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      10-19-2010, 09:26 AM   #89
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interesting thread. I find it extremely hard to believe that a 6MT will not be offered. Indeed, I think many BMW owners, whether they own a 6MT or not, believe that offering a 6MT makes BMW unique in their dedication to the purist driving experience. My opinion of the brand would undoubtedly deteriorate, and I think they would lose some customers to Porsche.

Good to hear that they will continue to offer a sedan.
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      10-19-2010, 09:50 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The (E92)3er Coupe debuted in April 2006 and Launched at the Paris Autoshow in September 2006. The 3er Cabrio (E93) debuted in October 2006 and debuted at the NAIAS , Detroit January 2007.
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The 3er Coupe (F32) will debut in the early part of 2013 making it's debut in Geneva. The 3er Cabrio (F33) will debut in the summer of 2013 possible IAA 2013 debut.
Ok so, the coupe/cabrio timeline is moved forward a little this generation. However, what was the last order date for the E46 3 series and M3 coupe/cab? Wasn't it right up until July 2006 or so, perhaps a bit earlier for the M3 than the 3 series? If so, that should put the respective E92/E93 dates early 2013 I'd think. Though I could see how the M3 last order date could possibly be late 2012. However, at that point, will they even bother with a 2013 MY M3? Its a big question mark.

Quote:
The Chinese market 3er Sedan (F34) will debut at Beijing that April.

3er Gran Turismo (F35) ( 3er GT and 3er Li share the same wheelbase)- the new addition to the 3er family will debut in 2013.
Thanks for the info on those, especially model codes. So, any chance BMW will pursue M variants of the 3 GT and 5 GT (and 1 GT for that matter)?
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      10-19-2010, 09:53 AM   #91
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The reason for an production end must not necessarily have to do with the end of produktion from the base model ... if emission laws are getting tighter, it could be possible that it is too costly to modify an engine for an rest production life of half an year!
Possible, yes. It's happened with other cars in the past.
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      10-19-2010, 10:00 AM   #92
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      10-19-2010, 10:02 AM   #93
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very interesting thread. Looking forward to new developments. Like everyone else said lets hope there is a 6mt option. we will just have to wait and see.
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      10-19-2010, 11:20 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Post is ignorant.
Computers do everything better. It's just a matter of time. MTs are slow compared to a good AT. They shift faster, and are more efficient. I got sick of driving a MT. A DCT is the way to go.
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      10-19-2010, 11:29 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Spoken like a true 335 owner...
+1

Maybe BMW doesn't need to come out with a completely new design.
All they need to do is hire a few of the rocket scientists from here to teach them how to mod the 335.
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      10-19-2010, 11:30 AM   #96
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would anyone of you take the 991 turbo? if your answer is yes, then I don't see a reason why a turbo m can't sell. In fact, I think it would sell like hot cake because the fast and furious crowds love the boost. remember there are lot of fast and furious among us.

they should just keep the current v8, add stop/start function, brake regenerate whatever, add direct injection, add a super charger download, then turbo charge it at the same time. I think this should save development cost, no?

if the new m stay around 3400lbs and 500hp. Still porky, but I think that is achievable.

mt should be standard.
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      10-19-2010, 11:33 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
Computers do everything better. It's just a matter of time. MTs are slow compared to a good AT. They shift faster, and are more efficient. I got sick of driving a MT. A DCT is the way to go.
The MT is a dinosaur in terms of its likelihood to survive into the future.

BMW is thinking global instead of niche market. From an accounting standpoint it makes no sense to continue offering a manual transmission that is really used in a very small percentage of their product line.

I'm sure they are willing to lose a few sales to purists who demand a MT in their sports cars -- because they sell a hell of a lot more SUVs and sedans with ATs to make up the difference.

Hell even Porsche purists admit the PDK shifts faster and better and gets better fuel economy than the manual transmission. I think the MT is going to be a very small % of Porsche future sales too -- and as soon as that happens the bean counters will kill it.
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      10-19-2010, 11:35 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by graider View Post
would anyone of you take the 991 turbo? if your answer is yes, then I don't see a reason why a turbo m can't sell. In fact, I think it would sell like hot cake because the fast and furious crowds love the boost. remember there are lot of fast and furious among us.
I would take a GT3 before I would take a new TT because I do not like the power delivery on a turbo or supercharged engine for proper enthusiastic driving.
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      10-19-2010, 11:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by AMPowerJ View Post
Not true. The M3s share virtually no body panels with the 3series cars. I don't remember the exact statistic but almost every body panel is different.
Most panels, Ash. The trunk and the doors are shared. The hood, front bumper, rear bumper, front quarter panels, and rear panels + roof are unique.
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      10-19-2010, 11:42 AM   #100
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great thread, excluding the 6MT vs. DCT conjecture.

a couple comments to add:
1. not sure where i heard, but i think the current Roundel, mention of a M3-GT variant as a possibility
2. i remember comment that BMW will move to DCT for larger cars and stick with 6MT (pun!) available for smaller cars. not sure where the M3 falls on the big/small issue, but if the new M5 has an available 6MT, you'd have to assume the F3X will also have this available.
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      10-19-2010, 11:46 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor J View Post
The MT is a dinosaur in terms of its likelihood to survive into the future.

BMW is thinking global instead of niche market. From an accounting standpoint it makes no sense to continue offering a manual transmission that is really used in a very small percentage of their product line.

I'm sure they are willing to lose a few sales to purists who demand a MT in their sports cars -- because they sell a hell of a lot more SUVs and sedans with ATs to make up the difference.

Hell even Porsche purists admit the PDK shifts faster and better and gets better fuel economy than the manual transmission. I think the MT is going to be a very small % of Porsche future sales too -- and as soon as that happens the bean counters will kill it.
Agreed. Whether we like it or not (and I don't, even though I drive a DCT), the winds of change are blowing. DCTs, heavily boosted steering, drive-by-wire throttles, hill assists, lane minders, automated parking, bumper-mounted radar, cameras, dozens of airbags, automatic mirrors, collision warnings, and a whole slew of other automated technologies will continue to appear in all future cars until eventually the driver becomes unnecessary.

Sorry to go off-topic...
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      10-19-2010, 12:06 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
+1

Maybe BMW doesn't need to come out with a completely new design.
All they need to do is hire a few of the rocket scientists from here to teach them how to mod the 335.
Sorry. Mine is stock. I'll buy the next M3 if it is AWD, but that will again piss off the purists, because it won't have a MT, and isn't RWD.

That's the only reason I didn't buy an M3 this time around. I need AWD. I just can't afford a M3, and a X6.
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      10-19-2010, 12:35 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
+1

Maybe BMW doesn't need to come out with a completely new design.
All they need to do is hire a few of the rocket scientists from here to teach them how to mod the 335.
Well, Professional Mechanical Engineer, with a minor in Manufacturing Engineering. So, actually, more qualified than a rocket scientist for this discussion.

My point, that you completely missed while struggling to come up with a smart ass reply, is that the M's are increasingly just as you describe, just slightly modded 3's. Obviously according to your defenition of "modded", they always have been, but a few bolt on suspension members, stroked engine, and... (oh yes, body panels )

Let me be clear, I'm NOT hating on the M3. In fact, I think it's generally the best sports sedan out of the box. Stock to stock, it handles better than any other 3. It's a great engine, a true swan song to NA (unfortunately). For me, I race bikes and karts, and need to tow a trailer (yes, crazy, I tow a trailer) so went with the 335, modded the hell out of it, and now it's an even better car than it started out. 530hp/530tq at the crank, 1.2G cornering on our local road course, beat 70% of the exotics at Race the Base 300kph top speed event, with a trailer hitch and baby seat in the back.

So please understand my comments aren't a 335 vs M3 flame war, I'm simply pointing out that when you look at the numbers: light weight, cheap, fast, handling... the 335 embodies the original M spirit pretty well.

This is a thread about the future direction of the M. And like many here, it seems like more and more it's the bean counters taking control at M; which for years they'd successfully prevented from happening. Corvette and Mustang are doing better at staying true to their roots these days.
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      10-19-2010, 12:43 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
+1. M SUVs are awful.

A Z4M with the V8 would be sick! I would def pick up one of those so long as its not a hardtop vert.
The Z4 M definitely will not have the V8, and almost certainly will only be offered as with the folding hard-top.
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      10-19-2010, 12:44 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor J View Post
The MT is a dinosaur in terms of its likelihood to survive into the future.

BMW is thinking global instead of niche market. From an accounting standpoint it makes no sense to continue offering a manual transmission that is really used in a very small percentage of their product line.

I'm sure they are willing to lose a few sales to purists who demand a MT in their sports cars -- because they sell a hell of a lot more SUVs and sedans with ATs to make up the difference.

Hell even Porsche purists admit the PDK shifts faster and better and gets better fuel economy than the manual transmission. I think the MT is going to be a very small % of Porsche future sales too -- and as soon as that happens the bean counters will kill it.

To me sometimes its not about being more efficient or being able to shift faster. There is something about driving a 6mt that a DCT transmission cannot substitute. I could careless if it can shift faster than me or if it saves me gas money. For me its all about the feeling of driving the car and without a clutch pedal I can't say that I fully enjoy it. Yes I have driven the DCT quite a bit and use to own an SMG e46.
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      10-19-2010, 01:02 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Poofyo101 View Post
To me sometimes its not about being more efficient or being able to shift faster. There is something about driving a 6mt that a DCT transmission cannot substitute. I could careless if it can shift faster than me or if it saves me gas money. For me its all about the feeling of driving the car and without a clutch pedal I can't say that I fully enjoy it. Yes I have driven the DCT quite a bit and use to own an SMG e46.

that's what they said about the pencil when the typewriter came out
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      10-19-2010, 01:10 PM   #107
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that's what they said about the pencil when the typewriter came out
Still plenty of people using pencils, but who uses a typewriter anymore?
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      10-19-2010, 01:16 PM   #108
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Still plenty of people using pencils, but who uses a typewriter anymore?
exactly my point

technological evolution

it's inevitable. you move with it or you don't

there are some people that still don't have cell phones but that number is diminishing very quickly. very few lament the loss of the rotary dial because it was fun to row through the numbers to have a connection with the phone.
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      10-19-2010, 01:25 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor J View Post
exactly my point

technological evolution

it's inevitable. you move with it or you don't

there are some people that still don't have cell phones but that number is diminishing very quickly. very few lament the loss of the rotary dial because it was fun to row through the numbers to have a connection with the phone.
Well, I'm confused because the pencil/typewriter analogy seems to imply the exact opposite. The old technology (pencil) is still around while the new technology (typewriter) was eventually replaced by something newer.

So by that analogy, in 50 years, many people will be driving some new-fangled transmission that shifts gears in some way that I can't even comprehend while a healthy percentage will still be driving a plain ole manual.
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      10-19-2010, 01:32 PM   #110
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Lame example. No one ever dialed a phone for "entertainment and dialing pleasure" while cars are driven in huge numbers for "entertainment and driving pleasure". So no one could not have cared less about rotary dial phones.

Apples to oranges comparison. Makes no sense. A more applicable counter-example is how Wii destroyed PS3 in the video games market despite its inferior video and processor design. Why?? Simple answer is physical involvement. Wii went back to the basics as far as 70s and 80s for inspiration. It requires all four limbs to be used while PS3 required two thumbs to be used.

So where to draw the line? Where does technological evolution for the sake of automation stop?? What about steering?? Tommorow BMW announces the next technological evolution of M cars having complete database of all tracks around the world. You simply go to a track and run the fastest laps imaginable while internal algorithms using sensors on every side of the car figure out how to take the best line, best braking, steering angle, best cornering speed to get the fastest lap time and make the turns. Would you support it too??

That would be boring as hell where the missing element is the physical effort, but hey it is another technological evolution. More technology and more automation always is a good thing. Right??


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Originally Posted by Doctor J View Post
exactly my point

technological evolution

it's inevitable. you move with it or you don't

there are some people that still don't have cell phones but that number is diminishing very quickly. very few lament the loss of the rotary dial because it was fun to row through the numbers to have a connection with the phone.
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Last edited by 330CIZHP; 10-19-2010 at 01:38 PM.
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