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      05-12-2010, 01:09 AM   #67
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My laps were significantly faster with DSC off completely. Biggest grip about MDM is corner exit...it cuts in for too long and won't let you get out early enough.
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      05-12-2010, 09:27 AM   #68
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For most people, the car control aids are probably better than nothing. For others, the aids cause more problems than they solve. A truly competent driver will often simultaneously make the correction necessary before or during the input which will necessitate the correction. A stability control system can only react, but good drivers are proactive in their steering and throttle inputs. If I've already added a few degrees of opposite lock anticipating some throttle-on oversteer while accelerating, and the car decides I've slid too much and applies the brakes or cuts power, at best I've lost time, at worst if I needed the car placed where it was going to be without intervention and not where the computer thought I was trying to put it, I might end up hitting something. I've found the vaunted "competition mode" on Z06's lacking in this respect, so I doubt MDM is any better. My car doesn't have it, just "on" or "off" .

Traction control can be sophisticated and predictable enough to be useful on track, and I wish there was a "traction control only" mode instead of yaw control, less yaw control, or nothing on these cars.
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      05-12-2010, 02:24 PM   #69
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There's no shame in using MDM, and in fact, the most advanced racing series have allowed it for years (ala F1, for example). I think whether or not MDM helps or hinders lap times depends on the track. I'm a pretty accomplished driver and racer, yet I could not turn faster laps at a short track without it, and this is my home track (BeaveRun - have had several lap records). However, at a wide-open track (VIR), I have turned faster laps without it. I hope some of you aren't confusing MDM with DSC, because there is a world of difference between them. With me, MDM has never interfered obtrusively, in fact, sometimes I forget if it's on or off. Maybe I'm just that smooth Now DSC, well, there's no question when it's doing its job.
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      05-12-2010, 02:29 PM   #70
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I wish our MDM was like Ferrari's
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      05-12-2010, 03:09 PM   #71
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I have only tracked my E92 three times. Except for the first time out, I have run with all "aids" off. I did not like the "assist" the car was trying to give me in the turns. While I was trying to go, the car was not so willing. I prefer all off.
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      05-13-2010, 08:33 AM   #72
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F1 does not allow traction, stability, or braking assist anymore, and they haven't for a while.

Many sportscar series do allow some driver aids though.
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      05-13-2010, 10:56 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
F1 does not allow traction, stability, or braking assist anymore, and they haven't for a while.

Many sportscar series do allow some driver aids though.
Didn't they create a whole bunch of shit around it?
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      06-11-2010, 06:20 PM   #74
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I will add my experience, I ran with MDM on the whole day I was at Laguna Seca a few weeks ago, I did not find it to intrusive and only came on a few times when I was a bit out of sort(but did not save me). I had rain part of the day and was not throttle steering much so not the best test. I am doing 2 days at buttonwillow tomorrow so I will see how it behaves there.
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      06-15-2010, 02:44 PM   #75
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I ended up disabling it at buttonwillow, found it too intrusive when I had to manhandle/throttle steer the car such as cotton corners. I did spin off at star mazda on the second day, car is getting a detail tomorrow

edit: track map
http://www.buttonwillowraceway.com/race_01.htm
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      06-15-2010, 10:32 PM   #76
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MDM has been pretty intrusive for me, I turn it off.
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      06-16-2010, 02:46 AM   #77
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I have a question... from standstill isnt MDM better to accelerate with?? With the DSC off it seems to just want to sit and spin for too long....
And im sure once you are on the move you can turn it off.
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      06-16-2010, 06:51 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
I have a question... from standstill isnt MDM better to accelerate with?? With the DSC off it seems to just want to sit and spin for too long....
And im sure once you are on the move you can turn it off.
The pedal on the right controls that
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      06-16-2010, 10:38 AM   #79
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I use MDM first few laps out to feel where the car likes to step out. Once I feel comfortable with the track I drop the MDM

I lose a lot of time with it on and I can't 4 wheel slide to get on the power out of the corners accelerating quickly.
Also if you clip an apex to straighten out and launch the car through a corner it drops all the power thinking your car is getting air

But it's a useful learning tool before you throw in the car control

At the time attack practice day I shed 5 seconds once the controls were off and more time once I started getting on it
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      06-16-2010, 10:59 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
I have a question... from standstill isnt MDM better to accelerate with?? With the DSC off it seems to just want to sit and spin for too long....
And im sure once you are on the move you can turn it off.
Aside from a standing start race (which you are not likely to drive an E90 M3 in) on a track, why would you care about starting acceleration?

I do agree that MDM for the street is excellent though, it's really the only way to use the car's power accelerating/merging into traffic.
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      06-19-2010, 01:09 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
There's no shame in using MDM, and in fact, the most advanced racing series have allowed it for years (ala F1, for example). I think whether or not MDM helps or hinders lap times depends on the track. I'm a pretty accomplished driver and racer, yet I could not turn faster laps at a short track without it, and this is my home track (BeaveRun - have had several lap records). However, at a wide-open track (VIR), I have turned faster laps without it. I hope some of you aren't confusing MDM with DSC, because there is a world of difference between them. With me, MDM has never interfered obtrusively, in fact, sometimes I forget if it's on or off. Maybe I'm just that smooth Now DSC, well, there's no question when it's doing its job.
I'm confused by the statement in the above post as my DSC has 3 setting...
1. Off
2. On
3. M Dynamic Mode
To me this means MDM mode is in fact a direct function of DSC. When driving in MDM the DSC is active but less intrusive than if DSC was selected in position 2, i.e. 100% on.

Last edited by Seadog; 06-19-2010 at 01:11 PM. Reason: change the colour of the highlighted text..
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      06-19-2010, 02:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadog View Post
I'm confused by the statement in the above post as my DSC has 3 setting...
1. Off
2. On
3. M Dynamic Mode
To me this means MDM mode is in fact a direct function of DSC. When driving in MDM the DSC is active but less intrusive than if DSC was selected in position 2, i.e. 100% on.
as I read it, both you guys are saying the same thing
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      09-21-2010, 07:28 PM   #83
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r compounds = dsc off
street tires = dsc on
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      09-21-2010, 07:30 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000gsr View Post
r compounds = dsc off
street tires = dsc on
I would say otherway around, if you are losing traction on r-compounds then I would want dsc(mdm) since the threshold is so much higher and will be harder to catch.
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      09-21-2010, 07:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
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I would say otherway around, if you are losing traction on r-compounds then I would want dsc(mdm) since the threshold is so much higher and will be harder to catch.
If you can't catch them....then you're better off learning how to drive with street tires in the rain.
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      02-10-2011, 11:47 PM   #86
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So here is a story for you all. A friend of mine was instructing at Portland International. It rained for two days, and his M5 driving student would just mash the throttle at each corner exit and let the DSC sort things out. It does. This frustrated my friend, and he suggested that the student turn DSC off, but also told him that they would do that in a turn where spin would be safe as he was CONVINCED spin was imminent. Novice student refused, and they went on their merry way enjoying the 400 HP beast with DSC assisted corner exits.

This student had fun, learned about the line, braking, weight transfer and some car control. That student went home with his gorgeous M5 intact.

My friend was driving his Cayman S, with DSC (PSM) off. He had lots of fun drifting through some corners (it rained two days non stop), and felt proud of passing Vipers and M3s. Though the Audis were unbeatable.

Towards the end of the day he was doing about 100 MPH in 4th gear. He was in middle of turn 9 (if you can call it that):



Throttle mashed to the ground, slight steering input, ~6,000 RPM. Basically a moment at the track when you would stretch your neck or your fingers, check your mirrors and gauges and then get ready for the braking zone.

Without any warning to this semi experienced driver, instructor, the rear stepped out to the left and the front grazed the wall (there is a wall on the right side along turn 9) followed by the rear. He had his car towed home.

My friend will always wonder how did he cause the crash. Did he get to close to the wall, did he hit a puddle, did he hit some fall leaves that he should have seen, did his leg twitch, was he too tired after two days and slow to respond to the spin, was he too comfortable and relaxed in turn 9...

So, to answer your question. If you have spare $20K to $50K and burning it would not make a significant difference in your life - by all means MDM off. But if that amount of money is meaningful or worse catastrophic to have to shell out tomorrow, keep DSC or at least MDM on.

And if you do turn it off, make a mental note that you have just doubled or 10x your risk (I do not know the multiplier), and make up for it with attentiveness.

Basically everything you do is risky, and in turn that much more rewarding. Same with MDM. Some people will use a condom and some people will take the risk... But think of the consequences of your decision, do not just go MDM off because your bestest friends in the world on M3 Forum said they do.

I personally will try to use it, if I find it too intrusive I will turn it off in the dry and when I feel super sharp. I will by rule run with it on during the last session of the day - the dangerous one - partially to force myself to slow down when I know I am tired. I will also keep it on in the rain. Spinning going straight when you just do not expect it scares the crap out of me as the straights I use have walls on both sides and I have seen cars in them. Spin on corner exit in 2nd gear I can manage, managing spin at 100 MPH is not something a skid pad exercise taught me. That comes with years of experience, and few cars that show scars. That just takes spinning at 100 MPH few times or I imagine oval experience when you are going very fast yet at a limit of adhesion.
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      02-11-2011, 08:07 AM   #87
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1MORELAP - as an instructor myself, I find various points of your story very troubling. I am glad to hear no one was hurt. The student did the right thing by refusing to take the DSC off on track, clearly they were not ready for it. If the instructor is trying to prove a point about car control, that is what a skid pad is for. A safe place to induce a spin on track? I assume they did not have the whole track to themselves, so that does not exist.
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      02-11-2011, 09:46 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MORELAP View Post
So here is a story for you all. A friend of mine was instructing at Portland International. It rained for two days, and his M5 driving student would just mash the throttle at each corner exit and let the DSC sort things out. It does. This frustrated my friend, and he suggested that the student turn DSC off, but also told him that they would do that in a turn where spin would be safe as he was CONVINCED spin was imminent. Novice student refused, and they went on their merry way enjoying the 400 HP beast with DSC assisted corner exits.

This student had fun, learned about the line, braking, weight transfer and some car control. That student went home with his gorgeous M5 intact.

My friend was driving his Cayman S, with DSC (PSM) off. He had lots of fun drifting through some corners (it rained two days non stop), and felt proud of passing Vipers and M3s. Though the Audis were unbeatable.

Towards the end of the day he was doing about 100 MPH in 4th gear. He was in middle of turn 9 (if you can call it that):



Throttle mashed to the ground, slight steering input, ~6,000 RPM. Basically a moment at the track when you would stretch your neck or your fingers, check your mirrors and gauges and then get ready for the braking zone.

Without any warning to this semi experienced driver, instructor, the rear stepped out to the left and the front grazed the wall (there is a wall on the right side along turn 9) followed by the rear. He had his car towed home.

My friend will always wonder how did he cause the crash. Did he get to close to the wall, did he hit a puddle, did he hit some fall leaves that he should have seen, did his leg twitch, was he too tired after two days and slow to respond to the spin, was he too comfortable and relaxed in turn 9...

So, to answer your question. If you have spare $20K to $50K and burning it would not make a significant difference in your life - by all means MDM off. But if that amount of money is meaningful or worse catastrophic to have to shell out tomorrow, keep DSC or at least MDM on.

And if you do turn it off, make a mental note that you have just doubled or 10x your risk (I do not know the multiplier), and make up for it with attentiveness.

Basically everything you do is risky, and in turn that much more rewarding. Same with MDM. Some people will use a condom and some people will take the risk... But think of the consequences of your decision, do not just go MDM off because your bestest friends in the world on M3 Forum said they do.

I personally will try to use it, if I find it too intrusive I will turn it off in the dry and when I feel super sharp. I will by rule run with it on during the last session of the day - the dangerous one - partially to force myself to slow down when I know I am tired. I will also keep it on in the rain. Spinning going straight when you just do not expect it scares the crap out of me as the straights I use have walls on both sides and I have seen cars in them. Spin on corner exit in 2nd gear I can manage, managing spin at 100 MPH is not something a skid pad exercise taught me. That comes with years of experience, and few cars that show scars. That just takes spinning at 100 MPH few times or I imagine oval experience when you are going very fast yet at a limit of adhesion.
Why would an instructor allow the student to"just mash the throttle" and not use this as a chance to teach proper throttle control before unleashing him with the nannies off!Personally I turn all the nannies off on track as I find that they are way too instrusive to drive smoothly & fast even in the wet.
With students it is another story and unless the student shows an extremly polished skillset and the MDM is impeding his progress I would never suggest turning the system off.Skidpads should be used for teaching car control skills not on a racetrack where mistakes can come with severe punishment to the student or other participants.
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