving from the M3 but the EVO is at fault, clearly a stupid place to pass a much slower car.
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      11-16-2010, 03:30 PM   #50
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some guys just can't handle vegas
hahaha.
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      11-16-2010, 08:10 PM   #51
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both at fault..
looks like video game though
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      11-16-2010, 09:28 PM   #52
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The M3 was not on the accepted line and got loose. Evo had nowhere to go.
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      11-16-2010, 09:34 PM   #53
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some guys just can't handle vegas
Hahaha!!!!
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      11-16-2010, 09:36 PM   #54
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never thought the driver of the M3 would post in this thread
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      11-16-2010, 10:41 PM   #55
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Very unfortunate for the Evo driver, love that turbo sound car was damn quick!

But, having looked at the video several times, I have to agree with what appears to be the majority. Personally, if I'd been driving the Evo (yeah, I know, in MY DREAMS), I think I would have been a tad more circumspect with the passing maneuver.

Interesting thread mind, love a good debate

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      11-17-2010, 12:12 AM   #56
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The overtaking car, Evo, assumes all responsibility when passing to avoid the slower car. This was a lapping track day, not a race. Also the Evo did not get a point by or turn signal from the M3 to indicate consent to pass. As an example, you can see the previous car, the Porsche, puts his right turn signal on to give passing consent.

The Evo was driving too aggressively, again it's not a race, he should have slowed and waited for a better (safer) opportunity to pass.
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      11-17-2010, 05:57 PM   #57
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never thought the driver of the M3 would post in this thread
Even more amazing is how many people have posted opinions who have never even seen the track much less driven a lap on it.
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      11-17-2010, 06:46 PM   #58
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EVO's fault
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      11-17-2010, 07:11 PM   #59
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...m3's fault, I've only got 13 laps under my belt on the ring, but from that angle, the m3 was a TAD out of the area for that up coming corner.. he shouldnt have been that far to the right to swerve left and also while swerving left you have to look in your left mirror, where the evo would of been coming up.
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      11-17-2010, 07:23 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringmeister View Post
Even more amazing is how many people have posted opinions who have never even seen the track much less driven a lap on it.
The track doesn't matter, the Evo made an unsafe pass on a lapping day without a signal or point by. The passing car has the responsibility to execute a safe pass.

BTW, how do you know who has or doesn't have ring experience?
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      11-17-2010, 07:41 PM   #61
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^he doesn't
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      11-17-2010, 08:06 PM   #62
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Sigh...Where to begin?

The game was over the second the M3 tapped his brakes in the middle of a very high speed turn. Whether he was on or off line was immaterial, where he tapped his brakes left the EVO absolutely NO PLACE TO GO.

By tapping his brakes at speed in a turn, the M3 pretty much guaranteed a spin. There's no way the EVO could have slowed down given his position and speed, since by either lifting off of throttle or braking to avoid rear ending the M3 he would have spun himself. The only other option is to t-bone the M3.

We're assuming that he's attempting to PASS the M3 without consent...Well, consent or not, that M3 was going to spin out in front of him. Personally? I think the EVO attempted the best option available to him at the time and actually managed to minimize damage to both parties.

I think the only "fault" of the EVO was assuming that other drivers on the track are semi-capable of handling their cars. In an environment where I can not guarantee that the drivers around me has an ounce of skill I would have exercised a little bit more caution.
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      11-17-2010, 09:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Sigh...Where to begin?

The game was over the second the M3 tapped his brakes in the middle of a very high speed turn. Whether he was on or off line was immaterial, where he tapped his brakes left the EVO absolutely NO PLACE TO GO.

By tapping his brakes at speed in a turn, the M3 pretty much guaranteed a spin. There's no way the EVO could have slowed down given his position and speed, since by either lifting off of throttle or braking to avoid rear ending the M3 he would have spun himself. The only other option is to t-bone the M3.

We're assuming that he's attempting to PASS the M3 without consent...Well, consent or not, that M3 was going to spin out in front of him. Personally? I think the EVO attempted the best option available to him at the time and actually managed to minimize damage to both parties.

I think the only "fault" of the EVO was assuming that other drivers on the track are semi-capable of handling their cars. In an environment where I can not guarantee that the drivers around me has an ounce of skill I would have exercised a little bit more caution.
It doesn't appear that the M3 was braking all that hard, if you freeze the video the moment the M3 brake lights come on you can see the Evo has options at that point. The most conservative option would be to get on the brakes hard while continuing out to mid track and not staying left to the apex. The Evo makes no attempt to slow and (according to the G-meter) has some tire traction available to slow. Seems to me that the Evo was too concerned about getting a sub 8 minute lap time instead of trying to avoid a situation with the M3 (basing some of that on the comments on youtube).

Obviously the Evo driver knows the ring. He should have seen that the M3 driver was totally off line (pinching the entry) and could have actually backed off to give the M3 some room before the brake lights came on.

Certainly the M3 screwed up, but the accident was the fault of the Evo who never used his brakes prior to being clipped by the M3.

It's easy to Monday morning QB this situation, who knows how I would have reacted if I'd been there. I've been close to cars that spun in front of me and have always been able to avoid contact (knock on wood). With experience you can predict some bad situations before they actually occur.

Here's an example of a no contact spin (skip ahead to 9:15 for the spin):

Be wary of my rear view mirror actuated spin control device.
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Last edited by skierman64; 11-17-2010 at 10:15 PM.
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      11-19-2010, 12:15 PM   #64
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It doesn't appear that the M3 was braking all that hard, if you freeze the video the moment the M3 brake lights come on you can see the Evo has options at that point. The most conservative option would be to get on the brakes hard while continuing out to mid track and not staying left to the apex. The Evo makes no attempt to slow and (according to the G-meter) has some tire traction available to slow. Seems to me that the Evo was too concerned about getting a sub 8 minute lap time instead of trying to avoid a situation with the M3 (basing some of that on the comments on youtube).

Obviously the Evo driver knows the ring. He should have seen that the M3 driver was totally off line (pinching the entry) and could have actually backed off to give the M3 some room before the brake lights came on.

Certainly the M3 screwed up, but the accident was the fault of the Evo who never used his brakes prior to being clipped by the M3.

It's easy to Monday morning QB this situation, who knows how I would have reacted if I'd been there. I've been close to cars that spun in front of me and have always been able to avoid contact (knock on wood). With experience you can predict some bad situations before they actually occur.

Here's an example of a no contact spin (skip ahead to 9:15 for the spin):

Be wary of my rear view mirror actuated spin control device.
Exactly.

Yes the Evo driver seemed to be more experienced than the M3 driver.
Yes, the M3 is the one that was off the lines.

But, it's the Evo's fault for the accident because he assumed the whole track was his so everyone had to get out of his way when he wanted to pass.

The M3 obviously didn't give him the consent to pass.
He was out of shape and was looking to correct his mistake, not looking to correct his mistake while staying on the right side of the track so speedy can pass. Jesus, how many obstacles does he have to deal with in a split second.
On a track day, if the guy in front of you is losing control, get out of his way and let him recuperate before you try and overcome someone that doesn't have control of their car.

That's like seeing someone do a 360 in front of you and bouncing off the wall and instead of letting the car come to a stop, you decide to time his spins and wall bounces just right so you can pass and not have to lose some seconds off your lap time. Well if you don't time it right and you hit him, it's your fault! He had no control of his car, while you had FULL control of yours.
Thus, you had FULL control of the situation and it's your fault.


BTW. You can tell he has full control because when the M3 hits the brakes, the Evo is only pulling 0.4-0.6 lateral G's and pretty much costing; not braking or accelerating.
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      11-19-2010, 12:31 PM   #65
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1.Men go to Nurburgring.
2.Men crash into each other at Nurburgring.
3.Men spend the rest of time debating whose fault it was despite fact that both did 1(above).

YAWN - that's what I say ......................
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      11-19-2010, 01:19 PM   #66
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1.Men go to Nurburgring.
2.Men crash into each other at Nurburgring.
3.Men spend the rest of time debating whose fault it was despite fact that both did 1(above).

YAWN - that's what I say ......................
What are you saying man?

Just because you go to a race track does not give anyone the right to hit you, or you the right to hit them.
That's still your personal car and the other drivers personal car.
They are not bumper cars so you have to exercise caution. No one wants to crash, but if a crash does happen, faults will definitely be debated.

If you enter a turn and the guy behind you gets pissed that you passed him, if he decides to not brake behind you but instead clip your inner rear tire to send you into a 180 spin right into a wall, does that make it ok because it's just "men at the nurburing"?
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