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      07-25-2010, 09:20 PM   #1
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U.S. funds Pakistan, while they support Taliban

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,5560351.story

How and Why are they allowing this to happen??!!


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By Christi Parsons, Tribune Washington Bureau
July 26, 2010
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Reporting from Washington
The White House late Sunday condemned the leaking of what appear to be about 90,000 U.S. military records, as a handful of international media organizations that received access to the documents began to disclose their account of the war in Afghanistan.

In a statement, President Obama's national security advisor, Marine Gen. James L. Jones, deplored the "disclosure of classified information" that he said could put the lives of Americans and U.S. partners at risk and threaten the nation's security.

Don't miss a thing. Get breaking news alerts delivered to your inbox.

The website WikiLeaks, which posted the documents late Sunday, provided them ahead of time to the New York Times, the Guardian newspaper in London and the German magazine Der Spiegel, and journalists from those organizations asked the White House for comment. The Los Angeles Times and other Tribune newspapers have not thoroughly reviewed the documents nor verified their authenticity.
According to the New York Times, the documents, which it received several weeks ago, refer to previously unreported incidents of Afghan civilian deaths in the NATO military operations.

The documents also appear to include classified cables and other communications among military leaders, and describe in detail long-reported U.S. fears that some intelligence officials in Pakistan were actually helping the Taliban in Afghanistan, even as the U.S. poured foreign aid into both countries.

According to the New York Times, the documents as a whole suggest that Pakistan has let representatives of its intelligence agency strategize with the Taliban and even plot to assassinate Afghan leaders.

Of particular note is that the documents reportedly say the Taliban has acquired surface-to-air missiles. If true, that could help explain recent crashes of NATO and U.S. helicopters in Afghanistan and could have a significant effect on ground operations.

The documents posted by WikiLeaks reportedly cover the period from January 2004 to December 2009, shortly before Obama announced a strategy of focusing on Al Qaeda and Taliban havens in the semiautonomous region of Pakistan along the Afghan border.

"Some of the disconcerting things reported are exactly why the president ordered a three-month policy review and a change in strategy," said one administration official, who couldn't confirm that the documents were authentic but said that at least some accounts align with information given Obama and his staff last summer.

Jones, meanwhile, said the U.S. and its allies have scored several significant blows against the insurgency since then.

"Yet the Pakistani government and Pakistan's military and intelligence services must continue their strategic shift against insurgent groups," he said. "The balance must shift decisively against Al Qaeda and its extremist allies. U.S. support for Pakistan will continue to be focused on building Pakistani capacity to root out violent extremist groups, while supporting the aspirations of the Pakistani people."

WikiLeaks made no effort to contact the U.S. government about the documents, said Jones, who added that the administration learned from news organizations that the documents would be posted. He called the leaks "irresponsible."

The New York Times, in a note to readers, said it had "taken care not to publish information that would harm national security interests."

"There are times when the information is of significant public interest, and this is one of those times," the note reads. "The documents illuminate the extraordinary difficulty of what the United States and its allies have undertaken in a way that other accounts have not."

cparsons@latimes.com
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      07-27-2010, 10:55 AM   #2
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meh.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...tan?intcmp=239


also, the pakistanis probably remember back to the 80s, when the US left the region after arming and training these wingnuts--today, as in the 80s, they probably will have to reach some sort of accomodation w/ these unstable elements that straddle the border. i imagine its like living next to a bipolar neighbor that also has a gun fetish.
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      07-27-2010, 11:48 AM   #3
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It's called hedging your bets and it's obvious that those in Washington since 2001 have been suffereing a decade long bout of amnesia regarding afghan history. We really do have some intelligent people making irresponsible decisions at the highest levels.
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      07-27-2010, 08:13 PM   #4
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This is old news. Read the book "DESCENT INTO CHAOS" and many others. Iran and Pakistan are basically running the TB. The US has (for years) given money, support, military hardware and other good to the Paki's. We are funding the TB.
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      07-28-2010, 05:39 PM   #5
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Americans have funded all their enemies at some point.
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      08-04-2010, 04:15 PM   #6
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Every war is different and sides change.... Its been happening since Cain and Able.... Ideas change, and leaders change. Its the way the world works.
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      08-04-2010, 04:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Americans have funded all their enemies at some point.
And why not - its realpolitique. The CIA directly armed and trained the Afghan mudjeheddin to fight the Soviets, Bin Laden himself included. America then feted their Taliban decendents hoping they would allow UNOCAL into the country to give them access to central asian gas and oil. Donald Rumsfeld famously went to Iraq to do business with Saddam Hussein - he was fighting revolutionary Iran.

Why is the west supporting Pakistan now? Because (a) its already partly under the control of the Taliban and (b) it has nuclear weapons. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be in Afghanistan. The west cannot defeat their warlords, we will rack up year after year after year of casualties until eventually we pull out in defeat just like the Soviets. Nor was there ever a reason to be in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was a sideshow quickly forgotten.

But Pakistan? It needs our support because otherwise we risk arming the Islamic crazies with nukes. Which would be bad.
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      08-05-2010, 10:21 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
And why not - its realpolitique. The CIA directly armed and trained the Afghan mudjeheddin to fight the Soviets, Bin Laden himself included. America then feted their Taliban decendents hoping they would allow UNOCAL into the country to give them access to central asian gas and oil. Donald Rumsfeld famously went to Iraq to do business with Saddam Hussein - he was fighting revolutionary Iran.

Why is the west supporting Pakistan now? Because (a) its already partly under the control of the Taliban and (b) it has nuclear weapons. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be in Afghanistan. The west cannot defeat their warlords, we will rack up year after year after year of casualties until eventually we pull out in defeat just like the Soviets. Nor was there ever a reason to be in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was a sideshow quickly forgotten.

But Pakistan? It needs our support because otherwise we risk arming the Islamic crazies with nukes. Which would be bad.


It all boils down to what colonial power decided to draw the boundries of these countries to begin with. I think that power should clean up this mess.

I'm joking about the clean up part, but the reality is that the world is still paying for colonialism of the 1800's. Africa and the ME are perfect examples.
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      08-05-2010, 09:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I'm joking about the clean up part, but the reality is that the world is still paying for colonialism of the 1800's. Africa and the ME are perfect examples.
+1. Well said. Very few people realize how far back these conflicts really go. We're now reaping what was sown 50+ years ago.
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      08-06-2010, 01:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
+1. Well said. Very few people realize how far back these conflicts really go. We're now reaping what was sown 50+ years ago.
50? Try 100+. It goes back to World War I (and before). Thus Socom's comment "That power should clean up this mess."

Give me a E... (because Scotland was just dragged along).

In the great sweep of history Balfour may come off worse than Hitler. Which would prove that evil can not trump incompetent and arrogance.

But there is a lot of money to be made in either case.
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      08-06-2010, 04:29 AM   #11
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This is what surprises me about western power's will to invade Afghanistan - its been done many times and always ends in defeat.

Listening to the news on the radio and watching the excellent English language version of Al Jazeera TV news its been made clear that the Pakistanis always believed our adventure in Afghanistan would end in defeat. Their policy has been to plan for what happens after that defeat. If that's "looking both ways" as David Cameron put it then it seems sensible enough from their perspective.

Bush might have said you're either with us or against us, but here on planet Earth its not as black and white.
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      08-06-2010, 08:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
This is what surprises me about western power's will to invade Afghanistan - its been done many times and always ends in defeat.

Listening to the news on the radio and watching the excellent English language version of Al Jazeera TV news its been made clear that the Pakistanis always believed our adventure in Afghanistan would end in defeat. Their policy has been to plan for what happens after that defeat. If that's "looking both ways" as David Cameron put it then it seems sensible enough from their perspective.

Bush might have said you're either with us or against us, but here on planet Earth its not as black and white.
Back in 2001 there weren't a lot of people who wanted to listen to the mantra of "Uh..Invade Afghanistan? Kinda like what the Russians tried to do in the 1980's?"

My only guess is that the powers at be thought this would be different than what happenned to the Russians because the Taliban was a brutal regime and there was a tremendous amount of support within AF (ie. Northern Alliance) to push them out.

I guess we felt at the time that then Paki Pres. Musharraf would be able to fulfill his side of the bargin (The US gave billions in aid and weapons). Unfortunately we underestimated the importance Pakistan and the ISI placed on the Kashmir region and it's quarrel with India.

We should've known that when we weren't given the ability to operate out of Pakistan in addtion to the "save haven" in the western tribal zone that we could not be successful.

The US had a chance to end that war within the first 3 yrs, and Pakistan was instrumental in preventing that from happenning.
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      08-06-2010, 08:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 742 View Post
50? Try 100+. It goes back to World War I (and before). Thus Socom's comment "That power should clean up this mess."

Give me a E... (because Scotland was just dragged along).

In the great sweep of history Balfour may come off worse than Hitler. Which would prove that evil can not trump incompetent and arrogance.

But there is a lot of money to be made in either case.
Yeah Ultimately should be Europe's problem.
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      08-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #14
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Nothing new. It's a catch 22. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
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      08-06-2010, 12:09 PM   #15
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Nothing new. It's a catch 22. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
agreed.
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      10-11-2010, 07:05 PM   #16
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^^^

From reading your posts you clearly link terrorism with Islam, muslims and the middle east which is a lie. You also claim 90% of terrorist acts are to do with muslims. The human race has been around for thousands of years and do you even know how many wars took place on the land you live before it came what it became today?

Use your common sense. It's not like land was divided among men since the beginning of time. On the contrary there have been so many bloody wars and acts of terror in which land changed hands. For you to just tie Islam with terrorism and war is a ludicrous idea. The truth is ALL men fight for what they believe. It's the same fuckin reason you have Bush/Blair's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan today. It shows people will always kill but then try to justify it for whatever reason.

Just because you think you are right it doesnt mean you are right. Everyone thinks they are right. Similarly just because you say someone is wrong that doesnt mean they are, it's just your opinion.
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      10-12-2010, 01:06 AM   #17
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This is old news, dating back to the formation of the TB and AQ.

Government intelligence services/FISS are all over -- take a look into a more overt example of Iranian Qods/ISCI/Badr/MOIS and their influence in Iraq, especially Shia Iraq. Remember 'roving death squads' and 'Shia hit teams' ? Yeah.
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      10-12-2010, 01:10 AM   #18
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And, Teufelhunde, the novelty is dying quickly with you. I suggest you take advantage of a military education program and read more.
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      10-12-2010, 03:24 AM   #19
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I can respect that....but take it from a person who has seen with his own eyes on the front.....there is bad and good in everybody...im not denying that....but don't talk to me about history....i know history that you would never know. The only way to know...is if you stepped foot on those yellow foot prints like I did....but once again I dont think you did sir,....The marine corps dates history back to when america was just starting to breathe. Fighting for protection of self,family and country (for honor for courage for country) for freedom mainly. Not brutal terrositic acts, you know beheading people, so that afterwards they can yell out god is great really wow..you want to talk about the islam world. I'll tell you what it's really about...brutally killing their own infants I dont think is anything humane by any means. Firing a rifle at your enemy to protect your own people protect" not kill everyone like conan! Hint germany america ww2 was nasty but was respected by both sides. There was some kind of respect for each other even though they were enemies, but japan WW2 it wasn't that way, which makes sense look at Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941. A back stabbing coward attack and they also fought our marines and saliors that way once they faced us on ground iwo jima (the famous flag raising), 3 days into a 37 day battle feb.23rd 1945, quadacanal,tarrawa...let's keeep going shall we! Quadacanal is were the most highly decorated Italian American in America's Armed Forces John Basilone, LIVED to recieve the Medal of Honor our nations highest award, he was promoted from sgt. right to gunnery sergeant cause of his actions and gave his life on iwo jima, only to be awarded the purple heart for injury and the navy cross our nations second highest award. which if you knew your history would know that the pacific theatre was controlled by Marines. As the tip of the spear infantry force for america, our army was in europe the pacific was up to the marine corps so we really wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Marine Corps. My great aunt vicky still living was a CPL enlisted in the marine corps as one of the first women marines during WW2 Victoria Pavone. Way back when the romans etc. they respected their enemies......but troops SOLDIERS,MARINES,Saliors,SPARTANS,ROMANS. Ones who fought for their land....have respect for the ones they fight with but most of all the ones they are fighting against! Once again none of you will understand this unless your were in my shoes. I DON"T and the marine corps doesn't allow brutal act's of terrorism to go on especially in our own country, flying planes into a building, suicide bomber driving a ten ton into the us embassy guarded by marines, in the 80's beruit. Don't tell me my friend this is just beyond hate these acts, can't be reasoned there is no punishment harsh enough for people like this ..it doesn't matter who is commiting them.....but it just so happens to be the ones who are the biggest threat to any nation right now are muslim extremists (terrorists). But yes obviously there has been many other terrorists. Hitler, and remember what I said the german soldiers under hitler's command besides,...besides waffen ss didn't want to be under hitler's command but were forced threatened and feared what would happen to them same happened to italy under mosilini how do i know this my grandfather to give you your history lesson volunteered ARMY WW2 Infantry BEG RED ONE division, if you have any idea what that is. He stormed a beach on june 6th 1944 at 0515 hours thats 515 am in your language. ooo D-day if your still confused is a abrevation of death day cause the U.S casualties was at the highest in a two days that america ever seen. Something like 170,000 troops k.i.a and m.i.a, it was the largest military operation for U.S, aprox 1500 survived and he was able to tell me his story, He also recievd 2 bronze stars for valor, and the purple heart Cpl DAVID S PITTELLI, so thank him for his service aahhhaaa Americans dont do that anymore thats a lost art from the 40's. I'm one of 18 in my italian american family to serve good imigrants i know this! ...Saddam H. the world is a better place without him.....and i know from my fellow soldiers, and my fellow marines and myself being their in 06'. It's a free bagdad now..and more peaceful. I hope all we sacraficed went to good use....but the fact that terroists rearing their heads here and there in all cultures is bound to happen......groups upon groups, upon groups,formating into a "militia", that is only going on mainly in the islam, muslim and middleeast, these are not soldiers who deserve respect, soldiers are professionals who are liberators not conquerers.....and warriors.

So go read up on your military liberal one...first tell me what teufelhunde even means then come talk to me until then....your knowledge of grabbing information from t.v's and media or whatever you read is here say....mine is hands on pal....oo my father served in vietnam and my uncle SPEC 4 William J C. another shitty coward enemy we faced but i din't agree with us being so does he. BU america treated our Vietnam vets like shit!!!! They are not the politicans they are just soldiers protecting and serving. Lets treat our troops with respect dammit. OOO and his father served WW2 my grandpa PFC William C. C. infantry battle of the buldge.

I'm living walking history.

Semper-fidelis

if you even know what that old historical saying is...

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem."
— Ronald Reagan

Semper Fidelis is Latin for "Always Faithful". Well known in the United States as the motto of the U.S. Marine Corps (and often shortened to Semper Fi in Marine contexts), Semper fidelis has served as a slogan for many families and entities, in many countries, dated to have been started no later than the 16th century.

TeufelHunde, allegedly meaning Devil Dogs in German, is a motivational nickname for a U.S. Marine.

According to tradition in the United States Marine Corps, the moniker was used by German soldiers to describe U.S. Marines who fought in the Battle of Belleau Wood in 1918. The Marines fought with such ferocity that they were likened to "Dogs from Hell."


I only pay attention to important history

Not history of anti-americans



Look at that muslim army officer fort hood....haaa

He was supposed to help troops adjust to civilan life when they come home from the middleeast...instead what does he do....he commits a "god is great" act. That just seems to run in muslim blood.....you want me to drop a couple of more attacks they have done to us my friend...flight 93 let's not forget that, and those heoric american men that brought that plane down in PA. They werent' muslim americans no im pretty sure they were white pal infact i know they were cause they were able to call there loved ones before they went down, ive seen there pictures traditional white american men...i wish those men were here so i could shake there hand...god only knows where that plan was heading.


UNCOMMON VALOR IS A COMMON VIRTUE

IM AMERICAN AND PROUD TO BE ONE.

2,977 in total 9/11 victims will always be in my heart. THEY ARE THE REAON WHY I ENLISTED!

and 1323 us armed forces members K.I.A Afghanistan will always be in my heart

and 4425 us armed forces Iraq also...they are the reason im breathing....

Rest in peace...and GOD BLESS AMERICA.



http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live...F.html?sid=101


Tyler Hicks | The New York Times
Marine Pfc. Eric C mourns with those honoring the anniversary and lost loved ones. Calamusa's friend Donald Robertson was killed on 9/11.
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      10-12-2010, 05:53 AM   #20
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Devil Dog,
Not that I have any issue with the core substance of what you are saying--I don't. But, with respect, the message you are sending is that your service is somehow unique or even special. You know there are plenty of people out there who have served and are serving. Your approach doesn't facilitate discussion or convince others, it's perhaps more likely to turn them off. I recommend that you throttle back just a bit and let your experiences contribute to discussion rather than stop it cold. For your consideration.
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      10-12-2010, 09:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Devil Dog,
Not that I have any issue with the core substance of what you are saying--I don't. But, with respect, the message you are sending is that your service is somehow unique or even special. You know there are plenty of people out there who have served and are serving. Your approach doesn't facilitate discussion or convince others, it's perhaps more likely to turn them off. I recommend that you throttle back just a bit and let your experiences contribute to discussion rather than stop it cold. For your consideration.
Very well said sir.
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      10-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Devil Dog,
Not that I have any issue with the core substance of what you are saying--I don't. But, with respect, the message you are sending is that your service is somehow unique or even special. You know there are plenty of people out there who have served and are serving. Your approach doesn't facilitate discussion or convince others, it's perhaps more likely to turn them off. I recommend that you throttle back just a bit and let your experiences contribute to discussion rather than stop it cold. For your consideration.
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